Limited Choices discussion (merged threads)

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by RMJ1984

Yeah the only thing i hate more than "no choices" in a game, is the "illusion of choice", where if you go back and try something else, nothing really changes, some people still hate you even if you saved him or whatever.

The whole choice thing seems good and solid if you only play Walking dead one time!. when you try it again you see all the cracks and the illusions.


What choices should mean in this game, is that almost everyone would end up with a different combinations of survivors at the end of the series. That would be freaking awesome.

i agree the illusion of choice is worse than no choice, things had better add up to at least a different ending (peoples opinions of you don't count) else it would leave me feeling very disappointed (unlike a normal point and click adventure where you know there is no choices just puzzles) and i would probably recommend people don't buy it just watch it on youtube it wont be any different from playing it ultimately.

but if the ending/game was truly my own story (not totally unique i know thousand of people would have made the same choices as me) i would tell everyone to buy it

[Master of Aeons]

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

but if the ending/game was truly my own story (not totally unique i know thousand of people would have made the same choices as me) i would tell everyone to buy it

I'm pretty sure things will deviate sharply in the last episode. After they don't have to bring everything back to have a neat continuation, I think they're going to go nuts.

[Death689God]

I think all of the "pointless" choices that "don't change anything" won't really matter till Episode 5. Where, your actions, who you've sided with, etc, determine who lives and who dies.

[Dildor]

Originally Posted by Master of Aeons

I'm pretty sure things will deviate sharply in the last episode. After they don't have to bring everything back to have a neat continuation, I think they're going to go nuts.

I'd love for it to just got batshit crazy at the end and have a unique ending depending on what we did. I don't know how that would effect the second season that they have announced, though. Maybe season 1 is Lee and Clem's story, and season 2 will bring all new characters to the table.

[Master of Aeons]

Originally Posted by Dildor

I'd love for it to just got batshit crazy at the end and have a unique ending depending on what we did. I don't know how that would effect the second season that they have announced, though. Maybe season 1 is Lee and Clem's story, and season 2 will bring all new characters to the table.

I guessed that 2 would have new characters and, based on your saves, would have a Lee cameo at appropriate times.

[Galdis]

Originally Posted by WabbitTwaks

Stuff.

So they lack any sort of ambition? No one ever said making video games was supposed to be easy and you're not supposed to compromise for "what's realistic", you're supposed to push the boundaries.

Don't get me wrong: I like the story anyway and it succeeded in evoking responses from me. My heart pounded, I was sweating, and I did feel the pressure. Telltale did a very good job, but unless the next 3 episodes really deliver we'll just be playing an interactive story with very mild variations.

I understand that it's a lot to do and it adds constraints. It means more loose ends to tie up, more coding, more testing, and more money. However, I would hope that Telltale is more concerned with blowing away their fanbase.

What do I mean by "more variation"?

So far, the big choices have been:

I don't know whether lying to Hershel has any significance because I was always honest. I could see it serving a purpose to change how certain dialogue options and attitudes of your Lee (being honest or deception) but, practically speaking, it serves no purpose since we probably see Hershel again in this series.

The choice between Shawn and Duck effectively boils down to whether you want brownie points with Kenny. Either way, Kenny runs off like a coward with Duck, Shawn is killed, and Hershel gives you the boot. This is probably more significant later in relation to Kenny's character, which seems to hate you if you don't support him 100% of the time.

Choosing who to side with (or not) in the pharmacy also seems to be about brownie points. It does not change the group dynamic because Kenny and Lilly go through the same arguments Episode 2 regardless of who you side with. Clementine is always on your side, as is Carley. Choosing to side with Larry and Lily would overrule Kenny's family and vice versa, thus changing the balance of power and support. We see none of this.

Choosing to give the gun or not should have a very heavy impact, particularly on how people view you (consider that Glenn and Carley saw you and most likely said something about it). This seems like a decision for the game and other characters to learn how you treat others but it has not really come to fruition.

I think choosing Doug or Carley will become much more significant down the road and it was pretty different in Episode 2. I give this the benefit of the doubt. Carley is a bit more of the strong, silent type. She is good with a gun. Meanwhile, Doug is more comedic and very resourceful. In Episode 2 you find the differences in their personalities and how they handle stress as well as different skills and abilities. Doug being a tech guy makes him pretty valuable, which is clear when he designs an alarm system. Meanwhile, Carley is a bit more of a grunt who ends up taking most of the watch shifts. Doug saves you with a laser pointer while Carley does it the old fashioned way. However, giving both characters nearly the same lines is inexcusably lazy. They're different people, treat them like it!

Chopping off David's leg is another one of those decisions that probably alters how the game and NPCs view your Lee. There are no real consequences to this in Episode 2 - either way, Ben is the only one who survives and you save Katjaa.

Choosing to help save or kill Larry is another one of those decisions I think are too early to fully appreciate. You see the immediate effects in Episode 2 and I'm damn sure you'll see them as long as Lily and Kenny are around. Personally, I highly doubt the writers will overlook this. I actually feel very confident that your treatment of the St. John brothers will not be forgotten since their fate carries heavy implications. Without them, the bandits become more aggressive and your group views you as more violent. With them, you gain mortal enemies with nothing left to lose but your humanity is not forgotten.

I'd certainly hope that little things have an impact on your story: how you treat other characters (particularly Clementine) and how hopeful or practical you are should change how others view you.

I give a great benefit of the doubt because it's only Episode 2, but we return to my original point: they have no excuse for linearity after this point. I've already got my seat belt buckled and I'm in for he ride, which I have thoroughly enjoyed so far. If Telltale wants to simply tell a tale, that's what they're doing so far. If they want to live up to their own hype and do something that sets them apart from all the other languorous developers, they'll set the bar for story telling in video games.

[Death689God]

Originally Posted by Galdis

So they lack any sort of ambition? No one ever said making video games was supposed to be easy and you're not supposed to compromise for "what's realistic", you're supposed to push the boundaries.

Don't get me wrong: I like the story anyway and it succeeded in evoking responses from me. My heart pounded, I was sweating, and I did feel the pressure. Telltale did a very good job, but unless the next 3 episodes really deliver we'll just be playing an interactive story with very mild variations.

I understand that it's a lot to do and it adds constraints. It means more loose ends to tie up, more coding, more testing, and more money. However, I would hope that Telltale is more concerned with blowing away their fanbase.

What do I mean by "more variation"?

So far, the big choices have been:

I don't know whether lying to Hershel has any significance because I was always honest. I could see it serving a purpose to change how certain dialogue options and attitudes of your Lee (being honest or deception) but, practically speaking, it serves no purpose since we probably see Hershel again in this series.

The choice between Shawn and Duck effectively boils down to whether you want brownie points with Kenny. Either way, Kenny runs off like a coward with Duck, Shawn is killed, and Hershel gives you the boot. This is probably more significant later in relation to Kenny's character, which seems to hate you if you don't support him 100% of the time.

Choosing who to side with (or not) in the pharmacy also seems to be about brownie points. It does not change the group dynamic because Kenny and Lilly go through the same arguments Episode 2 regardless of who you side with. Clementine is always on your side, as is Carley. Choosing to side with Larry and Lily would overrule Kenny's family and vice versa, thus changing the balance of power and support. We see none of this.

Choosing to give the gun or not should have a very heavy impact, particularly on how people view you (consider that Glenn and Carley saw you and most likely said something about it). This seems like a decision for the game and other characters to learn how you treat others but it has not really come to fruition.

I think choosing Doug or Carley will become much more significant down the road and it was pretty different in Episode 2. I give this the benefit of the doubt. Carley is a bit more of the strong, silent type. She is good with a gun. Meanwhile, Doug is more comedic and very resourceful. In Episode 2 you find the differences in their personalities and how they handle stress as well as different skills and abilities. Doug being a tech guy makes him pretty valuable, which is clear when he designs an alarm system. Meanwhile, Carley is a bit more of a grunt who ends up taking most of the watch shifts. Doug saves you with a laser pointer while Carley does it the old fashioned way. However, giving both characters nearly the same lines is inexcusably lazy. They're different people, treat them like it!

Chopping off David's leg is another one of those decisions that probably alters how the game and NPCs view your Lee. There are no real consequences to this in Episode 2 - either way, Ben is the only one who survives and you save Katjaa.

Choosing to help save or kill Larry is another one of those decisions I think are too early to fully appreciate. You see the immediate effects in Episode 2 and I'm damn sure you'll see them as long as Lily and Kenny are around. Personally, I highly doubt the writers will overlook this. I actually feel very confident that your treatment of the St. John brothers will not be forgotten since their fate carries heavy implications. Without them, the bandits become more aggressive and your group views you as more violent. With them, you gain mortal enemies with nothing left to lose but your humanity is not forgotten.

I'd certainly hope that little things have an impact on your story: how you treat other characters (particularly Clementine) and how hopeful or practical you are should change how others view you.

I give a great benefit of the doubt because it's only Episode 2, but we return to my original point: they have no excuse for linearity after this point. I've already got my seat belt buckled and I'm in for he ride, which I have thoroughly enjoyed so far. If Telltale wants to simply tell a tale, that's what they're doing so far. If they want to live up to their own hype and do something that sets them apart from all the other languorous developers, they'll set the bar for story telling in video games.

Outside observation: if the person your responding to could only type a single worded sentence and you type all of that, I'd say you win by default.

[fanganga]

It looks to me like they're primarily trying to craft a story and using the choices and consequences to create more emotional impact. Naturally, the cost of creating art assets and voice acting limits the extent to which the story can branch, but the art and acting's important for the effect they're trying to create too.

If you're interested in branching narratives, check out what's happening in the interactive fiction world - with only text to create, people can be a lot more free with what they do. http://www.choiceofgames.com/category/our-games/ is one place worth starting. It's a bit of a mixed bag - the early games seem to be largely a case of winning points with ally A, B or C, then picking the right one to side with in the final showdown, with a few cosmetic choices of the sort the people in this thread have been complaining about. The later ones promise to be more ambitious, but I've not explored them fully.

[Zhijn]

I think they handle choice and the effect in dialog way better then some other games.

Tho with episode 2 done im starting to see a pattern and thats the "tough/major" choices seem too sort of overwrite the previous big choice as if it dosnt really matter anymore, and the npc/characters just forget past choices and will only remember current choice which imo is a pretty big flaw for such a character story driven game.

It was especially obvious with the meat locker choice in ep2, now that one made no sens to me if you picked Larry/Lilly. Kenny which Lee in my game had supported from the get-go just went completely mental as everything else that had happen between the two during episode 1 and 2 never happen. Kinda awkward, and there was no option to discuss it except more or less calling him coward, wow lol.

It just dosnt seem to handle multi choices very well, like you either stick with one thing or nothing at all. Tho Clem-Clem is remembering pretty well, thats a plus!.

[izzywozzy]

IMO, the game developers did a really great job with the choices. It's pretty wasteful to design a whole new branch of the story if only 50% did it, yet they designed, voiced, wrote, etc. for whatever choice you make. Plus, if you are a fan of other Telltale Games, then you know this is their first time where there are several story arcs, depending on your decisions.

[RaoDGuitar]

i just finished the first and second episode today and what i feel now is like my choices mostly let the people of the group think bad about me, so allways let me feel i have done something wrong (only ingame....)

but besides that there isnt a deeper influence after what i have read and after just the first two episodes.
as allways i think about real heavy consequences in such games... if you would do that consistently you would end up with a huge amount of possible storylines (if you can calculate...) or with just some which split up early or at fixed points. both variants doesnt seem practical to me so the social changes might be enough (how the people like you or who is left behind and who not)

what i hated at the end was the larry decision... he will die no matter what and i missed the opportunity to tell kenny to stand ready to drop that saltblock if he turns while lee tries to revive... so i tried that and all my feedback is that larry moans all the time (and probably later on... -.-') what is pretty annoying if you know larry would die anyway.

also i would have liked to say "let us wait a day at the car and when nobody comes we will get it"... just moaning myself

[bghjkl]

I am significantly disappointed in the artificial choices the game offers.

The way it's being marketed, It really sounds like your choices should impact the story but it doesn't at all. Everyone plays the exact same story, the only difference is the way the characters act.

Look at some of this marketing and tell me if I'm wrong.





Remember this screen?


Don't get me wrong, I like the game. It's a great adventure game, and this is what telltale excels at. It's just linear and the marketing is misleading. I had much higher hopes, and to be honest I think TTG did too. There are a few things I noticed that seem to imply a more meaningful decision. For example, what was the purpose of having the dialogue options available to tell the St.Johns "Nobody fucks with our group" or "We have enough people to defend ourselves" if not some device to discourage them from feeding Mark to you?

I expected the game to be like other "interactive dramas" For example, in "Heavy Rain" there is a scene where you run away from the police, and you can get shot, arrested, brought back to the station, and interrogated. You can also escape and skip the police station arc of the story. I was expecting decisions in TWD to be more along the lines of

-Go into Clem's house / Go out the gate and keep looking for help
-Help Larry get meds / Let the fucker die
-Go to the Greene farm / Continue on your own
-Fail to save Clem from walkers --> Instant autosave, Clem permanently dead
-Go upstairs in St.John house to find Mark / Wash hands and eat dinner
-Approach Brenda to rescue Katjaa / Walk away and let her fend for herself

etc, you know, drastic, lasting decisions. They said they want you to think first and think "what have I done" afterward; No "right" decisions etc... So far that hasn't been the case at all.

I know there are 3 episodes left in the season, so I'll keep a hopeful mind, but I am very very confidant there will only be one narrative, and that disappoints me. Someone mentioned the possibility of a Woodbury with Lilly / Boat with Kenny decision in ep.3 and while I am in love with that idea or any other idea that would create a split narrative, We probably won't see it.

And the excuse that "To write multiple narratives would be like writing multiple games, telltale can't do all that for 5 bucks a game, one month per episode isnt enough to do that" etc -- At the release of episode 1, I read TTG would be working simultaneously on ALL the episodes throughout the release period, and that they were all in late phases, so it's not like they're pushing out entire games within a 1-month (lol more like 2-month) agenda.

I'll still play TellTale Games because they are great adventures, but TTG needs to be really careful with their marketing (or hire new marketing people for fucks sake) because so far they have set two really high bars for themselves and failed to meet either of them. (tailored story and monthly releases)

/2cents

[Galdis]

Originally Posted by bghjkl

I am significantly disappointed in the artificial choices the game offers.

The way it's being marketed, It really sounds like your choices should impact the story but it doesn't at all. Everyone plays the exact same story, the only difference is the way the characters act.

Look at some of this marketing and tell me if I'm wrong.





Remember this screen?


Don't get me wrong, I like the game. It's a great adventure game, and this is what telltale excels at. It's just linear and the marketing is misleading. I had much higher hopes, and to be honest I think TTG did too. There are a few things I noticed that seem to imply a more meaningful decision. For example, what was the purpose of having the dialogue options available to tell the St.Johns "Nobody fucks with our group" or "We have enough people to defend ourselves" if not some device to discourage them from feeding Mark to you?

I expected the game to be like other "interactive dramas" For example, in "Heavy Rain" there is a scene where you run away from the police, and you can get shot, arrested, brought back to the station, and interrogated. You can also escape and skip the police station arc of the story. I was expecting decisions in TWD to be more along the lines of

-Go into Clem's house / Go out the gate and keep looking for help
-Help Larry get meds / Let the fucker die
-Go to the Greene farm / Continue on your own
-Fail to save Clem from walkers --> Instant autosave, Clem permanently dead
-Go upstairs in St.John house to find Mark / Wash hands and eat dinner
-Approach Brenda to rescue Katjaa / Walk away and let her fend for herself

etc, you know, drastic, lasting decisions. They said they want you to think first and think "what have I done" afterward; No "right" decisions etc... So far that hasn't been the case at all.

I know there are 3 episodes left in the season, so I'll keep a hopeful mind, but I am very very confidant there will only be one narrative, and that disappoints me. Someone mentioned the possibility of a Woodbury with Lilly / Boat with Kenny decision in ep.3 and while I am in love with that idea or any other idea that would create a split narrative, We probably won't see it.

And the excuse that "To write multiple narratives would be like writing multiple games, telltale can't do all that for 5 bucks a game, one month per episode isnt enough to do that" etc -- At the release of episode 1, I read TTG would be working simultaneously on ALL the episodes throughout the release period, and that they were all in late phases, so it's not like they're pushing out entire games within a 1-month (lol more like 2-month) agenda.

I'll still play TellTale Games because they are great adventures, but TTG needs to be really careful with their marketing (or hire new marketing people for fucks sake) because so far they have set two really high bars for themselves and failed to meet either of them. (tailored story and monthly releases)

/2cents

I am glad you agree with me.

TTG is a great company but, as it stands now, TWD hasn't really delivered in the sense of branching storylines. The only real differences are whether you saved Carley or Doug, or if you are siding with Lily or Kenny (or remaining neutral altogether). I hope that the first two episodes are setting up for things to come (going with Kenny, going with Lilly, having to go on your own because neither trust you, dealing with the differences between Doug and Carley) but past promises of branching storylines have often gone unfulfilled.

I'm less annoyed by sporadic updates. I'd accept something 3 months late if it delivered.

[bghjkl]

Originally Posted by Galdis

I am glad you agree with me.

TTG is a great company but, as it stands now, TWD hasn't really delivered in the sense of branching storylines. The only real differences are whether you saved Carley or Doug, or if you are siding with Lily or Kenny (or remaining neutral altogether). I hope that the first two episodes are setting up for things to come (going with Kenny, going with Lilly, having to go on your own because neither trust you, dealing with the differences between Doug and Carley) but past promises of branching storylines have often gone unfulfilled.

I'm less annoyed by sporadic updates. I'd accept something 3 months late if it delivered.

Even the doug/carley choice doesn't really matter. They serve the exact same role in episode 2. (mouth to feed or not feed / save you at the end). Dougs alarm is cool but it doesnt mean, do, or affect anything at all

[Milosuperspesh]

how does anyone not see by picking a side lilly or kenny you are CHANGING the game ??

you also have to choose to save clem and treat her right

you choose carly or doug that also changing the game ??

really people ?

so IF ttg had made these choices matter more and given us different outcomes what would happen ? well for one ep2 would still be 'coming soon'

also you people seem to be forgetting one thing and that is we are on ep2 waiting for ep3 two episodes in ? really ? your expecting too much from 2 episodes..

ep3 will most likely have some big change being the mid point of the game...

so lilly leaves can lee go with her ? does kenny leave lee behind who knows..we will see

bottom line imo is ttg have a limit on what they can do in the time they have so they have to rail road us somehow other wise the game would take longer...

[bghjkl]

Originally Posted by Milosuperspesh

how does anyone not see by picking a side lilly or kenny you are CHANGING the game ??

The only thing it's changed so far is dialogue and who shoots (or chooses not to shoot) the st. john at the end. Nothing about the story

Originally Posted by Milosuperspesh

you also have to choose to save clem and treat her right

So far it hasn't mattered how you treat Clem. The game progresses exactly the same whether you cater to her every need or are a total dick. Minor dialouge changes.

Originally Posted by Milosuperspesh

you choose carly or doug that also changing the game ??

"the doug/carley choice doesn't really matter. They serve the exact same role in episode 2. (mouth to feed or not feed / save you at the end). Dougs alarm is cool but it doesnt mean, do, or affect anything at all"

Originally Posted by Milosuperspesh

really people ?

so IF ttg had made these choices matter more and given us different outcomes what would happen ? well for one ep2 would still be 'coming soon'

I'll reiterate, They don't make entire episodes in a 1-month agenda.

Originally Posted by Milosuperspesh

also you people seem to be forgetting one thing and that is we are on ep2 waiting for ep3 two episodes in ? really ? your expecting too much from 2 episodes..

ep3 will most likely have some big change being the mid point of the game...

so lilly leaves can lee go with her ? does kenny leave lee behind who knows..we will see

Indeed we will.

[Milosuperspesh]

Originally Posted by bghjkl

I'll reiterate, They don't make entire episodes in a 1-month agenda.

and ? i said it would take longer ? hence more delays ?

[EXIE]

"Every decision and action can result in the entire story of the game changing around you." Okay so clearly TTG overshot the mark with this statement, but who cares? The game is still incredibly good, and it's not the first time a company has oversold their product in advertising.

So people want their character's choices to have significant consequences, for there to be multiple paths. I'm guessing you want the plot to branch depending on what Lee chooses to have for breakfast as well... I'm getting a sense of gamer entitlement here. Think about the amount of time it would take to have multiple alternate plots of equal quality that last the duration of the 5 chapters, that only a percentage of players would experience, as opposed to just one. And as for these proposals:

-Go into Clem's house / Go out the gate and keep looking for help
- How the hell are you supposed to play the game if Clementine isn't in it? Isn't she kinda important?
-Help Larry get meds / Let the fucker die
-Hmm well if you didn't get the pills then you would never have set the alarm off, then
the walkers would never come, and Doug/Carley wouldn't die...so the game would just
be dull...
-Go to the Greene farm / Continue on your own
-Then maybe you'd never meet Kenny or end up in Macon and meet the group, then
you'd have a completely different game
-Fail to save Clem from walkers --> Instant autosave, Clem permanently dead
Then the player would feel like shit for the rest of the series...not to mention the loss
of a central character and interrelationship
-Go upstairs in St.John house to find Mark / Wash hands and eat dinner
Why wouldn't you go snooping? Don't you have any curiosity as to why they're not letting you see Mark?
-Approach Brenda to rescue Katjaa / Walk away and let her fend for herself
Fair enough lol, that's pretty reasonable, if a little dickish.

I also believe there should be an option not to unlock the door in the barn, because realistically as guests they're kinda crossing the line, but for the most part limited choices is no big deal for what you're getting.

[bghjkl]

Originally Posted by EXIE

-Go into Clem's house / Go out the gate and keep looking for help
- How the hell are you supposed to play the game if Clementine isn't in it? Isn't she kinda important?

Is she? I would play the game differently without her to look after. Bam! Rash decision!

Originally Posted by EXIE

-Help Larry get meds / Let the fucker die
-Hmm well if you didn't get the pills then you would never have set the alarm off, then
the walkers would never come, and Doug/Carley wouldn't die...so the game would just
be dull...

It wouldn't "be dull", It'd be a separate narrative. More shit can happen at the pharmacy. It could get overrun a different way, Bandits could come trying to loot the Oxycodone, anything.

Originally Posted by EXIE

-Go to the Greene farm / Continue on your own
-Then maybe you'd never meet Kenny or end up in Macon and meet the group, then
you'd have a completely different game

Exactly!

Originally Posted by EXIE

-Fail to save Clem from walkers --> Instant autosave, Clem permanently dead
Then the player would feel like shit for the rest of the series...

This is what they were going for!

Originally Posted by EXIE

-Go upstairs in St.John house to find Mark / Wash hands and eat dinner
Why wouldn't you go snooping? Don't you have any curiosity as to why they're not letting you see Mark?

Maybe I think it's more important to be a gracious guest like everyone else, It could save you from being attacked

Originally Posted by EXIE

-Approach Brenda to rescue Katjaa / Walk away and let her fend for herself
Fair enough lol, that's pretty reasonable, if a little dickish.

Please, She has like 5 opportunities to grab Brenda's gun while she points it at Lee. She deserved to die in that scene

Originally Posted by EXIE

I also believe there should be an option not to unlock the door in the barn, because realistically as guests they're kinda crossing the line,
but for the most part limited choices is no big deal for what you're getting.

That's the point I was making about the dinner scene, but you're right. I'm satisfied with what I got. Just a lot of shortcomings.

[Rommel49]

Some options and going completely off the rails isn't really feasible from either a technical standpoint or a logical one. For example, simply remaining at the pharmacy; you'd be screwed. The group had one axe and one handgun to defend themselves with. Likewise for trying to continue on your own/bypassing Hershel's, due to Lee having a leg wound with a decent potential for infection. Dying doesn't exactly advance the narrative.

That said, the decision points we do get should have had a bigger impact.

The one that comes to mind most for me; whether to save Shawn/Duck. I've said it before, I actually would've preferred it if they both ended up dead if you opted to save Shawn, since then the decision does have something resembling an actual consequence that impacts future events. The drug store drama? Gone, or atleast drastically different.

Likewise for the drug store drama itself, if you agree to chuck out Duck, it should actually go forward on that point.

Incidentally, Duck avoids death way too often for me to think it's just a coincidence. I'm of the opinion that the whole reason he doesn't actually die is because he's all the nightmarish horror and entropy of the apocalypse itself made manifest. It would explain why every decision to let the kid die gets nullified...

Likewise for the Larry decision in the meat locker, hell, either he turns or you actually save him, but the time spent on saving the old guy results in Kenny's wife or kid ending up hurt/dead because you weren't around to help them.

Little things like that would also help with the apparent multiple personality disorder that a character like Kenny suffers from, where some of these decisions would logically be genuine points of no return in how he views you or would go out of his way for you. Seriously, trying to save an elderly man? Unforgiveable! Agreeing to throw his kid out, thereby condemning him to be eaten alive by the living-impaired? Oh, well, you're an ass, but he'll still come back for you.