Season 3 may have been the last

[Tora Newton Y.]

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

:/
EASIER puzzles maybe, but still puzzles. They were just as much puzzles as the ones in other Telltale games I've played.
Look, I wasn't raised with Sierra or LucasArts's moon logic bullcrap. To me, "get cat hair to make a fake mustache to impersonate a guy who doesn't even have a mustache" isn't a puzzle, it's a brain aneurysm.
I'll stick to Sam & Max and Back to the Future with their "non-puzzles" according to you then, thanks very much.

[Woodsyblue]

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

:/
EASIER puzzles maybe, but still puzzles. They were just as much puzzles as the ones in other Telltale games I've played.
Look, I wasn't raised with Sierra or LucasArts's moon logic bullcrap. To me, "get cat hair to make a fake mustache to impersonate a guy who doesn't even have a mustache" isn't a puzzle, it's a brain aneurysm.
I'll stick to Sam & Max and Back to the Future with their "non-puzzles" according to you then, thanks very much.

I never said Sam & Max doesn't have puzzles. In fact I believe, season's 1 and 2 in particular have some really great puzzles, so don't be accusing me of saying Sam & Max has non-puzzles. The Telltale games with weak, gimmie puzzles are BttF, Jurassic Park, and The Walking Dead.

Now, the "get cat hair to make a fake moustache to impersonate a guy who doesn't even have a moustache" puzzle is renowned as one of the worst and most convoluted puzzles ever conceived. I get that you are trying to make a point but you seem to be looking at this in black and white. Not all old adventure game puzzles are that hard. Difficulty is not always either Back to the Future level easy or one of the hardest puzzles in existence. The truth is that most adventure games puzzles fit somewhere in between this (I would argue all of them do). And at any rate, I don't believe that adventure games have to have illogically hard puzzles to be good. The problem with BttF isn't that it is considered stupidly easy compared to older adventure games, it's that it is considered stupidly easy by Telltale's own standards. (At that point anyway, the bar since then has been lowered considerably.)

Now, I could spend a lot of time explaining why the puzzles in BttF are a broken, player insulting mess, but why would I when Rather Dashing has already done it for me. Now, if you still like the game then all the power to you, but please, don't go around saying that the game has many puzzles and that they are really good. That's just wrong, completely and truly wrong.

[Tora Newton Y.]

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

I never said Sam & Max doesn't have puzzles. In fact I believe, season's 1 and 2 in particular have some really great puzzles, so don't be accusing me of saying Sam & Max has non-puzzles. The Telltale games with weak, gimmie puzzles are BttF, Jurassic Park, and The Walking Dead.

Now, the "get cat hair to make a fake moustache to impersonate a guy who doesn't even have a moustache" puzzle is renowned as one of the worst and most convoluted puzzles ever conceived. I get that you are trying to make a point but you seem to be looking at this in black and white. Not all old adventure game puzzles are that hard. Difficulty is not always either Back to the Future level easy or one of the hardest puzzles in existence. The truth is that most adventure games puzzles fit somewhere in between this (I would argue all of them do). And at any rate, I don't believe that adventure games have to have illogically hard puzzles to be good. The problem with BttF isn't that it is considered stupidly easy compared to older adventure games, it's that it is considered stupidly easy by Telltale's own standards. (At that point anyway, the bar since then has been lowered considerably.)

Now, I could spend a lot of time explaining why the puzzles in BttF are a broken, player insulting mess, but why would I when Rather Dashing has already done it for me. Now, if you still like the game then all the power to you, but please, don't go around saying that the game has many puzzles and that they are really good. That's just wrong, completely and truly wrong.

Sorry if I seemed aggressive, it was late at night and the image macro response made me feel a little insulted when I would've preferred a comment much like this one explaining why you had a different opinion about BttF's puzzles. I know the Gabriel Knight 3 puzzle was a harsh example (probably the harshest example I could possibly give), I was mostly just a little miffed in that comment which is why I mentioned it. I know it's not as black and white as that.

I probably also spoke out of ignorance and shouldn't have said anything about BttF's puzzles as a whole, because I've actually only played the first episode, and was judging by that. But I very much enjoyed the first episode and the puzzles in it, even if they maybe were slightly easier, I never found them to be TOO easy. There were a few I had to really think about.
I can't say really say the same for the other episodes though because I haven't had the chance to play them yet, so unfortunately I'm going to have to take a raincheck on reading Rather Dashing's post until I have the opportunity to play the rest of the game so I don't get spoiled.

I respect your different opinion about the game and its puzzles, and I apologize again for saying a couple of dumb things rather rudely. After all I have opinions I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with me about, mostly about Sam & Max having a few instances of absolutely atrocious puzzles (though not the too easy kind, the convoluted Sierra moon logic kind), like Act 3 of Episode 303 and the entirety of Episode 202. Episode 202 is horrendous in my opinion because its puzzles border on Gabriel Knight levels of "This puzzle makes no damn sense." Paint a gong in Stinky's Diner red by throwing a SNAIL at it? REALLY?

[crfh]

I love the difficulty level of the puzzles in the Sam and Max games. 1 and 2 were better in that aspect that season 3, but still.

BttF has no puzzles. It's just a movie made of cutscenes with some "hey go do this" things in the middle.

I love it. But sorry, that's the way it is.

[Tora Newton Y.]

Originally Posted by crfh

I love the difficulty level of the puzzles in the Sam and Max games. 1 and 2 were better in that aspect that season 3, but still.

BttF has no puzzles. It's just a movie made of cutscenes with some "hey go do this" things in the middle.

I love it. But sorry, that's the way it is.

Wow, this thread is now making me feel like I'm an idiot who must be ridiculously bad at adventure games, because I actually had to think a few times in Back to the Future Episode 1.
Maybe you're all just too good, having been raised on older adventure games?
'Cause, yeah, my introduction to adventure gaming was through The NeverhoOd (which came out in 1996, but I didn't hear of it or play it until 2007) and then Telltale Games, so once again emphasizing I didn't grow up with or build my brain for adventure games around LucasArts and Sierra and the absolutely ridiculously absurd logic and difficulties those games often presented.
I've gone back and played games like Sam & Max Hit the Road and the first two Monkey Island games from LucasArts, but I never would have gotten through them on my own without my friends giving me hints or looking up walkthroughs.

[Molokov]

Originally Posted by crfh

I love the difficulty level of the puzzles in the Sam and Max games. 1 and 2 were better in that aspect that season 3, but still.

BttF has no puzzles. It's just a movie made of cutscenes with some "hey go do this" things in the middle.

I love it. But sorry, that's the way it is.

I wouldn't say it had *no* puzzles. There were a few, but they weren't nearly as complex as those in Sam & Max or Monkey Island, so you didn't get the same sense of satisfaction when you solved them. The most difficult ones that stumped me for a short while were recording Kid Tannen on the dictaphone while you're up the gazebo, and getting into the Soup Kitchen's basement (both in the first episode, I think). There were certainly a /lot/ of "do this to fill in time between cutscenes", which is why I think BTTF wasn't as a good PnC adventure game as Telltale's previous efforts, but it was still enjoyable to play.

Jurassic Park had like two puzzles in the entire season (e.g. rearranging the rollercoaster carts) and the rest was "Press X to not die". (Note: I died, a lot). Definitely not a PnC adventure game, but it was still fun to play.

I do love the Sam & Max level of puzzles - they're complex enough that multiple locations/items are required, or a chain of puzzles, but not so difficult that you can't work them out just by sitting down and thinking about what you can do with what you have. It's immensely satisfying when you work out a puzzle solution, laugh about it's absurdity (and yet it totally makes sense in the Sam & Max world), and then try it, and laugh again because of how the characters go about it and what happens next.

[Woodsyblue]

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

Sorry if I seemed aggressive, it was late at night and the image macro response made me feel a little insulted when I would've preferred a comment much like this one explaining why you had a different opinion about BttF's puzzles. I know the Gabriel Knight 3 puzzle was a harsh example (probably the harshest example I could possibly give), I was mostly just a little miffed in that comment which is why I mentioned it. I know it's not as black and white as that.

I'm sorry, the image was quite rude. I just didn't know quite how else to react to that particular statement. I've seen plenty of people defend BttF on it's own merits but for someone to actually say that the puzzles are very good... at first I thought you were trolling.

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

I probably also spoke out of ignorance and shouldn't have said anything about BttF's puzzles as a whole, because I've actually only played the first episode, and was judging by that. But I very much enjoyed the first episode and the puzzles in it, even if they maybe were slightly easier, I never found them to be TOO easy. There were a few I had to really think about.
I can't say really say the same for the other episodes though because I haven't had the chance to play them yet, so unfortunately I'm going to have to take a raincheck on reading Rather Dashing's post until I have the opportunity to play the rest of the game so I don't get spoiled.

I respect your different opinion about the game and its puzzles, and I apologize again for saying a couple of dumb things rather rudely. After all I have opinions I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with me about, mostly about Sam & Max having a few instances of absolutely atrocious puzzles (though not the too easy kind, the convoluted Sierra moon logic kind), like Act 3 of Episode 303 and the entirety of Episode 202. Episode 202 is horrendous in my opinion because its puzzles border on Gabriel Knight levels of "This puzzle makes no damn sense." Paint a gong in Stinky's Diner red by throwing a SNAIL at it? REALLY?

There is a logic to Sam & Max puzzles but it's a different kind of logic. It's something you have to get used to. You have to train yourself into thinking in a different kind of way and pay attention to things you wouldn't normally pay attention to.

The snail puzzle does actually make sense in the context of the universe. Look at that episode, to get to that point you have to hit many different coloured gongs and they all bring up colour-coordinated portals. When you find the snail Sam makes a point of saying that it a red trail. So we have an established connection with coloured gongs and portals, a red portal that needs to be moved, an unpainted gong in Stinkey's Diner, and a sea snail that leaves a trail not unlike red paint. It's hard, but it's not illogical in the way that Gabriel Knight puzzle is. The clues are there, they're just not very obvious.

Some people only play adventure games for the humour and the story but there are those of us who like the challenge as well. I freely admit that there are some adventure game puzzles out there that are completely convoluted and non-nonsensical, and that can be both off-putting and frustrating, but there is nothing more satisfying than that a-ha moment of figuring out a well designed puzzle. That's what the new Telltale games have been missing in a big way.

One of the big problems with games like BttF is that they don't give the player a great deal of control, only the illusion of control. Sure, you might be able to walk around the streets of Hill Valley but it's mostly just show. Clickable hot spots and things you can interact with are few and far between, and the gameplay is mostly just go where they tell you to go and do what they tell you to do with very little for you to actually figure out. It's just cut scene, followed by segment of limited interaction, followed by cut scene.

It's very easy not to see how shallow it is. I didn't notice it after only playing the first episode either. It has a faster pace than most adventure games and you're usually not in scenes for very long. It can feel like you are just solving the puzzles quickly but if you stop and look hard at the puzzle you'll find there is really nothing to them. Again, this all goes back to limited interactivity.

Originally Posted by Molokov

I do love the Sam & Max level of puzzles - they're complex enough that multiple locations/items are required, or a chain of puzzles, but not so difficult that you can't work them out just by sitting down and thinking about what you can do with what you have. It's immensely satisfying when you work out a puzzle solution, laugh about it's absurdity (and yet it totally makes sense in the Sam & Max world), and then try it, and laugh again because of how the characters go about it and what happens next.

Perfectly put

[Tora Newton Y.]

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

I'm sorry, the image was quite rude. I just didn't know quite how else to react to that particular statement. I've seen plenty of people defend BttF on it's own merits but for someone to actually say that the puzzles are very good... at first I thought you were trolling.

It's fine, I forgive you! Yeah, I wasn't trolling, I must just suck at adventure games because I had to think about a few puzzles in BttF Episode 1. I didn't mean to say they were GREAT puzzles, but they weren't BAD, at least I didn't think so, so that's just what I meant by they were "good." They weren't too easy (to me) or totally nonsensical. Satisfactory, I guess, maybe is a better word?

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

The snail puzzle does actually make sense in the context of the universe. Look at that episode, to get to that point you have to hit many different coloured gongs and they all bring up colour-coordinated portals. When you find the snail Sam makes a point of saying that it a red trail. So we have an established connection with coloured gongs and portals, a red portal that needs to be moved, an unpainted gong in Stinkey's Diner, and a sea snail that leaves a trail not unlike red paint. It's hard, but it's not illogical in the way that Gabriel Knight puzzle is. The clues are there, they're just not very obvious.
Some people only play adventure games for the humour and the story but there are those of us who like the challenge as well. I freely admit that there are some adventure game puzzles out there that are completely convoluted and non-nonsensical, and that can be both off-putting and frustrating, but there is nothing more satisfying than that a-ha moment of figuring out a well designed puzzle. That's what the new Telltale games have been missing in a big way.

The snail and gong puzzle DEFINITELY isn't completely batcrap insane in the way that Gabriel Knight puzzle is, but to me, it felt like borderline to that type of ridiculous logic. It... makes sense, in a WAY, but it's a stretch because though it's hinted at, it's not hinted at very WELL. After you paint the gong red even Sam points out how he didn't think that would actually work! It's absurd to point where I'm pretty sure Telltale themselves realized it by including that line.
Humor and story is what I do admit I enjoy most out of adventure games, but I love a good puzzle too, pretty evident by the fact some of my all time favorite other video games not made by Telltale are also puzzle games or puzzle-based adventure games (examples: The NeverhoOd as I mentioned earlier, Valve's Portal games and ATLUS's Catherine). Sam & Max usually has FANTASTIC puzzles and that's just another bullet point on my enormous list of reasons why I love the series, but every now and then I do feel it's been guilty of having some I could just not wrap my brain around in any conceivable manner. And that's really frustrating to me, because Sam & Max does have such good humor and story, I really get immersed in it when playing... so when I get stuck it takes me right out of the experience. Nothing makes me madder than when this awesome and hilarious story comes to a grinding halt just because I can't solve a puzzle. That's usually why if I can't figure it out after like 15 minutes or so, I look up what I'm supposed to do, and don't force myself to go and try and think about it for hours.

I can't at all agree Telltale's been lacking in well-designed puzzles lately, though. Sam & Max: The Devil's Playhouse was hands down the best season (and also the best game Telltale has ever made, but why specifically is for another post) and I wasn't dissatisfied with Back to the Future Episode 1. If the Puzzle Agent games count, I also love those games and their puzzles. I haven't played Jurassic Park or The Walking Dead, but I know the former was just a bad game in general (hey, everybody has their screw-ups) while I've heard excellent things about the latter so far and hope to play it soon.

[crfh]

To each their own! I *like* going to sleep with a puzzle gnawing on my brain. I finished each episode of BttF in a couple of hours tops.

The red gong thing wasn't hard to deduct for me at all, but painting the amulet red wasn't something easy for me as I didn't figure out it was a hexagon.

[FrankT]

I'm not a very good puzzle solver. Though I did kind of guess how to solve the red gong thingy.

[boxman]

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

... I think you might have some weird ideas of what's a puzzle and what's not. There were LOTS of puzzles in Back to the Future. Lots of really good ones, too!
Maybe you're just too good at them, adventures games are too easy for you now. :P

I am definitely not that good at puzzles. But back to the future had some of the easier puzzles for me and often i felt the game gave me too many hints even before trying to solve the puzzle.
And if you happen to get stuck then it often tells you straight out.
The puzzles in tales of monkey island was much more challenging for me, even though those were also easier than the first monkey island games.

Another thing i found lacking was the inventory and how there was no puzzles that lets you combine objects.

I have nothing against hints if it was possible to turn them off completely though.

[boxman]

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

:/
EASIER puzzles maybe, but still puzzles. They were just as much puzzles as the ones in other Telltale games I've played.
Look, I wasn't raised with Sierra or LucasArts's moon logic bullcrap. To me, "get cat hair to make a fake mustache to impersonate a guy who doesn't even have a mustache" isn't a puzzle, it's a brain aneurysm.
I'll stick to Sam & Max and Back to the Future with their "non-puzzles" according to you then, thanks very much.

Sam & Max was for me much better when it came to puzzles compared to back to the future.

[boxman]

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

Now, I could spend a lot of time explaining why the puzzles in BttF are a broken, player insulting mess, but why would I when Rather Dashing has already done it for me. Now, if you still like the game then all the power to you, but please, don't go around saying that the game has many puzzles and that they are really good. That's just wrong, completely and truly wrong.

Even though I knew this game was flawed, i found this to be a very interesting read. Do you know if Rather Dashing did analysis of the other episodes? Did a quick search but could not find anything.

[Woodsyblue]

Originally Posted by boxman

Even though I knew this game was flawed, i found this to be a very interesting read. Do you know if Rather Dashing did analysis of the other episodes? Did a quick search but could not find anything.

Yeah, he did one for Episode two as well, though that one was not as thorough.

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

It's fine, I forgive you! Yeah, I wasn't trolling, I must just suck at adventure games because I had to think about a few puzzles in BttF Episode 1. I didn't mean to say they were GREAT puzzles, but they weren't BAD, at least I didn't think so, so that's just what I meant by they were "good." They weren't too easy (to me) or totally nonsensical. Satisfactory, I guess, maybe is a better word?

Like I said, look closely and I think you'll find BttF guides you through many of the puzzles. I mean there are some real puzzles in there, but there is usually only about one or two per episode, which in my opinion is totally unacceptable.

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

The snail and gong puzzle DEFINITELY isn't completely batcrap insane in the way that Gabriel Knight puzzle is, but to me, it felt like borderline to that type of ridiculous logic. It... makes sense, in a WAY, but it's a stretch because though it's hinted at, it's not hinted at very WELL. After you paint the gong red even Sam points out how he didn't think that would actually work! It's absurd to point where I'm pretty sure Telltale themselves realized it by including that line.

Yeah, that joke was Telltale making fun of themselves and the bizzare logic used in adventure games. I loved it.

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

Humor and story is what I do admit I enjoy most out of adventure games, but I love a good puzzle too, pretty evident by the fact some of my all time favorite other video games not made by Telltale are also puzzle games or puzzle-based adventure games (examples: The NeverhoOd as I mentioned earlier, Valve's Portal games and ATLUS's Catherine). Sam & Max usually has FANTASTIC puzzles and that's just another bullet point on my enormous list of reasons why I love the series, but every now and then I do feel it's been guilty of having some I could just not wrap my brain around in any conceivable manner. And that's really frustrating to me, because Sam & Max does have such good humor and story, I really get immersed in it when playing... so when I get stuck it takes me right out of the experience. Nothing makes me madder than when this awesome and hilarious story comes to a grinding halt just because I can't solve a puzzle. That's usually why if I can't figure it out after like 15 minutes or so, I look up what I'm supposed to do, and don't force myself to go and try and think about it for hours.

Have you tried the games in-built hint systems? In season 1 you can talk to Max and he gives you clues, albeit obscure clues, for solving puzzles. In season 2 by turning hints on you get Sam & Max saying hints when you haven't made progress in a while. I remember I was really stuck in Night of the Raving Dead, the holy water puzzle. I turned on hints and Max said to go back to the office. Once I knew where I was supposed to be looking it helped a great deal in solving a puzzle that had me well and truly stumped, without ruining it for me.

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

I can't at all agree Telltale's been lacking in well-designed puzzles lately, though. Sam & Max: The Devil's Playhouse was hands down the best season (and also the best game Telltale has ever made, but why specifically is for another post) and I wasn't dissatisfied with Back to the Future Episode 1. If the Puzzle Agent games count, I also love those games and their puzzles. I haven't played Jurassic Park or The Walking Dead, but I know the former was just a bad game in general (hey, everybody has their screw-ups) while I've heard excellent things about the latter so far and hope to play it soon.

When I say Telltale's been lacking in well-designed puzzles lately, I mean BttF, JP and TWD. TDP wasn't as bad as any of those games, gameplay-wise, but it was a step back from season 2 and even season 1, and I found that disappointing. Also, there was a lot less interactivity in TDP compared to the other two seasons. However it did have a stronger and more well told story than the others and there was definitely a lot to love. I personally rank the seasons: 1) Season 2 2) The Devil's Playhouse 3) Season 1.

Sam & Max season 2 is one of my favourite adventure games of all time. It was ridiculously funny, more challenging than any other Telltale game, and filled with fan service. Also, time-travelling mariachi's! The only thing I didn't like about season 2 is Moai Better Blues, which I thought was one of the weaker Sam & Max episode. But it also had my favourite Telltale episode of all time, Chariots of the Dogs.

I still say ToMI is the best series Telltale have ever done, it was a far more balanced experience that hit all the right notes, but Sam & Max season 2 is right up there.

[Tora Newton Y.]

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

Have you tried the games in-built hint systems? In season 1 you can talk to Max and he gives you clues, albeit obscure clues, for solving puzzles. In season 2 by turning hints on you get Sam & Max saying hints when you haven't made progress in a while. I remember I was really stuck in Night of the Raving Dead, the holy water puzzle. I turned on hints and Max said to go back to the office. Once I knew where I was supposed to be looking it helped a great deal in solving a puzzle that had me well and truly stumped, without ruining it for me.

Yes, I've had the hints on. While they've helped on maybe one or two occasions, they usually almost always only tell me what I already know and aren't helpful at all. Or they'll tell you nothing at all or something really vague that there's little chance will click. Example, in the 3rd act of 303, one of the hints Sam will give you if you're stuck trying to get the Gift-Giving Pendent is "I'd give the Pharaoh an aglet, but he had them all destroyed." Unless you remember the VERY brief bit about the aglets from the beginning of that segment, you'll probably have no idea what he's on about. By then I'd completely forgotten what an aglet WAS. Though to be fair, Act 3 of 303 was in general kind of badly designed as far as puzzles, and it's really the only BIG stain one the otherwise incredibly impressive third season, I just can't think of another example right now.

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

TDP wasn't as bad as any of those games, gameplay-wise, but it was a step back from season 2 and even season 1, and I found that disappointing. Also, there was a lot less interactivity in TDP compared to the other two seasons. However it did have a stronger and more well told story than the others and there was definitely a lot to love. I personally rank the seasons: 1) Season 2 2) The Devil's Playhouse 3) Season 1.

Wait, LESS interactivity? Seriously?
My only even vague guess as to why you'd think that is due the fact The Devil's Playhouse lacked any mini-games... which the series doesn't need and never needed anyway. It's a point and click adventure game, it doesn't need boxing and driving and shooting mini-games. In Seasons 1&2 the mini-games were almost ALWAYS excessive and entirely pointless, they could have (and honestly probably should have) been cut out completely. They just... weren't and aren't necessary. Yet another compliment I can give The Devil's Playhouse was getting rid of them.

Just asking, do you just personally LIKE Season 2 better, or do you actually think Season 2 is actually a better game than The Devil's Playhouse? Because the former is a perfectly acceptable opinion, that's fine if Season 2 is just more your taste! But the latter? ... No, I'm sorry, no. It's... not. It's really, REALLY not.

[Woodsyblue]

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

Wait, LESS interactivity? Seriously?
My only even vague guess as to why you'd think that is due the fact The Devil's Playhouse lacked any mini-games... which the series doesn't need and never needed anyway. It's a point and click adventure game, it doesn't need boxing and driving and shooting mini-games. In Seasons 1&2 the mini-games were almost ALWAYS excessive and entirely pointless, they could have (and honestly probably should have) been cut out completely. They just... weren't and aren't necessary. Yet another compliment I can give The Devil's Playhouse was getting rid of them.

When I say less interactivity I don't mean less puzzle games, I mean that there is less in the world to explore. When you walk into a room in TDP there isn't nearly as much to do or interact with. They limit your options, as well as potential jokes, by reducing hotspots and inventory items. This also makes the game far easier. And, contrary to your opinion, I don't believe simplifying an adventure game and reducing challenge and thinking should be considered fixing them. These games aren't just about keeping up a pace and moving the story forward, the good ones also stimulate your mind.

The pulse of the storytelling isn't even that important in Sam & Max, it's all about the journey. Even Chuck Jordan, a former Telltale writer who worked on every Sam & Max season to date, says in the comments section of this blog post that, 'Sam & Max is built on non-sequiturs, which is why I think they actually work better as loosely-connected episodes than long, overarching storylines.' (Eighth comment, second-last paragraph.)

Now, you obviously have a bias against getting stuck in adventure games but have you ever considered that it's not an entirely bad thing? You learn from the times you get stuck and that makes you a better player. As they repeatedly say in the new Batman films, 'Why do we fall down? So we can learn to pick ourselves back up again.' When a game is designed for players to never get stuck then what's the point of playing it? What do we learn? Why not forsake the interactive element altogether and just go watch a movie or tv show? Dumbing down the interactive element kills the immersion, and rather than being players in the events we become spectators.

Now, TDP isn't as bad as all that. There are some puzzles and there is some thinking involved and I don't need to mention the story because that is great, but it is a noticeable step back from previous seasons in terms of challenge and how much you can interact with, and I, personally, found that to be quite disappointing. And this isn't just a bias against one big story format compared to self-contained episodes because I still think TDP is better than season 1 in every way except puzzle design and interactivity.

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

Just asking, do you just personally LIKE Season 2 better, or do you actually think Season 2 is actually a better game than The Devil's Playhouse? Because the former is a perfectly acceptable opinion, that's fine if Season 2 is just more your taste! But the latter? ... No, I'm sorry, no. It's... not. It's really, REALLY not.

Both. And to be honest, I think your bias and hatred of getting stuck is blinding you from some of TDP's weaknesses. I know season 2 is not perfect. It is too hard and obscure at times. The plot doesn't always make sense (though does it really have to in Sam & Max?) and Moai Better Blues is a weak episode, but there is so much it does right.

The Devil's Playhouse is good, it's just not as rewarding.

[Tora Newton Y.]

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

When I say less interactivity I don't mean less puzzle games, I mean that there is less in the world to explore. When you walk into a room in TDP there isn't nearly as much to do or interact with. They limit your options, as well as potential jokes, by reducing hotspots and inventory items. This also makes the game far easier. And, contrary to your opinion, I don't believe simplifying an adventure game and reducing challenge and thinking should be considered fixing them. These games aren't just about keeping up a pace and moving the story forward, the good ones also stimulate your mind.

I will agree TDP is a bit easier. ... But I say this is good thing, because I feel like Seasons 1&2 were often maybe a little too difficult for the average person. They're not ABSURDLY hard, but people who perhaps aren't as experienced or good at adventure games may struggle much more with them.
And that's another thing - TDP is a more accessible game. It's something that even someone who's NOT a hardcore adventure gamer can get into and enjoy and probably not have a huge amount of difficulty with.
Getting rid of pointless mini-games I don't think counts as "reducing challenge" either, since the mini-games were always more just annoying than actually challenging.
"less in the world to explore. When you walk into a room in TDP there isn't nearly as much to do or interact with. They limit your options, as well as potential jokes, by reducing hotspots and inventory items."
You SURE you're not just messing with me? 'Cause I've found more optional dialogues, secret hotspots, and easter eggs in TDP than either Season 1 OR 2. If you couldn't find them I just don't think you were really looking. And OF COURSE there's less inventory items because inventory items aren't the focus of the game, or at least not as much as the focus as they'd been previously, the PSYCHIC POWERS are the entire hook. TDP just gives you DIFFERENT options, it doesn't limit them.

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

Now, you obviously have a bias against getting stuck in adventure games but have you ever considered that it's not an entirely bad thing? You learn from the times you get stuck and that makes you a better player. Dumbing down the interactive element kills the immersion, and rather than being players in the events we become spectators.

Unfortunately, that's not how most people's brains work. Sure, when you play an adventure game, ESPECIALLY one like Sam & Max, you have to wrap your head around the world and its type of logic - but there's only so much of that a person is capable of. A player can't always be expected to read the game designer's minds. While sometimes you can definitely get more and more used to how thinks work the more you play, sadly "practice makes perfect" doesn't always apply to adventure games because they're based around logic, and logic can be a very personal and mental process type of thing. There's being taught to think outside the box, and then there's being presented with something you JUST cannot fathom or would've realized on your own by any stretch.
Easier puzzles doesn't constitute "dumbing down interactive elements." LESS puzzles would maybe, but not EASIER puzzles. (btw, TDP didn't have less puzzles than 1&2 either)

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

Both. And to be honest, I think your bias and hatred of getting stuck is blinding you from some of TDP's weaknesses.

You keep saying I'm biased but I've been fully able explain factually and give examples to support myself, so that's not a bias, since I can back it up by looking at it from a design perspective and not just a personal one. I've honestly been looking at this as objectively as I possibly can.
I never said TDP was a perfect game, either! Like I said, Act 3 of 303 is kind of badly designed, and that's one of the the low points of the game. Also in 303, the Noir Sam Interrogation mechanic is introduced and then taken away MUCH too soon. By the time you get the hang of it, you NEVER use it again, which is a huge waste.
305's final puzzle is also somewhat lacking. You can basically solve it earlier in the episode if you take the time to play around with the records, which you probably will, since your first inclination is always to look around and mess with everything in the vicinity you can. The mucus cloning part at the end also seems like it was made not just a cutscene only for the sake of making it not just a cutscene; it really serves no purpose as a puzzle and barely is one.
301 could've used at least one more psychic power for Acts 2 and 3, because with the exception of the opening scene (Act 1), it's pretty much all teleportation which can get a bit tedious at times.
302 also maybe could've introduced it's gameplay a little better. It's an absolutely BRILLIANT mechanic but it might be a bit confusing at first to pick up exactly how it works, what with the playing out of order and skipping between reels.
So yeah, I can point out PLENTY of flaws or criticisms in TDP. It's still the best Sam & Max game, and one of the two contenders for Telltale's best game they've ever made, the other being Tales of Monkey Island.
Also, TDP may be my favorite, but that isn't why I think it deserves the most praise. A game being your favorite and thinking a game is the best aren't mutually exclusive. It's what's called subjective and objective points of view.

[Woodsyblue]

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

I will agree TDP is a bit easier. ... But I say this is good thing, because I feel like Seasons 1&2 were often maybe a little too difficult for the average person. They're not ABSURDLY hard, but people who perhaps aren't as experienced or good at adventure games may struggle much more with them.
And that's another thing - TDP is a more accessible game. It's something that even someone who's NOT a hardcore adventure gamer can get into and enjoy and probably not have a huge amount of difficulty with.

You'd like to think that most people who played though TDP had played Season's 1 and 2 before. I know not everyone did but I think it is safe to assume that one of TDP biggest consumer bases is people who played the past games. So why is the third season being made for the average person rather than the Sam & Max fan that has been following the games since Hit the Road or one of the first two seasons? It's a bit of a downer for the long-time fans and is a good example of Telltale's new sell-out philosophies.

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

You SURE you're not just messing with me? 'Cause I've found more optional dialogues, secret hotspots, and easter eggs in TDP than either Season 1 OR 2. If you couldn't find them I just don't think you were really looking. And OF COURSE there's less inventory items because inventory items aren't the focus of the game, or at least not as much as the focus as they'd been previously, the PSYCHIC POWERS are the entire hook. TDP just gives you DIFFERENT options, it doesn't limit them.

I decided to put this to the test to make sure I wasn't going insane. I counted all hotspots present in Stinky's Diner in both episode 201 and episode 304. In episode 201 I found 30 unique hotspots in the diner (I counted the two tiki torches on either side of the jukebox as one hotspot). In episode 304 I found 14 unique hotspots (including the additional hand that pops out after you try to use the toaster). Now, I'm not going to bother doing this for a whole episode but I think you can start to see what I mean when I say TDP contains less hotspots. Less than half is a bit pathetic in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

A player can't always be expected to read the game designer's minds.

This is a bit of an exaggeration considering that these games aren't even considered overly hard by adventure game standards.

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

While sometimes you can definitely get more and more used to how thinks work the more you play, sadly "practice makes perfect" doesn't always apply to adventure games because they're based around logic, and logic can be a very personal and mental process type of thing. There's being taught to think outside the box, and then there's being presented with something you JUST cannot fathom or would've realized on your own by any stretch.

It is the job of the game designer to make sure the puzzles are challanging without being illogical, and their success is usually judged on a subjective basis. I don't think the first two seasons ever got too hard, you do. I don't think we are going to change each other's minds on this. To each his own, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

Easier puzzles doesn't constitute "dumbing down interactive elements." LESS puzzles would maybe, but not EASIER puzzles. (btw, TDP didn't have less puzzles than 1&2 either)

I went through and counted the hotspots in an area. I can go through a couple of episodes and count all the puzzles but I'm not sure I can be bothered. At least not right now. I will say this with certainty, though, there are far less good puzzles in TDP, and that's the important thing.

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

You keep saying I'm biased but I've been fully able explain factually and give examples to support myself, so that's not a bias, since I can back it up by looking at it from a design perspective and not just a personal one. I've honestly been looking at this as objectively as I possibly can.

I'll be honest, I don't think you have. I think you are enjoying these games on a base level, and I have nothing against that and people who just enjoy these games for what they are, but you are making all these claims about the content and execution of the gameplay without the critical thinking or factual evidence to back them up.

I mean before you were saying that BttF had lots of very good puzzles for crying out loud so I really don't think you are looking at these game with a strong critical eye. Like I said before, I have nothing against that, but I find it's good to really know what you're talking about and have your facts straight before making bold, declarative claims.

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

302 also maybe could've introduced it's gameplay a little better. It's an absolutely BRILLIANT mechanic but it might be a confusing at first to pick up exactly how it works, what with the playing out of order and skipping between reels.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

Also in 303, the Noir Sam Interrogation mechanic is introduced and then taken away MUCH too soon. By the time you get the hang of it, you NEVER use it again, which is a huge waste.

If my memory serves me correctly I believe you do use it at least once more after that segment. I can't off the top of my head remember when, though.

[Tora Newton Y.]

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

You'd like to think that most people who played though TDP had played Season's 1 and 2 before. I know not everyone did but I think it is safe to assume that one of TDP biggest consumer bases is people who played the past games. So why is the third season being made for the average person rather than the Sam & Max fan that has been following the games since Hit the Road or one of the first two seasons? It's a bit of a downer for the long-time fans and is a good example of Telltale's new sell-out philosophies.

Because appealing ONLY to the customers you already have is an absolutely idiotic business decision. Whether you like it or not, Telltale is going more mainstream. That isn't "selling out" (also if you THINK they've "sold out" why don't you just leave or stop buying their games?), they're just trying to broaden their audience.
What a smart company does is try to pull in as many new customers as they possibly can, and the fact you dislike this simply because it's not EXACTLY how YOU want it to be, is honestly an extremely selfish and entitled viewpoint. Telltale shouldn't have to cater to you specifically just because you've played the older games. It's not "selling out", it's being smart.
That's why it's good that TDP is more accessible to everyone besides "hardcore fans." It may technically be the third installment, but it even says on TDP's page right here on Telltale's site, "Even if you've never played a Sam & Max game before, this is a perfectly fine place to start!"
Dropping the season numbers from the titles even was also part of adding this new accessibility; TDP is not officially titled Sam & Max Season 3. It's just Sam & Max: The Devil's Playhouse. And then the retroactive re-titling of the first two seasons; Sam & Max Season 1 into Sam & Max Save the World and Sam & Max Season 2 into Sam & Max Beyond Time and Space.
Telltale broadening their audience will lead to them being more successful, and thus being able to create more and better games. To say you don't want them bringing in as many new players to their games as they can is to say you don't want Telltale to be successful.

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

I decided to put this to the test to make sure I wasn't going insane. I counted all hotspots present in Stinky's Diner in both episode 201 and episode 304. In episode 201 I found 30 unique hotspots in the diner (I counted the two tiki torches on either side of the jukebox as one hotspot). In episode 304 I found 14 unique hotspots (including the additional hand that pops out after you try to use the toaster). Now, I'm not going to bother doing this for a whole episode but I think you can start to see what I mean when I say TDP contains less hotspots. Less than half is a bit pathetic in my opinion.

The Stinky's Diners in 201 and 304 are NOT FAIR COMPARISONS. AT ALL.
Think about this for a second: in 201, that's the very first time you're in Stinky's Diner. So obviously there's going to be A LOT of unique hotspots, since it's a new location that's never been visited before.
Now, in 304, you've already been to Stinky's Diner SEVERAL times. And look at the situation; you're trying to escape the Samulacra/Dogglegangers. You're NOT exploring the area for the first time so there doesn't NEED to be as many extra hotspots, since the object of the current situation is to find a way to ESCAPE the diner. Of COURSE there's going to be less.
Now, the Stinky's Diners in 201 and 301 MIGHT be better to compare, because they're both when you're in the diner for the first time that season. And in 301, the Diner's been changed more to reflect Grandpa Stinky rather than Girl Stinky, so there's new elements to it, making it different from its Season 2 incarnation.
Also, are you counting unique hotspots in the location throughout the ENTIRE episode, or just the first time you're in that location? Because hotspots are often added/removed throughout different points of the episode (i.e. Flint's lunch isn't there when he's not at the Diner), so the only fair way to compare them would be to count the unique hotspots in the area throughout the entire episode, at every possible point in the episode where something may be different.

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

This is a bit of an exaggeration considering that these games aren't even considered overly hard by adventure game standards.
It is the job of the game designer to make sure the puzzles are challanging without being illogical, and their success is usually judged on a subjective basis. I don't think the first two seasons ever got too hard, you do. I don't think we are going to change each other's minds on this. To each his own, I suppose.

It still applies, no matter how difficult you may judge the game to be.
Exactly. I don't assume everyone thinks sometimes the puzzles got a bit too difficult in first two seasons, so you shouldn't assume everyone thinks the puzzles in TDP are too easy.
Because as you said, a designer's success in that aspect is usually judged subjectively.

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

I went through and counted the hotspots in an area. I can go through a couple of episodes and count all the puzzles but I'm not sure I can be bothered. At least not right now. I will say this with certainty, though, there are far less good puzzles in TDP, and that's the important thing.

As stated before, you did not count them fairly.
Also, as stated before, you can't say they are "far less good puzzles in TDP", because that's far too subjective, and goes against what you said about what kind of basis a puzzle's success is typically judged on.

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

I'll be honest, I don't think you have. I think you are enjoying these games on a base level, and I have nothing against that and people who just enjoy these games for what they are, but you are making all these claims about the content and execution of the gameplay without the critical thinking or factual evidence to back them up.
I mean before you were saying that BttF had lots of very good puzzles for crying out loud so I really don't think you are looking at these game with a strong critical eye. Like I said before, I have nothing against that, but I find it's good to really know what you're talking about and have your facts straight before making bold, declarative claims.

Okay now you're just trolling.
I have provided as much factual evidence as I POSSIBLY could have, far more than you have. What the else do you possibly want me to provide?
And for damn's sake, I WAS UNINFORMED ABOUT BACK TO THE FUTURE. I'VE ONLY PLAYED THE FIRST EPISODE. WE DROPPED THAT SUBJECT BECAUSE I WAS NOT IN THE PROPER POSITION TO SPEAK ABOUT IT. OF COURSE I WASN'T RIGHT, I WAS STUPIDLY TALKING ABOUT A GAME I HAVEN'T PLAYED. I MADE THAT VERY CLEAR. The fact you're bringing that up in an attempt to discredit me is obviously showing you're losing the argument.
But Sam & Max is something I CAN speak with a strong critical sense about, and no offense, but I really think you're just pulling bullcrap now.

Originally Posted by Woodysblue

If my memory serves me correctly I believe you do use it at least once more after that segment. I can't off the top of my head remember when, though.

You don't use it again after you arrive at the Museum in 303. It's REFERENCED again, several times, but never actually USED again.

[Woodsyblue]

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

The Stinky's Diners in 201 and 304 are NOT FAIR COMPARISONS. AT ALL.
Think about this for a second: in 201, that's the very first time you're in Stinky's Diner. So obviously there's going to be A LOT of unique hotspots, since it's a new location that's never been visited before.
Now, in 304, you've already been to Stinky's Diner SEVERAL times. And look at the situation; you're trying to escape the Samulacra/Dogglegangers. You're NOT exploring the area for the first time so there doesn't NEED to be as many extra hotspots, since the object of the current situation is to find a way to ESCAPE the diner. Of COURSE there's going to be less.
Also, are you counting unique hotspots in the location throughout the ENTIRE episode, or just the first time you're in that location? Because hotspots are often added/removed throughout different points of the episode (i.e. Flint's lunch isn't there when he's not at the Diner), so the only fair way to compare them would be to count the unique hotspots in the area throughout the entire episode, at every possible point in the episode where something may be different.

I'm going to ignore the rest of what you said for a moment because you are running off the assumption that my statistics are somehow skewed and misrepresentative of the whole picture when I can assure you they are not. I'll do better than assure you, I'll prove it using factual evidence.

I went through episode 304 and episode 201 from start to finish and counted all the unique hotspots in each. I didn't count characters* or exits. When additional hotspots were triggered by actions I added them too. The results were pretty much what I expected. By my count Episode 304 had 71 unique hotspots and 201 had 139. As you can see, 304 has just a tiny bit over half. Even factoring in human error (of which I'm sure there was plenty) you can't possibly still say that TDP had as many hotspots as previous seasons. The difference is glaring!

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

Now, the Stinky's Diners in 201 and 301 MIGHT be better to compare, because they're both when you're in the diner for the first time that season.

I went though Stinky's Diner in 301 and would you like to know how many unique hotspots I found? 14 again. You can come back to the diner later and press the button behind the counter, but that's not going to make up 16 hotspots.

Originally Posted by Tora Newton Y.

And for damn's sake, I WAS UNINFORMED ABOUT BACK TO THE FUTURE. I'VE ONLY PLAYED THE FIRST EPISODE. WE DROPPED THAT SUBJECT BECAUSE I WAS NOT IN THE PROPER POSITION TO SPEAK ABOUT IT. OF COURSE I WASN'T RIGHT, I WAS STUPIDLY TALKING ABOUT A GAME I HAVEN'T PLAYED. I MADE THAT VERY CLEAR. The fact you're bringing that up in an attempt to discredit me is obviously showing you're losing the argument.

The reason why I bought up the BttF thing is because it was another example of a baseless claim you made without insight of evidence, just like when you said TDP had just as many hotspots as previous seasons. I can see why you took it the wrong way and I apologise for any offence taken.

I didn't really want this to become this heated. I come off as blunt sometimes, I don't really mean to.

*I did count the dogglegangers because you cant really interact them more than hotspots anyway.