[Spoilers] He caused EVERYTHING

[Red Panda]

Originally Posted by Christoaster

How the hell am I being inconsistent?

B/c your views aren't consistent with what's been observed.

Look, whoever you think should go to jail is to blame. Do you think that's Lee?

And you don't know if the meds were the pushing point. They are killers. The guy Lee is tasked with distracting while Lilly gets in position killed one of his own on a whim. He's obviously unstable. You can't say Lee's actions were the cause anymore than you could accurately predict an alternative future.

[Valyus]

What if Ben DIDN'T?! The bandits could have came in and killed everyone. Ben was dumb how he went about it, but in a way he was helping the group from getting overrun by the bandits.

[SonnyN18]

Basically, were all sons of bitches. What Lee did is good for the group but everyone is just the causer of bad events.
Ben- Totally lied to us and was out for a friend that was never real and didn't consult the group.
Lilly- Snapped because of all this shit were going through, and murdered ( in which i think) cold blood
I think the pink x represents that there package is here at the motor inn. Ben hid the package in the hole with OUR survival meds. Lee took the evidence that the traitor was among the group AND how was it there meds, we didn't exactly go to their base so we didnt steal shit. The bandits came to the hole and didnt see it there so they kept our people as hostages. Ben had an agreement with the bandits so it isnt really Lee's fault for what happens after. So yes Ben is the one at fault.

[shammack]

Originally Posted by Red Panda

And you don't know if the meds were the pushing point. They are killers. The guy Lee is tasked with distracting while Lilly gets in position killed one of his own on a whim. He's obviously unstable. You can't say Lee's actions were the cause anymore than you could accurately predict an alternative future.

I basically agree with you that ultimately the only ones who can really be said to be at fault are the bandits. But just for the sake of argument: Lee didn't know that taking the bag would cause the bandits to attack, but he did know about the bandits' deal with the St. Johns back when he killed them/left them to die. Granted, under the circumstances there weren't a lot of other options, but it was ultimately his actions that turned the bandits into a threat by cutting off their access to the stuff they were getting from the dairy.

I think Ben was trying to help by paying them off -- he handled it really badly, but it was a problem that somebody was going to have to deal with eventually no matter what (unless they'd left the motor inn first like Kenny wanted, I guess). Ben's an idiot, but I wouldn't consider him a traitor.

[CinnamonToast]

i'm so glad i didn't give ben an energy bar in episode 2 right now!

hershal said we would have to depend on the honesty of strangers, and he was right. honesty/trust is a two way street, and this kid needs to be ran over for what he caused in our group.

[cormoran]

It wasn't Bens fault the bandits attacked, It wasn't Lees fault either, no one in the group was at fault.

The blame lies solely on the bandits heads. They didn't have to coerce Ben into giving them the meds and they didn't have to attack because Lee took them. They had the choice to do the right thing both times, but they didn't.

[skepticalguy90]

Originally Posted by Red Panda

You two ever heard of infinite regression? You can keep going back in the chain of events, finding someone to blame.

And you two chose to blame the victim? How could Lee have possibly known the consequences of taking the bag?

Lee didn't kill anybody. Lee didn't make any covert deals. He tried to save lives by finding out what was happening with the medicine and you blame him for everything that happened? I just can't follow the logic.

If anybody is at fault, it's Ben. His actions invited this by helping the bandits for his naive belief that they had his friend and he could help. That's just a fact.

You can't blame anybody else for the consequences of that, especially victims, like Lee, except the bandits, who are ultimately responsible for this thanks to their criminal behavior.

Very good point, you could blame the attacks on the parents of the bandits because if they hadn't procreated, the bandits wouldn't exist, and so on and so forth..

[ElderBoss]

I think we can all agree to blame it on Robert Kirkman's dark, dark imagination. And maybe the bandits.

[magodesky]

Originally Posted by Christoaster

Heck someone said in this thread that stopping the Dairy Farm is what caused all of this, which I don't quite get, because what would they do? Just stay in the meat locker to die? Seriously, he did whatever he could to survive.

Well, my real point was simply to show how silly it is to go that far back to look for someone to blame. I'm not saying Lee shouldn't have done what he did. But the fact remains that he could have made different choices. He could have not dealt with the St. Johns at all. He could have backed out and left the farm at any time up until dinner. He could have kept his mouth shut and ate Mark. He could have ditched the farm as soon as he got out of the meat locker and left Katjaa and Duck to the St. Johns. Obviously, those may not be good choices. But they may have kept the bandits' deal with the St. Johns going. In which case, they probably wouldn't have come after the motel.

Of course, we wouldn't blame Lee for the bandit attack because there's no way he could have predicted everything that would happen. But likewise, there's no way Ben could have predicted that his deal with the bandits would lead to Duck getting bit, Lilly going crazy (or crazier?) and shooting Carley, or Katjaa committing suicide.

Originally Posted by Red Panda

That doesn't make any sense. Lee taking the meds wasn't the cause. The bandits being murderous thieves is the cause.

And you, or anybody else, can't say what they would have or wouldn't have done. All you can do is assume they would be pleased and not attack but you don't know that. They could have decided they want more supplies and attack anyway.

Like I said, the only cause was the bandits being amoral.

Granted, the bandits are ultimately responsible for their own actions. But saying that the bandits might have attacked anyway even if Lee hadn't taken the meds just seems silly. That was clearly the entire reason for the attack. They had made a deal for the supplies. They saw that the supplies weren't where they were supposed to be. They assumed that Ben had backed out of the deal. So they attacked. Otherwise, there would have been no reason for them to attack. Dead people can't pay after all. Amoral they may be, but we haven't seen any indication that they just go around killing people for no reason. People generally don't behave like that. Well, except for Lilly.

And in any case, I still wouldn't describe Ben as an "accomplice." You say he was working with them. That makes no sense. He was giving them supplies to prevent them from doing what they did. Saying they were working together is kind of like saying that someone being mugged is in cahoots with his mugger because he hands over his wallet instead of choosing to get shot in the face.

Originally Posted by Red Panda

Look, whoever you think should go to jail is to blame.

I don't understand why you keep bringing this up. It's not like there are any courts of law where you're going to prosecute someone in TWD. And even if there were, I don't think most people here are talking about legal responsibility. It's entirely possible to cause something bad to happen, whether intentionally or not, without ever committing an actual crime.

[Milosuperspesh]

i think it's down to the car if it was the bandits.

[Cooperal]

Originally Posted by Overwatch

Honestly, it wasn't Bens fault that the Inn got overrun.

Wrong, it was. The most stupid thing he did came before Lee set everything in motion by taking that bag. He didn't let the group know not to interfere because the deal was for their safety. Something more than worth mentioning even if nobody asks. He didn't give anyone a chance to prepare for an organised (possibly scheduled) bandit attack as a result of hiding the deal. He let Lillys paranoia escalate beyond anybodys control. And that was just the things he could've done to prevent the problems before the episode even began.

During the episode he at least had the chance to mention after the escape. Ben thought he was clear of suspicion until the RV ride. Had he come clean, Carley/Doug surely would've lived. Of course Ben would've come off worst but neither would he have been likely to see the bullet treatment if he had calmly come clean and explained himself. His popularity would've plunged, despite his best intentions surely.

His further, well-disscussed stupidity has been more than established over the course of the episode. So far he's a liability. He's helped with nothing but eating our food. But plenty of damage is done.

[Red Panda]

Originally Posted by magodesky

Granted, the bandits are ultimately responsible for their own actions. But saying that the bandits might have attacked anyway even if Lee hadn't taken the meds just seems silly. That was clearly the entire reason for the attack. They had made a deal for the supplies. They saw that the supplies weren't where they were supposed to be. They assumed that Ben had backed out of the deal. So they attacked. Otherwise, there would have been no reason for them to attack. Dead people can't pay after all.

I don't get how this makes sense to you. I don't get how you can blame the victim. It's just shameful.

I personally find it a repugnant position to take.

Even if you follow your sick, twisted logic, it just doesn't make sense. They have a deal with the group and make a side deal with Ben. Ben doesn't deliver so the logical thing is to attack the entire group?

No, it would be to press Ben. By attacking the group, not only do they end the deal with Ben but the bigger deal with the group. They also lose runners to go into the city to get supplies. Why ruin that?

They had a large group. They obviously seem like the drug using type, not only from their behavior, but what supplies they wanted, so it makes sense they would attack again anyway.

Originally Posted by magodesky

And in any case, I still wouldn't describe Ben as an "accomplice." You say he was working with them. That makes no sense. He was giving them supplies to prevent them from doing what they did. Saying they were working together is kind of like saying that someone being mugged is in cahoots with his mugger because he hands over his wallet instead of choosing to get shot in the face.

Like I said before, his role is complicated b/c he aided the criminals but was also a victim. But to be clear, he did it to save his friend (Travis?) who was freaking eaten in front of him in the beginning of ep 2. Believe him if you want.

Originally Posted by magodesky

And I don't understand why you keep bringing [jail] up.

It's just a tool to illustrate a point. I know there is no jail or court system. It's useful for teasing out what you really think is justice in this case. Not always, but for the most part laws reflect morals.

[Rock114]

Because of Ben I had to kill, what, 8 more people this episode? I swore I'd never kill anyone again after the St. John's Dairy, but Ben's deal caused these drug addicts to attack us. Sure I don't feel sorry for those bastards, and they probably had it coming, but I think the walkers have killed enough of us. Ben handled his side deal all freaking wrong, and pretty much got two large groups of people wiped out. Granted that one was full of drug addicted crazies, but in my eyes all the deaths in episode 3, every single one, is on his head.

[magodesky]

Originally Posted by Cooperal

Of course Ben would've come off worst but neither would he have been likely to see the bullet treatment if he had calmly come clean and explained himself.

I think you're giving Lilly way more credit than she deserves. Lilly was a psychopath on a witch hunt. She didn't hesitate to murder someone with no justification whatsoever. What makes you think she wouldn't kill someone who had actually confessed?

Originally Posted by Red Panda

I don't get how this makes sense to you. I don't get how you can blame the victim. It's just shameful.

I personally find it a repugnant position to take.

I would find it repugnant as well. So it's a good thing that's not my position. I agreed with you that the bandits are the ones to blame for their own actions.

But there's also no denying that Lee taking the supplies led directly to the attack. I'm not saying he was wrong to do so. It doesn't matter what his intentions were. Whether he realized what he was doing or not, Lee's actions caused the bandits to attack in a much more direct sense than one could say about what Ben did.

Originally Posted by Red Panda

Even if you follow your sick, twisted logic, it just doesn't make sense. They have a deal with the group and make a side deal with Ben. Ben doesn't deliver so the logical thing is to attack the entire group?

The bandits didn't have a deal with Lee's group. They just had a deal with Ben. I'm guessing they assumed Ben was dealing on the group's behalf. Or they just didn't care as long as they kept getting what they wanted. Either way, they're clearly not making fine distinctions as to who in the group was on Ben's side and who wasn't. What do you want? They're bandits. Bandits are like that.

Originally Posted by Red Panda

By attacking the group, not only do they end the deal with Ben but the bigger deal with the group. They also lose runners to go into the city to get supplies. Why ruin that?

Given the way things went down, we don't really get to see what they were planning to do had Lee, Lilly, and the walkers not shown up. It's likely they wouldn't have killed everyone, just take what they wanted and do enough damage to intimidate them into cooperating in the future. And if the group refused to deal with them, then they don't really lose anything by killing them. Plus they probably figure it sends a message to any other groups of survivors in the area that they aren't to be messed with.

Originally Posted by Red Panda

They had a large group. They obviously seem like the drug using type, not only from their behavior, but what supplies they wanted, so it makes sense they would attack again anyway.

How does being a large group and being interested in drugs translate into "they're going to attack no matter what?"

Originally Posted by Red Panda

But to be clear, he did it to save his friend (Travis?) who was freaking eaten in front of him in the beginning of ep 2. Believe him if you want.

He just said "a friend." I doubt he was referring to Travis since he saw Travis get eaten in Episode 2. Also, Lee had already met Travis, so if he meant Travis, he would have just said "Travis." It's likely he had more than one friend.

Originally Posted by Red Panda

Not always, but for the most part laws reflect morals.

That's highly debatable.

[Red Panda]

Originally Posted by magodesky

How does being a large group and being interested in drugs translate into "they're going to attack no matter what?"

We can agree to disagree, but I'll answer this question.

A large group needs a lot of supplies. Also, drug addicts need more drugs to get high. They build a tolerance after a while. So, with a lot of people to feed, and a drug habit, it makes sense they would want more food and drugs.

[TikiLouie]

I want to be angry at Ben, and at first I was when he first admitted that he was the thief.
But I have to keep reminding myself that he's still a teenager. He might not be as naive or need as much coddling as Clem or Duck but he's also not a seasoned adult who's had to make a lot of difficult choices.
When the stash was found outside and obviously meant for the bandits, I thought that the thief was actually doing them all a favor by keeping the bandits away.
I can somewhat understand Ben not admitting to it outside the RV. He might have held onto that childhood notion that if nobody fesses up, nobody will get in trouble... until someone died because of it.
And also, he's had nobody to lean on since he joined the group. It's always been Lee/Clem, Lee/CarleyorDoug, Kenny/Katjaa/Duck, Lily/Larry. Nobody to kind of guide him in his still-growing-up phase. Not a boy, not yet a man.
His future story should be interesting.

[ozzmann]

If I could I'd cut Ben into little pieces, weld him inside a 55 gallon oil drum filled with concrete and dump him in the ocean!