Meat Locker Dilemma

[Milosuperspesh]

i mean't in real life not twd/game wise...

[phoray]

I sided with Kenny. Afterwards, I felt sick at all that transpired because of that choice. I regretted it. At the same time, I would honestly make the decision again. It was a hard choice, it was the correct choice for survival with the information I had. And there was the potential I murdered someone with a chance for life. That choice will linger. It will haunt me (Lee). And it should haunt him/me. It'll also haunt Kenny and he was 100% behind it. Kenny will always hate himself. He even keeps looking to Katjaa to see if she still loves what he's becoming. (After the Duck/Shawn choice, her look causes him to offer a ride to Macon. Also, in the store after he talks to you about the choice, there is a long glance between he and her. She knows what he's wrestling with and he is relieved to know she hasn't turned her back on him or judged him for his choices.)

The rationalization and consolation he seeks from Lee for his decisions will always just be something that keeps him from putting a bullet in his own brain (second to a living family.) In a world where the apocalypse ended and normalcy returned, I can see Kenny becoming either a drunk or killing himself because his family is now safe and don't directly need him. I honestly do.

Why do I think Kenny regrets despite all his bark that he's making the right decisions?

He sincerely apologizes to Lilly for what he "is about to do" so to speak, before he does the act. Some people would say sorry isn't enough, and it won't be to Lilly... But he apologized before, not after, and his tone of voice was very sincere to me. The look on his face after he does it, he seems to be shocked even at himself from his own actions. HE says/does these things whether you side with him or not the entire game, which means this is the true him. There's an inner battle in him, there, that is raging just as much in him as ourselves/Lee. He's far more complex a character than Lilly, although emotionally, I totally get her thoughts processes about the decision and for leaving me to die afterward on the fence. I wish the next episode would take that into account, with perhaps a deepening of her character as she considers herself and what she now knows to be capable of; cold blooded vengeance. Larry, apparently, never rethinks his humanity after leaving me to die, totally rationalizing/absorbing it and completely unapologetic. In epi 3, She should be shocked at her own feelings about leaving him to die if she were a complex enough character. Unfortunately, following this forum has told me about the show/comic book series and I worry she'll be going poof soon.

[Sisterofshane]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

That's not true. Most people did try to save Larry and thought he could still be saved. Accept it, it's most you that believed that :P

I believe the sentiment is that most people believe that you should try to save Larry, even if he was past the point of no return. That is much different from believing that he was alive ,or that he definitely would be after you jumped in to help.

As far as the "virus" debate goes, I think it stems from the fact that most people believed that the "bite" is what caused you to turn - and what is mostly likely to be transferred from saliva to blood? A virus. People then just naturally assume that it must still be a virus, but one that lies dormant in us, as opposed to only being a blood-borne pathogen.

The truth is that we don't know what causes us to become Walkers, and Ben's shocking revelation is yet further proof of the fact that no one really knows. Better then to err on the side of caution, then to find yourself mentally unprepared for a situation when it goes from bad to worse (ie, the person you THOUGHT was dead now comes back).

[Sisterofshane]

Originally Posted by phoray

I sided with Kenny. Afterwards, I felt sick at all that transpired because of that choice. I regretted it. At the same time, I would honestly make the decision again. It was a hard choice, it was the correct choice for survival with the information I had. And there was the potential I murdered someone with a chance for life. That choice will linger. It will haunt me (Lee). And it should haunt him/me. It'll also haunt Kenny and he was 100% behind it. Kenny will always hate himself. He even keeps looking to Katjaa to see if she still loves what he's becoming. (After the Duck/Shawn choice, her look causes him to offer a ride to Macon. Also, in the store after he talks to you about the choice, there is a long glance between he and her. She knows what he's wrestling with and he is relieved to know she hasn't turned her back on him or judged him for his choices.)

The rationalization and consolation he seeks from Lee for his decisions will always just be something that keeps him from putting a bullet in his own brain (second to a living family.) In a world where the apocalypse ended and normalcy returned, I can see Kenny becoming either a drunk or killing himself because his family is now safe and don't directly need him. I honestly do.

Why do I think Kenny regrets despite all his bark that he's making the right decisions?

He sincerely apologizes to Lilly for what he "is about to do" so to speak, before he does the act. Some people would say sorry isn't enough, and it won't be to Lilly... But he apologized before, not after, and his tone of voice was very sincere to me. The look on his face after he does it, he seems to be shocked even at himself from his own actions. HE says/does these things whether you side with him or not the entire game, which means this is the true him. There's an inner battle in him, there, that is raging just as much in him as ourselves/Lee. He's far more complex a character than Lilly, although emotionally, I totally get her thoughts processes about the decision and for leaving me to die afterward on the fence. I wish the next episode would take that into account, with perhaps a deepening of her character as she considers herself and what she now knows to be capable of; cold blooded vengeance. Larry, apparently, never rethinks his humanity after leaving me to die, totally rationalizing/absorbing it and completely unapologetic. In epi 3, She should be shocked at her own feelings about leaving him to die if she were a complex enough character. Unfortunately, following this forum has told me about the show/comic book series and I worry she'll be going poof soon.

I got that impression from him, as well. (I also sided with him in the meat locker). I do believe that it was the morally wrong choice to make - but I try to remember that we are living in the zombie apocalypse, and the knowledge that ALL of the dead come back (even if it's not a confirmed fact) is pretty much a "game changer". If this piece of evidence IS true, we are going to have to reevaluate methods and standards for life-saving procedures and for the handling of the recently deceased. (An example might be putting a limit on CPR attempts, instead of performing it until a doctor gives confirmation of death. Another example will be "abandoning" funeral practices that aim to keep the body intact).

We feel guilt because as of now, these are not accepted cultural practices. Sometimes survival demands, though, that culture change and adapt.

[Bearcules]

Originally Posted by Sisterofshane

As far as the "virus" debate goes, I think it stems from the fact that most people believed that the "bite" is what caused you to turn - and what is mostly likely to be transferred from saliva to blood?

Pathogenic bacteria can be transmitted through saliva.

[phoray]

Originally Posted by Sisterofshane

If this piece of evidence IS true, we are going to have to reevaluate methods and standards for life-saving procedures and for the handling of the recently deceased. (An example might be putting a limit on CPR attempts, instead of performing it until a doctor gives confirmation of death. Another example will be "abandoning" funeral practices that aim to keep the body intact).

I was thinking the human race could live on easily enough, it shouldn't effect procreation. Our lifespans would decrease quite a lot, because the minute someone looked iffy, their head has got to get cut off.

Also.... No one was thinking of cross contamination, but Lee whacked a zombies head off with that axe. IT's got zombie gook all over it, then Lee hacked a man's leg off. That right there was as bad as a zombie biting him.

Doesn't explain Travis, though.

[Master of Aeons]

There have been two examples of pregnancy in the comics after the end. And in every medium, cross-contamination has been ignored.

[Sisterofshane]

Originally Posted by phoray

I was thinking the human race could live on easily enough, it shouldn't effect procreation. Our lifespans would decrease quite a lot, because the minute someone looked iffy, their head has got to get cut off.

Also.... No one was thinking of cross contamination, but Lee whacked a zombies head off with that axe. IT's got zombie gook all over it, then Lee hacked a man's leg off. That right there was as bad as a zombie biting him.

Doesn't explain Travis, though.

I wasn't talking about pregnancy or whether it was safe, but that we're going to have to take a staunch position in order to survive as a species (pregnancy doesn't matter if the adult birthing population dies out). If that means that CPR is only attempted for a set amount of time in order to minimize the risk to the rescuer, than so be it. If it means that time honored burial practices need to be done away with, so be it. It's probably a few of these cultural practices that have made the situation as bad as it was (imagining everyone is running around trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and end up getting themselves killed, which in turn only makes MORE walkers).

That doesn't mean that we should give up EVERYTHING in the name of survival. That would be the St. John's and the Bandits. They leave NO hope for the future, they just live day to day, doing whatever they need to make sure that they live for another hour.

[Master of Aeons]

This might be beside what you guys are talking about, but have you read the "Fear The Hunters" arc of the comic?

[tenebra]

in the Series they say that a Transformation takes from 2 minutes up to a couple of hours (if i recal correctly its over 20h in the longest known case)

so they could have gambled on that... and kill him when he transformed.

[Death689God]

An excerpt from my post on "Making tough decisions - Moral Codes?" thread.

DO NOT KILL YOUR OWN! This is something my Lee's only added after the events on the Dairy Farm... He tried to save Larry, a man he thinks the group would be better off without, because of it. And I was quick enough to see Larry start to come back to us, just before Kenny dropped the salt lick, firmly planting this idea in his mind.

[CapnJay]

i'd help Larry even if he was a complete asshole to me simply because he's an extra pair of hands that our group can use and he's Lily's safety blanket

[thestalkinghead]

on my first try i went straight for the salt block and smashed his head in, i had no reason to doubt school boy and i believe we are all infected, plus i figured larry wanted to kill me as soon as possible so i had to kill him first, so an actual legitimate excuse of him being dead and he will return to be the walking dead with me, clementine, kenny and lilly locked in a room was what i was looking for, and him being a 400lb zombie that earlier knocked me and kenny out, and that was when he was and old man with a heart problem let alone a relentless undead monster, i couldnt risk the chance that you turned the second you die so resuscitation would not be an option especially mouth to mouth with a zombie.
on my second playthrough i thought i might get a cool zombie fight or save him so i tryed to help and was actually shocked when kenny killed him.

P.S also i dont think larry would want to kill lilly so if he was telepathic (in my opinion) would have told me he wanted to die rather than kill lilly

[TheWaltzingBread]

There are a lot of ifs and buts, its true.

But the bottm line is Larry is a human till proven zombie, we could have held him down till he turned. Kenny murdered Larry as far as im concerned.

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by TheWaltzingBread

There are a lot of ifs and buts, its true.

But the bottm line is Larry is a human till proven zombie, we could have held him down till he turned. Kenny murdered Larry as far as im concerned.

where is this court of zombie, where it is human until proven zombie

its zombie until proven human, if you are bit or dead you need your brain removing instantly

[adam86shadow]

Kenny didn't even give us chance to save Larry. Even if he became a zombie it would be easy to kill him before he gets up. Fact is Larry could still be alive if Kenny/Lee waited a bit longer

[jaybreezy]

Originally Posted by adam86shadow

Kenny didn't even give us chance to save Larry. Even if he became a zombie it would be easy to kill him before he gets up. Fact is Larry could still be alive if Kenny/Lee waited a bit longer

In your version. Not in mine. In mine, Larry becoming a walker would have been bad news for the group (which includes Clementine) so we took him out before it could happen. The End... Of Larry anyway

[Master of Aeons]

Originally Posted by adam86shadow

Kenny didn't even give us chance to save Larry. Even if he became a zombie it would be easy to kill him before he gets up. Fact is Larry could still be alive if Kenny/Lee waited a bit longer

Larry as a zombie would have been impossible to control and would have probably bitten someone before being awkwardly put down with the lack of weapons. They make a point to establish that even a tiny zombie is hard to control by three people - go back to the truck encounter, raise the DC by 10 and unequip everyone. That's what would have happened.

[Walker#1]

I think both choices are valid options in that kind of situation.

But I choose also to help Lily. Why?

#1 Because as some here already stated, Larry wasn't dead/zombified yet, so there could have been a chance to still safe him.. and as tiny as this chance may be, I at least would always help and try safe him.

#2 Just as Rick Grimes in the TV-Series said to Daryl: "We don't kill the Living." And Larry, not yet zombified, does count for me still as a human I could save through CPR. As simple as that.

And I give a rats ass about all these ifs and whats in regards of Larry beeing revived as a walker and the problems you (Lee), Kenny, Clementine and Lily would have to face. Because, the game/story isn't programmed to go that way. If it actually were like that, you try helping Larry, Kenny doesn't throw the saltblock on his face, Larry revives as a walker and bites someone else in the aftermath... TOTALLY DIFFERENT STORY. I would probably instantly play that chapter again and choose otherwise.

But, as amusing as this discussion is, what bothered me the most was the fact that Clementine had to see all of this. With her reaction afterwards I was so furious I seriously wanted to slap Kenny around a bit (so kudos to the Devs for making the game so emotional).

[jaybreezy]

Originally Posted by Walker#1

And I give a rats ass about all these ifs and whats in regards of Larry beeing revived as a walker and the problems you (Lee), Kenny, Clementine and Lily would have to face. Because, the game/story isn't programmed to go that way. If it actually were like that, you try helping Larry, Kenny doesn't throw the saltblock on his face, Larry revives as a walker and bites someone else in the aftermath... TOTALLY DIFFERENT STORY. I would probably instantly play that chapter again and choose otherwise.

But, as amusing as this discussion is, what bothered me the most was the fact that Clementine had to see all of this. With her reaction afterwards I was so furious I seriously wanted to slap Kenny around a bit (so kudos to the Devs for making the game so emotional).

So.. You're reasoning for choosing to help Larry is because the game isn't programmed that way lol, and if it was you would start over?? Seriously? I'm playing the game through on my initial reactions and not making decisions with thoughts of "starting over". So, Larry has a chance of turning into a walker then he's done. In other words, in my game the "what if's" that you mentioned are very important.