New Direction is Best

[Sleeq]

I mentioned a few games that made the transition to 3D with major success (GTA, Final Fantasy, MGS etc) so I'm sure having most classic elements minus the moon logic/unwinnable situations and a bit more serious tone would not be such a bad thing no?

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by Sleeq

I mentioned a few games that made the transition to 3D with major success (GTA, Final Fantasy, MGS etc) so I'm sure having most classic elements minus the moon logic/unwinnable situations and a bit more serious tone would not be such a bad thing no?

You cannot dramatically change the tone of the game and have it be considered a successful transition. The vast majority of games that successfully transitioned into 3D and are now considered classics gained that status precisely BECAUSE the original tone of the series remained intact. Zelda, Mario, Metroid, just to name 3 biggies, were amazing in 3D because they still "felt" exactly like the original games, just in 3D (and therefore better! Or so goes late 90s logic.)

If you change the tone of the game world, what other "classic elements" are even worth keeping? Put another way, the whole reason Mask of Eternity is considered a failure in most fans' eyes is because it didn't "feel" like a King's Quest game. And a HUGE part of that is they darkened the tone and took out most of the humor (among many other things.)

[MusicallyInspired]

Originally Posted by Sleeq

I think for me, it belittles the crisis at hand. Like how in KG5 Graham acts as if his family being captured happens everyday and his dialog and
VA , not to mention his actions don't match the situation.

I don't know if it makes sense or if I worded it correctly...

Well, contrary to popular opinion, it's not really acceptable to go around sulking about your problems and blabbing them to everybody as if they care. He's not an emo blogger. He is a man of integrity. He knows that you have to remain respectable (not only in speech but in behaviour) and that any act of sympathy and kindness towards him in the form of help in his plight would only be as reciprocation. I think his reactions were perfectly fine. It's not like he needs to stop and have a cry all the time and grieve saying "woe is me". He's a man. He's out to get the job done. Sitting around crying isn't going to solve that!

I hate movies and games nowadays because they make that seem like the normal reaction people should have. Everything's so emotional. I'm not against emotion, but there's...so much. EVERYTHING is emotional. It's stupid and unrealistic. Excessive.

[Sleeq]

If you change the tone of the game world, what other "classic elements" are even worth keeping? Put another way, the whole reason Mask of Eternity is considered a failure in most fans' eyes is because it didn't "feel" like a King's Quest game. And a HUGE part of that is they darkened the tone and took out most of the humor (among many other things.)

Putting a bit more seriousness (I stress "a bit") into the story / world with the rest of the elements that we have come to associate with the series does not equal a clone of MoE.

I don't think my suggestion is too extreme... the stress is still on item hunting / puzzling and exploring the realm of Daventry, not action. Hell, action (in the MoE sense) won't even have to be an integral part of the game.

[Sleeq]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

Well, contrary to popular opinion, it's not really acceptable to go around sulking about your problems and blabbing them to everybody as if they care. He's not an emo blogger. He is a man of integrity. He knows that you have to remain respectable (not only in speech but in behaviour) and that any act of sympathy and kindness towards him in the form of help in his plight would only be as reciprocation. I think his reactions were perfectly fine. It's not like he needs to stop and have a cry all the time and grieve saying "woe is me". He's a man. He's out to get the job done. Sitting around crying isn't going to solve that!

I hate movies and games nowadays because they make that seem like the normal reaction people should have. Everything's so emotional. I'm not against emotion, but there's...so much. EVERYTHING is emotional. It's stupid and unrealistic. Excessive.

I agree; but in KQ5 I felt NO emotion at all. Plotwise it was weaker than KQ6 (it had more depth with characters and story).

[BagginsKQ]

most fans' eyes

Probably more like 50/50 of the fans eyes ... Or we wouldn't have nearly this many arguements...

I hate movies and games nowadays because they make that seem like the normal reaction people should have. Everything's so emotional. I'm not against emotion, but there's...so much. EVERYTHING is emotional. It's stupid and unrealistic. Excessive.

What do they call men now adays? Metrosexual?

[MusicallyInspired]

Originally Posted by Sleeq

I agree; but in KQ5 I felt NO emotion at all. Plotwise it was weaker than KQ6 (it had more depth with characters and story).

That's where I disagree. KQ6 was indeed more polished and better presented, but KQ5 is much more interesting to me. That shouldn't be the case if it has no emotion at all. You can chalk that up to bad voice acting for the most part if you wish, but I can still derive some emotion from it. Enough to make it matter.

[BagginsKQ]

Actually I honestly think the non-talkie version was better at projecting emotion than the cd version. The descriptions were sometimes a bit more detailed too.

[Big Ted]

Come on Blackthorne and Lambonius; don't put words in peoples mouths. Kings quest has always been a child friendly series; however most series fans are now grown up.

The dialogue was cringe worthy and a lot of the material was simply presented because of the technology - but I don't hold it against it (the power of nostalgia, and innovative for the time.)

Most of the traditional audience has grown up so as the publisher you have a choice, make a child friendly game like nintendo with in-joke nods to the adults playing, or put a more adult spin on it. Honestly I would be fine with both but way to jump down someone's throat! Not cool man, not cool at all

Is your goal to bully anyone who doesn't agree with you because that's how you came off Blackthorne

[Blackthorne519]

No, I'm not bullying anyone who has a different opinion. I'm merely stating why I find their opinion to be sophomoric and idiotic. They can take it however they want; it's easy to write someone off, especially on the internet - when we're talking about a video game. I'm not saying they're a bad person, but I am saying I wholeheartedly disagree with their myopic vision.

If they can let me make them feel bad about their opinion, they obviously do not have the courage to back their conviction.

Bt

[BagginsKQ]

You have to realize with Lambonious;

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/war...rovocateur.htm



"Enfant Provocateur likes to stir up trouble because...because, well...just because. This species of Flame Warrior is almost always young and male - it could be just a hormone thing."

[MusicallyInspired]

Perhaps it's because so many have submitted this same opinion on "adult-ifying" King's Quest without any real solid backing arguments that it's easy to get fed up with it after so long? I mean honestly, it's not worth having a real conversation, or worth submitting your opinion, if you don't fully understand your own reasons for your opinion other than "I want it", or you don't fully understand where the opposing argument is deriving their reasoning from, no matter how hard they delicately and carefully try to portray it. It's not bullying. It's frustration with the same old thing that is still, after all this time and all these people who have brought it up, without any substance. I haven't seen Lamb or Bt talk down to anybody. Ever. It's moreso been calling people out on their lackluster logic for their opinions.

No opinion is wrong, but if you're going to try to convince others of it you need to have something more than "King's Quest was for kids". No, it wasn't. That's a fact. Or "Making King's Quest modern by making it gritty and serious is the only direction it should go." Why is that exactly? Because that's what everybody else is doing? No. Forcing King's Quest to categorically fit into present day game development strategies is the most anti-King's Quest thing you could do.

King's Quest wasn't just a little simple series of games with colourful backgrounds and childish nuances (at least, not once it really started going around KQ3), it stood for something. It was family-oriented, yes, but it was not childish. It had far more depth than a lot of people here are giving it credit for, I think. And by submitting suggestions like making it more gritty, serious, and emotional is replacing that depth with something far more shallow, which people mistakenly take as depth.

[Big Ted]

My intention is not to provoke anyone.

By my original post I just thought that an up-to-date kings quest would be using the latest technology like they did in the day. Also by adult I am meaning something different here than what you guys are thinking obviously. More along the lines of having better dialogue, atmosphere, effects and setting. Details, details, details, early kings quest was not fleshed out as well as it could have been.

As a side note -
This is what I mean about putting words in peoples mouths. An adult would seek to clarify politely what was meant by the term before spouting off at that person. They would also not assume a whole bunch of stuff based on a single word in a sentence. So yeah a kings quest as a first person shooter, I'm not suggesting that
- funny that!

MusicallyInspired, of course the games were meant for families, just because I suggest a sort of game reboot that I would like does not mean you can't have your idea also. They are not mutually exclusive. I guess the two snow whites in cinema right now is the sort of contrast you imagine. There's not the gap you think there is between what is being espoused by me, you and others.

As a note I think this is demonstrative of why the kings quest franchise has stayed buried for so long. I accept and respect your opinions and your right to have them. I just do not feel like writing an essay to elucidate mine. Maybe it requires imagining something different beyond your preconceptions around what I and others have written? In my post my Amnesia reference was more for the primal sense of dread if you encounter a wolf in the forest. It can be fun to explore new mechanics and a reboot should attempt to do that while staying true to the tone if possible. Maybe climb a tree or hide in bushes using a stealth mechanic or lose the scent by crossing the river until the wolf passes. It would be great if kings quest was again a technology leader!

That primal sense of dread was a key component of kings quest at least for the first 4 iterations.
Also something I think that was missing from later kings quests to a degree. I also advocated puzzle solving and a fully realised world. I did not mention gritty, I didn't say childish etc etc. I think I'm agreeing with Sleeq here mostly, but I would keep humour in it.

[Chyron8472]

@Big Ted,

I refuse to play The Silver Lining. I will not. ever. play it. I played the demo of the first chapter, and was not impressed.

The Silver Lining is the exact sort of "more adult" King's Quest that you're talking about... and from what I've played and what I've heard, it's just so many shades of wrong.

Many people who were children when first playing The Secret of Monkey Island are also adults now; myself among them. I did like Tales of Monkey Island, and thought the darker parts (ie. the middle to end of Chapter 4 and near the end of Chapter 5) were good, but I wouldn't call it "more adult." I wouldn't want to to be so either.




...and @Baggins, I'm not interested in reading these long-ass quotes by people who try to say that KQ games have combat.

It's simple: action + item + "on" + obstacle = solution
obstacle = Monster A
item = object A; object B; object C
IF player chooses object A THEN obstacle flees;
IF player chooses object B THEN obstacle dies.

It's not combat. It's death-by-puzzle.

In any case, at this point I've reiterated myself so many times that I'm not sure if you either just totally miss my point or else are being difficult on purpose.

[Big Ted]

Hey Chyron8472,

Is there something in the water, is it spreading? When did I say I liked the silver lining?? I don't, they took way too many liberties with the characters and the conversations were way too wordy. Too many locations reused from kq6 etc.

That's not what I envisage, try to imagine kings quest done in 3d right like in a storybook, but the main characters have better choice of wardrobe and the puzzles and fairy tales are better fleshed out and your getting closer. Hell if it is in 2d that would still be cool, hmmm, my choice of words is perhaps poor. Perhaps I should simply say I want a more sophisticated kings quest now yes. Replace adult with sophisticated and that about sums it up.



Through to my mind they mean the same thing; Ach! The internet is a dangerous place for the unweary poster...

[MusicallyInspired]

Originally Posted by Big Ted

My intention is not to provoke anyone.

By my original post I just thought that an up-to-date kings quest would be using the latest technology like they did in the day. Also by adult I am meaning something different here than what you guys are thinking obviously. More along the lines of having better dialogue, atmosphere, effects and setting.

I wasn't even referring to anything you've said. I was commenting on what many others have come on here to express and defending Lamb and Bt's stance.

As a side note -
This is what I mean about putting words in peoples mouths. An adult would seek to clarify politely what was meant by the term before spouting off at that person. So yeah a kings quest as a first person shooter, I'm not suggesting that
- funny that!

MusicallyInspired, of course the games were meant for families, just because I suggest a sort of game reboot that I would like does not mean you can't have your idea also. They are not mutually exclusive. I guess the two snow whites in cinema right now is the sort of contrast you imagine. There's not the gap you think there is between what is being espoused by me, you and others.

I don't think I was putting words in you or anyone's mouths, if I did I apologize and please correct me. But again, I said I wasn't referring to anything you specifically stated, but rather what others have come on to say throughout time.

As a note I think this is demonstrative of why the kings quest franchise has stayed buried for so long. I accept and respect your opinions and your right to have them. I just do not feel like writing an essay to elucidate mine. Maybe it requires imagining something different beyond your preconceptions around what I and others have written?

This is kind of the line of thought that I was trying to convey for understanding my/our side of the argument. Once more, I wasn't referring to what you were saying specifically, so your opinion was never the target of my point or argument.

In my post my Amnesia reference was more for the primal sense of dread if you encounter a wolf in the forest. It can be fun to explore new mechanics and a reboot should attempt to do that while staying true to the tone if possible. Maybe climb a tree or hide in bushes using a stealth mechanic or lose the scent by crossing the river until the wolf passes.

That primal sense of dread was a key component of kings quest at least for the first 4 iterations.

Very true. I like the way you're comparing what made King's Quest great in the past to some possible gameplay mechanics of today (not necessarily outright design). It's much easier to imagine something by comparing it to what's out on the market today, rather than what it could be all on its own, while drawing merely some ideas from what's out on the market today. Both (all?) sides of the fence(s?) are probably to blame for this to some degree.

Also something I think that was missing from later kings quests to a degree. I also advocated puzzle solving and a fully realised world. I did not mention gritty, I didn't say childish etc etc.

This is a great example of expressing solid reasoning behind opinions (others should take note here). I agree with much of what you've said here. It also shows that you're not in the same camp as the ones some of us are used to dealing with, something others could specify if they indeed are not either.

I think I'm agreeing with Sleeq here mostly, but I would keep humour in it.

Here is where I get confused. Sleeq is talking about what you've said you aren't talking about. At least what I've taken away from what he's said proves as much to me.

All in all, that was a great post that has (to me) finally added something to this horse-beating conversation topic. Good to see some actual thought-out ideas submitted for a possible future idea of a new King's Quest title. I'm definitely not against progressing things. Heck, I'm in the camp of wanting a new Monkey Island game to be realistic in art style and slightly more sinister in tone. Not grey/brown like CoD or anything, but dark when it needs to be dark. With a maintained and rich colour palette of course. I'm just sick of the overly-cartoony look. I rather like how the original SMI looked. Though, I understand that was never how Ron Gilbert invisioned things (with the realistic close-ups).

Also, yeah Chyron, I don't think what he's saying amounts to anything TSL did.

[Big Ted]

Hey thanks musicallyinspired, that was nice of you

Also FYI, just defending my posts in general for the most part. I still don't follow who said what to who so well in forums, as a rule; it gets confusing very fast. Sorry if I got my wires crossed, and that goes for BlackThorne and Lambonius as well.

With sleeq's comment I was referring to a point he made where he said that a 3d world could still stay faithful. If I read that right, I haven't read all his posts.

[Blackthorne519]

Nah, nah - no offense taken. Just having a conversation about King's Quest in here. Nothing personal!


Bt

[MusicallyInspired]

I definitely agree a 3D world can remain faithful. It'd have to be pretty advanced, though.

[BagginsKQ]

...and @Baggins, I'm not interested in reading these long-ass quotes by people who try to say that KQ games have combat.

LOL, obviously you don't read, since you didn't even get the context of the quotes and paraphrases I posted... Your comment/interpretation of the paragraphs you didn't actually read is so off the mark to show your complete and utter ignorance of what I actually posted!

Talk about jumping to conclusions on your part! ...Or assume too much without actually checking out what you are assuming! "Ass out of U and Me"!