Commerce means civilization

[Vainamoinen]

Originally Posted by The_Cheshire_Cat

what you gave to me, with extra.

Yeah, I did notice the "extra".

Cool it in here. Thanks.

But continue, please. Nothing as intellectually stimulating as railway history from the steam locomotive to the Zombie-powered Air Rail (ZAR).

Originally Posted by The_Cheshire_Cat

not very swift in thought and reasoning naming your cognitive capabilities Gman you don't know what you are talking about I am sorry

GODAWFUL apology. Let's talk about social capabilities and maybe the responsibility horizon of a kindergartener, while we're so nicely insulting each other?

[The_Cheshire_Cat]

Originally Posted by Vainamoinen

Yeah, I did notice the "extra".

Cool it in here. Thanks.

Yeah that was hot though right? Kid came at me all out of left field and I was like...yo pump the brakes son! And then gave him one extra!

LOL. Thanks for not locking the thread.

Thanks to our chat I apologized to the offended party and I promise not to make... people feel bad.

[ou7shined]

Back on "track" as it were..

I think that grabbing a train would be a pretty safe bet in order to leap great distances in the months following an apocalypse. For a start these diesel jobs carry an immense amount of fuel - and we know for sure it's diesel as that's what's on the cover screen for episode 3 Long Road Ahead... with Lee at the helm bouncing a walker off the tracks. Diesel engines are simple low maintenance lumps and I'm pretty damn sure I'd be able to get one started if I had to.

One would think that by this time all other rail traffic would have stopped or crashed by now so the only other moving hazard should be other survivors coming the other way - so only travel by day and with a spotter posted out front. And only travel at a speed where stopping is easy.

The worst thing would be the risk of large obstructions - say a passenger train taken over by the infected takes a corner too fast and flips and over block all the tracks, unless a crane is nearby you are pretty much screwed.

Another possible scenario would be risk from ambushes set up by bandits/raiders but as the rail traffic would be so extremely light the chances of this are slim.

The points system is the real killer. Ok it wouldn't be too hard to run a set of wrong points, reverse, switch the points manually and carry on but the biggest factor is knowing where you are going. Holding course might be obvious on more rural lines but once you hit a big station it would become almost impossible to navigate all the possibilities without a plan or a map - it could take days. And I don't think that a well timed appearance of a random rail worker would solve it either.

Hey at least it gets you closer to where you are going.

[The_Cheshire_Cat]

Originally Posted by ou7shined

Back on "track" as it were..

I think that grabbing a train would be a pretty safe bet in order to leap great distances in the months following an apocalypse. For a start these diesel jobs carry an immense amount of fuel - and we know for sure it's diesel as that's what's on the cover screen for episode 3 Long Road Ahead... with Lee at the helm bouncing a walker off the tracks. Diesel engines are simple low maintenance lumps and I'm pretty damn sure I'd be able to get one started if I had to.

The points system is the real killer. Ok it wouldn't be too hard to run a set of wrong points, reverse, switch the points manually and carry on but the biggest factor is knowing where you are going. Holding course might be obvious on more rural lines but once you hit a big station it would become almost impossible to navigate all the possibilities without a plan or a map - it could take days. And I don't think that a well timed appearance of a random rail worker would solve it either.

Hey at least it gets you closer to where you are going.

Yeah, but where to go? Okay so we know that the train is diesel and not steam. And the train is a juggernaut on the tracks. Fuel to last a while. Sounds like a rolling fortress to me.

I can't wait to see who runs the train.

You are right, getting near big stations and train yards will be a problem if one doesn't have a map.

But it just doesn't fit...its just seems to 'easy' ya know? The people running the train need to eat and what not. It just seems like its more logical for it to be a "road of trade" between two points and just travels back and forth. Besides all that noise crashing into stuff would attract walkers...not that it matters. Guess it would be great fun to run a few over with a train.

And maybe going back and forth over the same line would attract bandits, even if it is a train, no one wants an ambush.

Originally Posted by godzilla999666

My guess is that they are going anywhere they can. Most roads and interstate are clogged with stopped cars. In theory the railroad tracks would be less likely to be clogged.

Most of the small tracks around here only have a train a day at the most, meaning nit a lot of traffic. If the train was in a bigger town, then they would have lots more issues with other stopped trains.

Also switches all still havemanual handles, that they could stop the train before switch, get out and throw switch, abd get back on and start train going again.

Any place is better than here huh? So I think we have figured out that the train is not going anywhere near big cities. For one you need a map and for two the odds of running into a stalled train is greater. So that tells me that the person driving the train knows where they are going, or at least knows where they don't want to be.

The manual switches I understand but, don't you have to know where the switches are well in advance to be able to stop a train in time to pull the switch.

Originally Posted by Vainamoinen

GODAWFUL apology. Let's talk about social capabilities and maybe the responsibility horizon of a kindergartener

Let's move on from the past.

[Master of Aeons]

Ugh. This is the worst.

Okay. No one may be qualified to call your bluff, but Atlas Shrugged has about as much to do with modern trains as does "The Polar Express". Just because she ran the train business in the PAST does not make you an expert on trains. Hell, I played Resident Evil 3, which worked in a bunch of trains that you could make use of by pulling on a lever. Does that mean that in order for trains to work, you need a metropolitan zombie apocalypse, an assault rifle and a godmoding BOW chasing you?

No, a train simply requires fuel and a conductor to run, as you avoided proving in your original post. The rest of your post is false conjecture and "holy shit, I read a book that's 1000 pages of the author telling me how to think".

If there are any survivors of the original crew or someone - like DOUG - who is capable of learning new things, then anyone could power the train themselves. Doing so would be a major plus in the zombie wasteland where fuel is scarce and returning power to the station is easier than drilling for more oil. (I'm assuming it's like the electrical trolleys here. It could be coal. You nor I can have this argument.)

You don't have a single valid point in your original post. The rest of the thread just gets worse.

[ou7shined]

Originally Posted by The_Cheshire_Cat

Yeah, but where to go? Okay so we know that the train is diesel and not steam. And the train is a juggernaut on the tracks. Fuel to last a while. Sounds like a rolling fortress to me.

I can't wait to see who runs the train.

You are right, getting near big stations and train yards will be a problem if one doesn't have a map.

But it just doesn't fit...its just seems to 'easy' ya know? The people running the train need to eat and what not. It just seems like its more logical for it to be a "road of trade" between two points and just travels back and forth. Besides all that noise crashing into stuff would attract walkers...not that it matters. Guess it would be great fun to run a few over with a train.

And maybe going back and forth over the same line would attract bandits, even if it is a train, no one wants an ambush.



Any place is better than here huh? So I think we have figured out that the train is not going anywhere near big cities. For one you need a map and for two the odds of running into a stalled train is greater. So that tells me that the person driving the train knows where they are going, or at least knows where they don't want to be.

The manual switches I understand but, don't you have to know where the switches are well in advance to be able to stop a train in time to pull the switch.

Hey, it’s an American apology.

Ahh but you don't need people to run the trains in this situation. A diesel train carries it's own fuel and generates it's own locomotion. You hop on, turn the key (figuratively speaking) and off you go. In a non-apocalyptic society you do have people to run them - you need maintenance and logistics and that's before you even staff the day to day running of the stations. Here you just use it and dump it.

Where are they going? Maybe the plot only requires them to travel a shot distance to achieve some goal, perhaps it's a bit more permanent.
I understand that the game is set in a real location (not being from the US I don't know where - I've heard names but they mean little to me). If it were me, I head to as remote a place as possible which can sustain life. An island for example would be good - ok Dawn of the Dead didn't do this theory any favours but let's face it they were mostly all a**holes with a poor grasp of the situation.
Yep I'd head for the coast. I don't know if it would be possible for Lee's crew to get from their current location directly to the coast avoiding major cities but it really is better than waiting around in a stupid Motel. Even if you don't find an island you could clear out a supply ship or something, secure it (er... lift up the gangplank ) and sustain a small group* on one for months at a time.

*Of course staying in groups is bad too now... as sooner or later someone is bound to die, by whatever means - not just by being bitten. And that's bad news for any group.


It wouldn't be too much grief if you mistakenly went through a set of points that sent you in the wrong direction, all you do is back up and switch them then head on again.

[The_Cheshire_Cat]

Originally Posted by Master of Aeons

Ugh. This is the worst.

Okay. No one may be qualified to call your bluff, but Atlas Shrugged has about as much to do with modern trains as does "The Polar Express". Just because she ran the train business in the PAST does not make you an expert on trains. Hell, I played Resident Evil 3, which worked in a bunch of trains that you could make use of by pulling on a lever. Does that mean that in order for trains to work, you need a metropolitan zombie apocalypse, an assault rifle and a godmoding BOW chasing you?

No, a train simply requires fuel and a conductor to run, as you avoided proving in your original post. The rest of your post is false conjecture and "holy shit, I read a book that's 1000 pages of the author telling me how to think".

If there are any survivors of the original crew or someone - like DOUG - who is capable of learning new things, then anyone could power the train themselves. Doing so would be a major plus in the zombie wasteland where fuel is scarce and returning power to the station is easier than drilling for more oil. (I'm assuming it's like the electrical trolleys here. It could be coal. You nor I can have this argument.)

You don't have a single valid point in your original post. The rest of the thread just gets worse.

Yipe!! I get to try out my new “Let people talk smack but don’t talk smack back.” Policy.

I never said I am an expert on trains. But since it seems like you know something about the book then you know why reading the book made me think of trains. Again as I said to another member. I don’t defend Rand, I’m simply saying where I got the idea to think of the train system. I hope I made my self clear in a nice and pleasant fashion.

Lets move on.. I maintain that the rest of my post in not “conjucture” as evidence of the other conversations and the german allowing the thread to run. If the thread had nothing to offer it would have closed. Funny that you and the other bloke are the only ones saying the thread is worthless but you post in it, contribute to the topic a little and pepper me with snark all at the same time. Very talented. I brag to no one that I read a book. You seem to be upset with Rand, I’m sorry you can’t take that up with her. Either that or you are intimidated that I can read, and mentioned a book with a philosophy that you don’t like. I’m sorry I offended you.

But back to the meat and potatoes that didn’t involve being snide.

True a train to run on track only needs fuel and an operator. But trying to guess the plot needs more detail than that. We are trying to figure out where the train is going how it got started and other fun stuff. I am sorry that you don’t like the book and my ideas. I am sorry that you are so offended you had to insult me. I am so sorry.

In regards to your last paragraph someone else mentioned that the train is diesel, they saw a picture in one of the future episodes. I think had you read this thread you would have found answers…oh dang I forgot this thread is a bad thread because of Rand and my offending you. But if you care to know some of the things you mentioned have be brought up by other folks. Check it out.

[Sisterofshane]

Alright, been following this for the morning and I've decided to put my two cents in.

It is indeed entirely plausible that certain facets of infrastructure may be kept in tact. An example of this are the roads built by the Roman Empire that are still in use all over Europe, despite having been built thousands of years ago. Humans are clever creatures and will endeavor to "salvage" what they can from what came before them. Also, it's only been a few months since the apocalypse began, this could very well be the last vestiges of people trying to "retain" what knowledge and technology we have left (there are numerous advantages to having long-distance transit, even after the world has ended!).

That said, I don't think it would have anything to do with "money". Paper currency would be useless. It's more likely it works on either a barter system (trading transportation/safety for fuel, food, whatever else they may need), or on the complete charity of strangers ("Hey, we got this train operational, you want to catch a ride with us?).

Naturally, all of this depends upon whether the train is being operated as more than a "one-time" deal (i.e., if they are making even short runs between destinations and back). It's entirely possible that someone has "claimed" the train and decides to try to run it, and is successful (maybe it's even Lee, and getting the train functional will be a puzzle akin to getting the radio to work in episode one, trololol!).

[ou7shined]

Originally Posted by The_Cheshire_Cat

.... someone else mentioned that the train is diesel, they saw a picture in one of the future episodes.....

Here you go - taken with my phone.

[The_Cheshire_Cat]

Originally Posted by Sisterofshane

Also, it's only been a few months since the apocalypse began, this could very well be the last vestiges of people trying to "retain" what knowledge and technology we have left (there are numerous advantages to having long-distance transit, even after the world has ended!).

That said, I don't think it would have anything to do with "money". Paper currency would be useless. It's more likely it works on either a barter system (trading transportation/safety for fuel, food, whatever else they may need), or on the complete charity of strangers ("Hey, we got this train operational, you want to catch a ride with us?).

Naturally, all of this depends upon whether the train is being operated as more than a "one-time" deal (i.e., if they are making even short runs between destinations and back). It's entirely possible that someone has "claimed" the train and decides to try to run it, and is successful (maybe it's even Lee, and getting the train functional will be a puzzle akin to getting the radio to work in episode one, trololol!).

I like it all actually. Yeah, I think we agreed that paper money is out the question. Barter system. I'm thinking maybe you are right, maybe it was just a one time deal the train is running. I see what you are saying about Lee getting it to work, but I was just thinking since he seems to be in a box car that he just hitched a ride. But yes, maybe it was just a one time ride. That changes everything. Funny you are the first to mention it, that shatters my theory, funny you did it without snark.

So lets say though that the train trip is not a one time deal. Lets say that the train is being run as a continual thing so that things can be "normal". That's pretty exciting for the series. Realistic to me in many regards. Folks trying to get society back up and running.

[Master of Aeons]

I guess the overlooked bit in this is that if it were salvaged, who would have done it but Lee? There are few pockets of humanity around, and getting a train running is about as unlikely as finding and using a tank.

[Kiel555]

Originally Posted by The_Cheshire_Cat

Has this been realized? On the preview of the next episode there is a short clip with Clem and Lee on a train. Clem is asking about adults being mad.

At first I didn’t think about it, but I been reading ‘Atlas Shrugged’ so maybe that’s why it dawned on me but…

In order for that train to run someone has to be driving it. As simple as it may look not just anybody can hop in a train and drive it. In order for the train to move fuel has to be used, and goods must be being transported between one location and other.

So in other words money is moving that train. The train looked empty except for Clem and Lee, so it’s not like it’s a FEMA train. So I wonder then…does this mean there are pockets of civilization in which that train is going back and forth from. A railway system is complicated and expensive to maintain. It takes more than just one train conductor to make it work. That means a lot of people are alive, thriving and most importantly making commerce.

I think the whole train thing is pretty original. I've seen plenty of ZA movies where the group is moving across great distances on foot (how crazy is that?) or in poor condition or lightly up-armored vehicles (that does not seem to go well either). A train could be a very safe way to travel cross-crountry...but travel to where?

I like the commerce idea. Sort of gives one the feeling that things are getting better and back to normal. Unfortunately, this is not a routine ZA with a happy ending. This is a walking dead ZA.

More likely, another group was sheltering in place at a train depot just like Lee's group did at the motel. Now that it looks like this ZA is not going to just blow over they too are looking for a long term safe location. All that's missing is the next hair-brained idea...enter Lee with a hair-brained idea...but where to go.

I hear Nebraska is nice this time of year.

[ommmnomnomnom]

Originally Posted by The_Cheshire_Cat

Has this been realized? On the preview of the next episode there is a short clip with Clem and Lee on a train. Clem is asking about adults being mad.

At first I didn’t think about it, but I been reading ‘Atlas Shrugged’ so maybe that’s why it dawned on me but…

In order for that train to run someone has to be driving it. As simple as it may look not just anybody can hop in a train and drive it. In order for the train to move fuel has to be used, and goods must be being transported between one location and other.

So in other words money is moving that train. The train looked empty except for Clem and Lee, so it’s not like it’s a FEMA train. So I wonder then…does this mean there are pockets of civilization in which that train is going back and forth from. A railway system is complicated and expensive to maintain. It takes more than just one train conductor to make it work. That means a lot of people are alive, thriving and most importantly making commerce.

Id hope money would become irrelevant when z day happened, it's one of the advantages of a zombie apocalypse everyone is given an equal chance of survival, no buying your way out of this one biatch! Na but everyone always forgets who is running the nuclear stations, the sewers, the water, gas and electricity, all this needs constant maintainence to prevent disasters and I'm pretty sure when the zombies came no one wanted to stay behind and keep working, so either way anyone even near a nuclear power station after a few days/weeks is real dead,either from the intial blast or radiation. Combine that with all the others, and you have one bad day to be Alive. the biggest worry is disease (from sewage) and radiation.

[ommmnomnomnom]

Originally Posted by Master of Aeons

Ugh. This is the worst.

Okay. No one may be qualified to call your bluff, but Atlas Shrugged has about as much to do with modern trains as does "The Polar Express". Just because she ran the train business in the PAST does not make you an expert on trains. Hell, I played Resident Evil 3, which worked in a bunch of trains that you could make use of by pulling on a lever. Does that mean that in order for trains to work, you need a metropolitan zombie apocalypse, an assault rifle and a godmoding BOW chasing you?

No, a train simply requires fuel and a conductor to run, as you avoided proving in your original post. The rest of your post is false conjecture and "holy shit, I read a book that's 1000 pages of the author telling me how to think".

If there are any survivors of the original crew or someone - like DOUG - who is capable of learning new things, then anyone could power the train themselves. Doing so would be a major plus in the zombie wasteland where fuel is scarce and returning power to the station is easier than drilling for more oil. (I'm assuming it's like the electrical trolleys here. It could be coal. You nor I can have this argument.)

You don't have a single valid point in your original post. The rest of the thread just gets worse.

A perfect post, I couldnt put it better myself hahaha

[Vainamoinen]

As some guy from the street, you can't get a train to run. That includes Doug (who only a quarter of TWD players have in their group anyway).

I'm not even certain you can get a modern train to go anywhere without constant communication with a manned headquarters somewhere else in the country. These security measures are incredibly tight for good reason.

It'll be interesting to see what Telltale will pick up for a "realistic" portrayal, but eventually, TWD is a drama/action series, not a documentary. Actual train operators will undoubtedly have a sad.

[Sisterofshane]

Originally Posted by Vainamoinen

As some guy from the street, you can't get a train to run. That includes Doug (who only a quarter of TWD players have in their group anyway).

I'm not even certain you can get a modern train to go anywhere without constant communication with a manned headquarters somewhere else in the country. These security measures are incredibly tight for good reason.

It'll be interesting to see what Telltale will pick up for a "realistic" portrayal, but eventually, TWD is a drama/action series, not a documentary. Actual train operators will undoubtedly have a sad.

I'm all for a bit of "suspension of disbelief" on this matter.

[ou7shined]

Originally Posted by Vainamoinen

As some guy from the street, you can't get a train to run. That includes Doug (who only a quarter of TWD players have in their group anyway).

I'm not even certain you can get a modern train to go anywhere without constant communication with a manned headquarters somewhere else in the country. These security measures are incredibly tight for good reason.

It'll be interesting to see what Telltale will pick up for a "realistic" portrayal, but eventually, TWD is a drama/action series, not a documentary. Actual train operators will undoubtedly have a sad.

I think you may be right about passenger trains but I have a feeling that less complicated vehicles are in use too.

I used to work for a company that treated and disposed of hazardous waste. We once had a contract to remove asbestos from electrical boxes on the side of the track. There were other maintenance teams present and the line closest to us was closed off to traffic. We had a diesel locomotive shadowing us which was left running most of the time (I believe that this may have been to charge electrical energy for the main drive) but sometimes it was switched off. It seemed to me that the driver could just jump into the cab, start it up and shunt it up and down the track as and when he decided.
Of course different countries could have different systems for conveying rolling stock.

I'm going to stick with the theory that Lee and his group have found a working tractor unit and have either had help getting it started or have hotwired it.

I have a mechanical background and am pretty sure I could easily get one running. Who wants to be in my group come the ZA?

[8Bit_System]

I thought the same way following this thread, then I started a bit of research and now strongly believe that any and all of us would fail miserably getting a Diesel-electric train to go more then a hundred meters, if we were able to start it at all.

You actually need keys, you need to blow off water that collects in the engine before you start it(otherwhise it could/would tear the pistons apart), the electric motors have to be connected and charged (they apply the actual force to the wheels, the Diesel motor "only" charges them)there are failsafe systems that have to be operated to make sure the conductor is paying attention or the train would autobreak, and so on and on. I was quite surprised actually. Even breaking doesn't seem to be THAT easy.

And my last but definitely strongest concern is fuel. A train will consume from around 15 liters per hour to 750 lph (says the almighty internet), depending on engine speed (engine rpm not driving speed), which would take a massive reserve to have, if you would want to run it on a regular route. Also, how would you pump the stocked Diesel into the train tank? Fuel pumps for that kind of task are highly powered devices, safeguarded by at least 32A CEE power current. Don't expect to link a geni or two on them and make it work.

Article about Diesel locomotives
http://science.howstuffworks.com/tra...comotive10.htm

YouTube (loooong) film about an old Diesel locomotive (skipped through it, still interesting).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7d7t_4dZko&feature

[godzilla999666]

Getting the fuel would not nessary be that big of a problem. Growing up on a farm, we had pumps to stick in our 500 gallon fuel storage that would work on a 12 volt car battery. Also most tractor and farm macheriny today runs on diesel. So any farm that has tractors for raising wheat/corn/milo would have fuel storage for diesel more likely than not. All the farmers that i know have at least one tank that is mobile, cause it is easier to take the tank to the field rather than run the macherinary back to the house. Thay have already established that the town is rural, and the last episode establishes that there is farms around. St. John issue was that thier gennie ran off gasoline, which is less likely to be stored on farms and also gas breaks down faster in storage if i recall correctly. But even gas doesn't break down until about 6 months.

[8Bit_System]

That would still mean you have roughly 1900 liters of Diesel on the farm, taken the tanks are full. Having mobile tanks is a good thing, as transporting the stuff on foot would be impossible (about 1,6 tons).

Still, 1900 liters of Diesel would last for approximately 120 - 240 hours of the train running, depending on usage. After that, farm 1 would have run dry completely. How many farms are in the vicinity of the rails, and how many bullets can you afford to spend on farming Diesel?