New Direction is Best

[Irishmile]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

That's where I disagree. KQ6 was indeed more polished and better presented, but KQ5 is much more interesting to me. That shouldn't be the case if it has no emotion at all. You can chalk that up to bad voice acting for the most part if you wish, but I can still derive some emotion from it. Enough to make it matter.

I enjoy six alot more but I totally agree with what you've said about five.

[BagginsKQ]

Both are good games. I've enjoyed the alot over the years.

[Sleeq]

No, I'm not bullying anyone who has a different opinion. I'm merely stating why I find their opinion to be sophomoric and idiotic.

I hope you aren't referring to me... I don't think I said anything as such in this topic.

So far no one has replied to my example of Metal Gear transitioning into 3D with massive success and has kept ALMOST ALL elements of the MSX games.

My suggestion is that KQ can do the same if the devs are competent.

Why should I back up my statement with more than this? I write straight to the point without resorting to walls of text.

I know some people here are "orthodox" fans of the series, which is fine, but please accept that the series is seriously outdated and needs some fixing. Unwinnable-by-design is not acceptable anymore.

Have a good read with this:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...eHeartGoYonder

[Blackthorne519]

I'll respond - I don't care for the Metal Gear Solid games. I much prefer the originals - sure, a lot of people do like the Metal Gear Solid games, but the milieu of that game lent itself to a more serious and "darker" tone. It was always a military based, infiltration game. Even the MSX and NES versions had a serious tone - even if localization errors made "I feel asleep" silly.

King's Quest has always been a fairy-tale fantasy adventure. Throwing darker motivations, and more "adult" themes onto it is grafting material on to a base that doesn't deserve it. It's like putting a taco on top of a cake, because it's "Darker™ and more Gritty™".

Bt

PS Oh, also, referencing TVTropes renders all arguments and points completely and utterly invalid.

[Sleeq]

Then it seems I have nothing more to add to this thread.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Blackthorne519

I'll respond - I don't care for the Metal Gear Solid games. I much prefer the originals - sure, a lot of people do like the Metal Gear Solid games, but the milieu of that game lent itself to a more serious and "darker" tone. It was always a military based, infiltration game. Even the MSX and NES versions had a serious tone - even if localization errors made "I feel asleep" silly.

King's Quest has always been a fairy-tale fantasy adventure. Throwing darker motivations, and more "adult" themes onto it is grafting material on to a base that doesn't deserve it. It's like putting a taco on top of a cake, because it's "Darker™ and more Gritty™".

Bt

PS Oh, also, referencing TVTropes renders all arguments and points completely and utterly invalid.

I agree with you for the most part, but I do think an evolution ala Mask did keep the fantasy adventure feel. The story was simple much like the previous games--Bad guy does something which threatens Kingdom--but it did it with a more serious tone, without being "gritty" or having adult themes. If the first 7 KQ games were "The Hobbit", KQ8 was "The Lord of the Rings"--And I think that sort of more serious, more action based transition was appropriate, though it should've been done slower, over the course of a few games perhaps. But the word "gritty" shouldn't be associated with an official KQ game. A fan game is fine--Fans can do whatever they want. But I wouldn't describe Mask as gritty--there's no in depth thing about the character's feelings or emotions. Mask is the proper way to do a "grown up" KQ game.

[MusicallyInspired]

Well, MOE can't be an example of a "proper" anything. It had a fair share of problems and things it could have improved upon. I think the same game with better graphics, a classic inventory system with classic adventure-style puzzles, and more interesting combat and/or arcade action sequences would have been fantastic. As it is, it falls short of what it could be. But it could have been better.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

Well, MOE can't be an example of a "proper" anything. It had a fair share of problems and things it could have improved upon. I think the same game with better graphics, a classic inventory system with classic adventure-style puzzles, and more interesting combat and/or arcade action sequences would have been fantastic. As it is, it falls short of what it could be. But it could have been better.

Yes I agree completely, I just meant the general direction. It's a shame. The story contained in the game, along with the dialogue, was probably Roberta's true masterpiece. It didn't have any of the "cheese" of the earlier games or "moon logic", it had a lot of layers (It wasn't just superficial placements of other mythologies into the game like the early KQ games were). It had the "wide open world/big adventure" feel of KQ5 while expanding on the maturity of KQ6 without being shallow. Such a direction, albeit refined as you said, would be a great approach. I tend to look at Mask as a transitional game, the way KQ5 was; rough around the edges because it was the first of it's kind in the series.

[MusicallyInspired]

Actually, I think the story was the most lackluster of the entire series. Even KQ1. Could have used some work. Didn't really care about Conner, Sarah, or Lucreto. We were just slapped with these new characters and were expected to be connected to them. Doesn't work that way. Some of the ideas were great, though. I loved the idea of a mysterious random wizard using his magic to partially survive the curse and give you pointers. Lots of fantastic ideas that could have been much better.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

Actually, I think the story was the most lackluster of the entire series. Even KQ1. Could have used some work. Didn't really care about Conner, Sarah, or Lucreto. We were just slapped with these new characters and were expected to be connected to them. Doesn't work that way. Some of the ideas were great, though. I loved the idea of a mysterious random wizard using his magic to partially survive the curse and give you pointers. Lots of fantastic ideas that could have been much better.

Well, replace Connor say with Alexander...I mean in KQ1, all we're told in the original is that Graham is a knight. He doesn't speak much at all, and we don't know anything about him. Sort of like Connor, he's a blank slate; he's a tanner, but as the story unfolds, so does him being noble not in blood, but in deed. Sarah was just in the into cutscene...And I don't see why Lucreto isn't interesting. His story is very much akin to the whole Paradise Lost thing: Basically an angel who wanted the power of God for himself. That's a pretty trope , similar to the Grand Vizier wanting control of a Kingdom trope used in KQ6.

[MusicallyInspired]

Yes, but we know nothing about Lucreto. He has no dialogue, no character arc, and barely any on-screen time other than the intro and the very end when he finally speaks to you. With Alhazred he had face time throughout the entire game and we really got to know him and hate him (or love him, depending how masochistic and sadistic you are). Lucreto was ultimately forgettable.

And at least KQ1 had a decent back story for the reasons behind the quest (even if it was only in the manual).

[BagginsKQ]

a classic inventory system with classic adventure-style puzzles

It had the classic inventory system (actually more like KQ7 than say KQ6 inventory style), with click item on something else adventure-style puzzles.

They just feel so far apart from each other, since so much exploration and combat occured in inbetween the puzzles themselves.

It also included alot of Torin's Passage style maze/trap/lava puzzle and chess-like puzzles (kinda like the ones in Zork series)... Which weren't common in any earlier KQ game (only KQ6 had its trap maze, but it was different)...

He has no dialogue, no character arc, and barely any on-screen time other than the intro and the very end when he finally speaks to you.

Actually he has a scene in nearly every world of the game. In which he has dialogue in those scenes. Those scenes also built up a character arc for him. There is about 7-8 appearances total through the game, which develop his character.

You might have overlooked these scenes, they are optional for the most part. They require you clicking on the right place, or being in the right place.

His backstory is discussed quite a bit in several other scenes with the Archon Uriel (similar to learning information from the Oracles in previous games), the Oracle of the Tree, and the marble archons near the end of the game. As well as information about Lucreto given you by the Henchmen you encounter throughout the game.

He has about as many appearances than Malicia had in KQ7 (About five to seven total; 2-3 underground, twice in her house, once in ooga booga, and the ending), or more than Mordack had in KQ5 (3 total)... ...or really more than you saw Alhazred in KQ6 (four total, two cutscenes (with Shamir in his office), a meeting with him, and ending sequence)!

Infact, given his number of appearances, and how many other characters discuss him and his backstory. He is probably one of the most developed villain characters in the entire King's Quest series (without having to resort to any expanded universe material). He is probably as developed as Alhazred and Malicia; while Alhazred didn't have as many appearances, there is alot of characters who refer to him, and give us backstory for him (similar in fashion to Lucreto in this way).

Malicia's background is somewhat explained in the game, but mostly comes from material only mentioned in the official Hintbook. But she does get quite a bit of interaction with many of the characters in the game, and many are able to tell you about her. So she's up there with Lucreto and Alhazred as far as involvement in the game world past and present as mentioned in the game by most of the characters (so you still don't have to go to any outside source to learn alot about her). Unfortunately she's a rather silly villain ...

Not even Mordack, Hagatha, or Manannan got that much background as they do, don't get as many characters referring to their involvement in the world (with those latter two you have to at least go into the manuals to get their backstories). I guess Manannan does a little, as you learn by listening into animal conversations (but most of the animals all state the same thing about him).

Lolotte, has good four to five interactions with the main character, spread throughout entire KQ4, and also one of the more developed villains the series. We know some of her background via interactions with Seven Dwarfs and Genesta. But other than that, she isn't brought into the plot by most other characters in any fashion, to the extent that Lucreto or Alhazred received.

[gamingafter40]

I'm pretty neutral in this debate; as I've said before, I'm just interested in seeing a fresh take on King's Quest. But a thought crossed my mind that might illuminate everyone's perspective on the matter. Do these things, in any order you like:

1) Watch the MGM "The Wizard of Oz" with Judy Garland

2) Watch the Disney "Return to Oz" with Fairuza Balk

Same fictional universe. Some of the same characters. I would even argue that both films have their strong points. But they are VERY different in tone and sensibility; they were made at different times by different people, with different technologies at hand.

3) Ask yourself -- is either of these films more "Oz" than the other?

[Lambonius]

Yeah, but there are only the two Oz movies--in the case of KQ, we have 5, arguably even 6 or 7 entries that share a common light-hearted tone, and one that doesn't. The argument that we're disputing is essentially arguing in favor of taking the one out of 8 games with a darker tone and using that as a jumping off point for the new game that is supposed to appeal to old fans and new players alike. It doesn't make sense.

[BagginsKQ]

Even KQ8 is relatively lighthearted compared to other games in the series, and in comparison to other game series. Roberta placed her kind of inherent sillyness or whimsy into most of the good characters an even into some of the lesser villains. Some argue that KQ3 is the darkest in someways. Even KQ4 in some ways.

Although I'd argue it is the fan games try to make the series dark and "gritty". .

[MusicallyInspired]

I wouldn't call any of AGDI or IA's games dark at all. KQ2+ is moody at best. But not dark or gritty. It's very whimsical in more places than not and also very storybook-colourful. Even TSL has light-hearted moments. But the core plot is definitely dark in that case.

[gamingafter40]

Originally Posted by Lambonius

Yeah, but there are only the two Oz movies--in the case of KQ, we have 5, arguably even 6 or 7 entries that share a common light-hearted tone, and one that doesn't. The argument that we're disputing is essentially arguing in favor of taking the one out of 8 games with a darker tone and using that as a jumping off point for the new game that is supposed to appeal to old fans and new players alike. It doesn't make sense.

The point I was trying to make is that there should be room in any fictional universe for different interpretations of the source material. There should be something recognizably consistent at the heart of each work, but "tone" isn't really the distinguishing factor some people seem to think it is.

I think there's room in the KQ world for Graham to have an adventure where he helps rescue a mama bunny's children from a thicket, as well as one where he rescues his own children from an evil wizard. And either of those stories could be told in a light-hearted vein (bumbling wizard) or dark (bunny-devouring grues.) I don't think I'd expect or want to see a story where Graham kidnaps and kills someone else's children; that seems to me TOO dark for KQ, even if he were under a spell of some kind.

[BagginsKQ]

Graham kidnaps and kills someone else's children; that seems to me TOO dark for KQ, even if he were under a spell of some kind.

Already happened, in KQ3 He sent up to 17 young virgins to their deaths to be sacrificed to the three-headed dragon! I would have to assume they were 'someone' else's children!

[gamingafter40]

Originally Posted by BagginsKQ

Already happened, in KQ3 He sent up to 17 young virgins to their deaths to be sacrificed to the three-headed dragon! I would have to assume they were 'someone' else's children!

I dunno, that Graham gets around a lot and he works awfully fast. How long is it between the time he forces his way into Valanice's tower and the time he kisses her? About 30 seconds? We know what that King is Questing for, awwwwyeah.

[BagginsKQ]

One sacrifice a year, Rosella is the last. That's up to 18 maidens total, if the dragon showed up right after Alexander was kidnapped!