[Ep1-3, SPOILERS]Team Lilly vs. Team Kenny (merged threads)

[CapnJay]

Originally Posted by zenstrata

kenny is not a dark knight. he's a flipping moron who only cares about his immediate family and is completely disloyal to anyone who doesn't do exactly what he wants all the time.

So was the illusive man but he got his own dark knight quote poster so i figured one coward gets it so should another

[ZombieGoBoom]

Originally Posted by reno2200

I don't mind having Lilly in charge. If you side with her, she really softens up towards you. First and foremost, my Lee is a solid role model to Clem. Lilly puts the group first, whereas Kenny acts on what he thinks is best. It's not about taking risks, it's about taking unnecessary risks. Did checking the barn REALLY achieve anything? Couldn't Kenny have waited a little longer in the meat locker? Why not MAKE A PLAN before running off unarmed after these gun-wielding maniacs who clearly have no qualms with killing the non-undead? Lilly keeps everyone going, Kenny makes a mess, my Lee picks up the pieces.

I think there will be a divide between Team Lilly and Team Kenny (in-game and on these forums, no doubt) and, unless Carley gives me a convincing argument to the contrary, I'm thinking Lilly is the one I should stick with. I think she's going to be ridiculously loyal to and defensive of the group instead of Kenny only caring about his immediate family.

If I had to put money on the cause of the big argument in the Episode 3 trailer, I'd say it's something to do with Kenny's family. If there was anyone able to "screw it up for everyone," it'd have to be Kenny or Duck, right?

I think Kenny's RV breaks down and that causes the blowup with Lilly. Everyone climbing into one vehicle with no second one for a backup and in zombie country is a bad idea if you are stuck in the middle of nowhere. While having a secure location (the Motel) is nice but in an area with no more food is just as bad.

[Kinky John Fowler]

Originally Posted by Kaapo

I don't think Kenny is all about taking risks. Making things happen, sure, but sometimes making things happen is safer than sitting around.

I'm referring to the meat locker scene. Kenny wants to act preemptively to protect the entire group, while Lilly doesn't care about the risks and continues trying to revive her father (not that I blame her for it). The game seems to put a lot of importance on this particular choice so it's safe to assume it's supposed to reflect Kenny's character quite accurately.

In any event I've preferred Kenny's approach to things so far. Lee would probably be the best leader now that Larry doesn't give him trouble anymore, but I think that might make the game less interesting.

Even once you've stopped breathing you have about 5 minutes or so before your body starts to shut down (hence CPR which Lee was trying to do before that idiot decided to step in), so you are looking at 5 mintes at the very least before he would have turned. Kenny acting preemptively did absolutely nothing in terms of favouring the group.

[greenj2]

Kenny can make a fine ally, but you've got to be with him 100% or not at all. Following the events of episode 2, I'm keen to work on my relationship with Lilly and see if she proves to be more reliable.

It was good to see a few dialogue options in episode 2 which allowed Lee to cast himself into more of a leadership role within the group. It's still early days and I'm interested to see how that develops.

Personally, I like to go with my gut on tough decisions and not worry too much about forming and shattering alliances with specific group members. That said, I also prefer to deal with group conflict through reasoning and influence, rather than simply barking orders at people. It's great that both those approaches have been made available throughout the story so far.

[Jazzy]

Originally Posted by Kinky John Fowler

Even once you've stopped breathing you have about 5 minutes or so before your body starts to shut down (hence CPR which Lee was trying to do before that idiot decided to step in), so you are looking at 5 mintes at the very least before he would have turned. Kenny acting preemptively did absolutely nothing in terms of favouring the group.

We don't know that's when they turn however, it doesn't seem like 5 minutes for the guy at the beginning who turns though it's not clear when exactly he dies. Look at it from the perspective of the characters, they don't know when the transformation occurs, whether you actually have to be dead to turn (for all they know they could all be slowly turning it just speeds up when you die), and hell I doubt Kenny, Lily or Lee even know themselves how long it takes for the body to shut down.

[Jazzy]

Originally Posted by Kaapo

Another good option would be to have Lilly and Kenny continue their power struggle, and Lee, being the most influential member of the remaining group, could decrease the authority of one by constantly siding with the other, up to the point where whichever one has been receiving Lee's support (Kenny or Lilly) becomes the undisputed leader of the group, and the other falls into line or even leaves the group entirely.

Why would you want to do that? Neither of them are people I'd want leading the group, Kenny only cares about his family and Lily would have you all starve because you 'have a routine'. Neither of them have shown any leadership qualities and both of them only really care about their own interests and being undisputed leaders just means they get to run roughshod over the group and force their needs upon the others.

[Kaapo]

Originally Posted by Jazzy

Why would you want to do that? Neither of them are people I'd want leading the group, Kenny only cares about his family and Lily would have you all starve because you 'have a routine'. Neither of them have shown any leadership qualities and both of them only really care about their own interests and being undisputed leaders just means they get to run roughshod over the group and force their needs upon the others.

I was talking about good options in terms of gameplay. I just have the feeling if Lee becomes the sole leader of the group, he might become distanced from the others and merely start issuing orders and making decisions instead of the close interaction with most group members which has been going on so far. In reality I wouldn't necessarily want either of them leading the group, but in the game I'd definitely take Kenny as the least of 3 evils. And I could imagine if people start thinking of it as a game, so would other Kenny or, respectively, Lilly supporters.

[Kaapo]

Originally Posted by Lars80

Kenny is a coward piece of shit who only cares about his familly.

First he saved Duck and abandoned Shawn.
Then he froze when Danny pointed the gun at Lee and didnt do anything. Lilly came in and saved the day.

Lilly and Carley have proven themself. Kenny? Well, he has a tendency to disappoint when he is really needed.

I just imagine that after abandoning everyone else to follow Kenny. he will leave me behind. Probably sailing off into the sunset with his boat leaving me with a large horde of walkers back at the docks.

Kenny does save you against Danny in the barn, if you help him smash Larry's head. If you don't, he's probably just thinking "This guy just let me down big time, I'm not risking my ass to save him."

TTG could and should have made that decision more balanced, since too many people seem to compare this game to a real life situation, which led the majority of them to try and do CPR on Larry even though in gameplay (i.e. purely logical) terms people would just be happy of his demise and only choosing based on who they want to stay on good terms with, Kenny or Lilly. This means the factors are somewhere between 50% and 75% in favor of siding with Lilly, and after Kenny's actions in the barn the people with a realistic mindset probably decided they don't even want to do another playthrough to see what would follow choosing to side with Kenny.

Aside from this, siding with Kenny causes Lilly to just stand there and watch as Andy's about to push you into the fence, well knowing Clem is standing right next to her and about to see her protector get electrocuted. That's just as bad as if not worse than Kenny leaving you to fend for yourself against Danny.

[Lars80]

Originally Posted by Kaapo

Kenny does save you against Danny in the barn, if you help him smash Larry's head. If you don't, he's probably just thinking "This guy just let me down big time, I'm not risking my ass to save him."

TTG could and should have made that decision more balanced, since too many people seem to compare this game to a real life situation, which led the majority of them to try and do CPR on Larry even though in gameplay (i.e. purely logical) terms people would just be happy of his demise and only choosing based on who they want to stay on good terms with, Kenny or Lilly. This means the factors are somewhere between 50% and 75% in favor of siding with Lilly, and after Kenny's actions in the barn the people with a realistic mindset probably decided they don't even want to do another playthrough to see what would follow choosing to side with Kenny.

Aside from this, siding with Kenny causes Lilly to just stand there and watch as Andy's about to push you into the fence, well knowing Clem is standing right next to her and about to see her protector get electrocuted. That's just as bad as if not worse than Kenny leaving you to fend for yourself against Danny.

Well. It goes against my values to smash a mans head while his daughter is trying to revive him. We could have smashed that head after Larry had turned.
This is why Kenny isnt fit to be the leader of the group, and i wont follow him. He got social skills of a 10 year old boy with the asberger syndrome.

1. Kenny sacrificed Shawn to save his own skin.
2. He trashed Larry's head before he had turned.
3. And he failed to help Lee in the barn.

The only people Kenny is willing to help out when shit hits the fan is his own familly. Everyone else is an expendable asset.

Now i am curious to see how Lilly turns out without her father in Ep3. I am guessing she leaves early on and never return.

[Xarne]

its crazy to say 'oh we'll kill him after he turns' dude is what? 6'4 3000lbs?
a little scrawny walker girl can take a man out- how do you think they can escape him in that tiny meat locker? All that would have to happen is him open his eyes, reach out and bite- then its 2 down 3 to go.

Kenny acted too fast. It would have taken 20-30 more seconds to talk to Lily to say her goodbyes or at least try to explain to her what's going to happen if we dont act- one way or the other.

I love how he likes to pull you off to the side and talk about all the shit you two are going to get into over HIS actions. 1st replay I tried to downplay and console him...every playthrough since I berate this shit out of him.
Kenny acts like he's the president and the First Family must survive over all others no matter the cost. Im sure everyone is THINKING the same but like they say, actions speak louder than words and his actions are saying 'I dont care about a goddamn person on this Earth but my family'. People will start to pick up on that real fast

[Sisterofshane]

Originally Posted by Jazzy

We don't know that's when they turn however, it doesn't seem like 5 minutes for the guy at the beginning who turns though it's not clear when exactly he dies. Look at it from the perspective of the characters, they don't know when the transformation occurs, whether you actually have to be dead to turn (for all they know they could all be slowly turning it just speeds up when you die), and hell I doubt Kenny, Lily or Lee even know themselves how long it takes for the body to shut down.

This was my problem with anyone who wants to delay the whole situation. Exactly when does the virus know that someone has "died", and then take over? What if it happens at the moment someone is clinically dead (the moment that the heart and brain stop working to keep the body alive)? If that IS the case, then Larry was about to turn at any moment, and Lee and Lilly were stupidly sitting right next to him, waiting to get the "chomp".

Even one of the devs who was on the "Larry was Alive?" thread confirmed that they INTENDED the "lip movement" to be a questioning moment - was Larry being revived, or was he about to turn into a Walker? Ultimately they SAID that the CPR was working, but we couldn't have known that in the moment.

Trying to save Larry is taking a HUGE risk with very little payoff. This is probably the one time within the game that Kenny is not willing to gamble his life. You can bet the tables would have been turned had it been Katjaa lying there - with Kenny begging you to save her and Lily being the proponent to smash her head in.

[Sisterofshane]

Originally Posted by Xarne

its crazy to say 'oh we'll kill him after he turns' dude is what? 6'4 3000lbs?
a little scrawny walker girl can take a man out- how do you think they can escape him in that tiny meat locker? All that would have to happen is him open his eyes, reach out and bite- then its 2 down 3 to go.

Kenny acted too fast. It would have taken 20-30 more seconds to talk to Lily to say her goodbyes or at least try to explain to her what's going to happen if we dont act- one way or the other.

I love how he likes to pull you off to the side and talk about all the shit you two are going to get into over HIS actions. 1st replay I tried to downplay and console him...every playthrough since I berate this shit out of him.
Kenny acts like he's the president and the First Family must survive over all others no matter the cost. Im sure everyone is THINKING the same but like they say, actions speak louder than words and his actions are saying 'I dont care about a goddamn person on this Earth but my family'. People will start to pick up on that real fast

I don't think you could have EVER given Lily enough time to say goodbye. Maybe to convince her that CPR was useless, but her emotional state was pretty much shattered the moment he hit the floor. My grandfather passed away two summers ago, and we had known for months that he was going to leave. My mother is STILL reeling from the impact of his death.

Besides, put yourself in Kenny's shoes - would YOU ever put anyone else over your family? Would your Lee ever put anyone's life ahead of Clementine's safety? Kenny's character flaw is that he reacts without thinking everything through, not that his family is more important to him than anyone else.

[TrickyZombie]

Originally Posted by zenstrata

kenny is not a dark knight. he's a flipping moron who only cares about his immediate family and is completely disloyal to anyone who doesn't do exactly what he wants all the time.

Well said. Kenny isn't worth the time it took to post up that pic, let alone be compared to the Dark Knight himself!

What we need to see is a LEE that's in control of the group. Have his role akin to Rick from the Walking Dead. Put the tough decisions on Lee, and watch the weight of his choices unfold for the better or worse of the group. Have choices affect the development of LEE's character- seeing a man with a broken past determined to protect the new family he forms through the zombie outbreak, or destroy their chances for survival through poor decision-making. Him being Clementine's caretaker adds fire to the already blazing narrative Telltale has put forth.

I don't want to control a character with tough choices, who isn't the leader; I want to have the tough choices as leader, to witness the various ramifications surrounding my group from the choices I made. What made The Walking Dead comics so intruiging to me, was the adversity Rick went through to keep his group alive amidst a zombie epidemic, even though "humanity" turned out to be the biggest threat. Instilling that sense of a being a leader in a savage world, I think, would make The Walking Dead game really shine.

[Kinky John Fowler]

Originally Posted by Xarne

its crazy to say 'oh we'll kill him after he turns' dude is what? 6'4 3000lbs?
a little scrawny walker girl can take a man out- how do you think they can escape him in that tiny meat locker? All that would have to happen is him open his eyes, reach out and bite- then its 2 down 3 to go.

Kenny acted too fast. It would have taken 20-30 more seconds to talk to Lily to say her goodbyes or at least try to explain to her what's going to happen if we dont act- one way or the other.

I love how he likes to pull you off to the side and talk about all the shit you two are going to get into over HIS actions. 1st replay I tried to downplay and console him...every playthrough since I berate this shit out of him.
Kenny acts like he's the president and the First Family must survive over all others no matter the cost. Im sure everyone is THINKING the same but like they say, actions speak louder than words and his actions are saying 'I dont care about a goddamn person on this Earth but my family'. People will start to pick up on that real fast

I said it in the other thread like but you don't instantly die when your heart stops, your body wont shut down for minutes to come. There was a lot of time to try and revive him/Lilly to say her goodbyes ect. Absolutely no need at all for that daft sod to do what he did.

I've literally never hated a video game character this much before.

[jaybreezy]

Originally Posted by Zeekay980

All of Kenny's decisions are about taking risks. A lot of them unnecessary or not that thought out. "We break the lock and see what they're hiding. If those farmers give us trouble we take em' out" or something like that. Let's not forget rushing to rescue his family without even grabbing a weapon or looking for the other brother. Some are sensible risks like we have to leave our safe haven otherwise we starve. Lilly is all about playing it safe. She doesn't want any new people because they are unknowns and extra mouths to feed. She doesn't want to risk leaving a place they know is safe to try to find someplace with more food that might not exist. When given enough suspicions about the farm, she suggests just leaving without snooping around or getting dinner. She also doesn't want to loot the car because it might not be abandoned and she doesn't want to risk fucking up somebody's life. The only time they are reversed is with Larry for obvious reasons. Just my two cents.

I dont know if its as black and white as that.

Kenny decided to do what he did in the freezer to keep the group safe, not doing that would've been the risk imo. So here, Kenny was playing it safe.

Taking the food from the car was playimg it safe because without it the group or someone within the group could starve so again it could be seen as Kenny playing it safe.

[Kinky John Fowler]

Originally Posted by Lars80

1. Kenny sacrificed Shawn to save his own skin.

To be fair any father would and SHOULD do this, it's the fact he then ran away afterward and left a poor young man who had helped provide him shelter to die a horrific death. All he needed to do was grab a leg and pull.

[jaybreezy]

Originally Posted by Kinky John Fowler

I said it in the other thread like but you don't instantly die when your heart stops, your body wont shut down for minutes to come. There was a lot of time to try and revive him/Lilly to say her goodbyes ect. Absolutely no need at all for that daft sod to do what he did.

I've literally never hated a video game character this much before.

Yes, but how do we know that the virus doesn't do it's thing as soon as the heart stops. Not worth the risk to take a chance an revive him imo. And I'd kill him again if I could... Oh yeah I did.. On the second playthrough.

[Kinky John Fowler]

Originally Posted by jaybreezy

I dont know if its as black and white as that.

Kenny decided to do what he did in the freezer to keep the group safe, not doing that would've been the risk imo. So here, Kenny was playing it safe.

Taking the food from the car was playimg it safe because without it the group or someone within the group could starve so again it could be seen as Kenny playing it safe.

Helping Shawn would be keeping the group safe, attacking the guy pointing a gun a Lee would be keeping the group safe, not shouting "are you Friendlies" at a bunch of zombies 100 ft away would be keeping the group safe etc etc. The man is a total coward and an idiot.

[jaybreezy]

Originally Posted by Kinky John Fowler

To be fair any father would and SHOULD do this, it's the fact he then ran away afterward and left a poor young man who had helped provide him shelter to die a horrific death. All he needed to do was grab a leg and pull.

Exactly..

"Oh man my sons in trouble, i'll get to him as soon as I save this stranger over here..."

[Sisterofshane]

Originally Posted by jaybreezy

I dont know if its as black and white as that.

Kenny decided to do what he did in the freezer to keep the group safe, not doing that would've been the risk imo. So here, Kenny was playing it safe.

Taking the food from the car was playimg it safe because without it the group or someone within the group could starve so again it could be seen as Kenny playing it safe.

Or we could look at it this way - Kenny takes the risk of action, while Lilly takes the risk of NOT acting. If you consider that each side has cons, then it's easy to say that both take risks, they just take risks that their respective methods are going to pay off.