Episode 3 ruined everything

[falcon168]

The first time I'm not looking forward to new release at all. If it comes out, I'll play, if not, I'm not bothered. Well done TTG! episode 3 ruined everthing and also appeared everything about that fake choice making.

[HNKenshiro]

I feel you.

[SonnyN18]

Originally Posted by falcon168

The first time I'm not looking forward to new release at all. If it comes out, I'll play, if not, I'm not bothered. Well done TTG! episode 3 ruined everthing and also appeared everything about that fake choice making.

I'm tired of everyone complaining about Carley/Doug's death and the supposed lack of choices in the game.

Carley/Doug were most likely close to Lee, with the former even hinting at a romance. Lilly had been strained since day one, and Larry's death only served to make her more paranoid. It's fitting that she would snap and try to take control of something, because she had nothing left, and kill someone. I tried to stay neutral throughout episode 2 and decided against killing Larry and thought I had a good grasp of what was right and wrong. I made decisions that, while may not have been the best for survival, helped me keep my humanity intact. I had allies, especially in Carley, who I shared a mutual trust and bond with. Episode 3 throws all of that for a loop and Carley/Doug's death as well as Chuck's words of wisdom served as a lesson that Lee has to do whatever it takes to protect the ones he loves. I found myself in episode 3 making more pragmatic and sometimes harsh decisions for the sake of survival. Carley's death pushed me over the edge and made me decide that whoever would try to fuck with me would get left behind.

Now, ask yourselves, what other game makes a player go through an emotional journey like that? For what purpose would being a God-like character who can control every situation and save everybody he wants towards a happy ending serve? I am kind of pissed at the TV show for keeping Shane and Daryl as long as they did just because the characters were popular. Just about everybody who died in season 2 were arguably the least popular characters. At the end of Episode 3 of the game, I was left with people I had bad blood with or just flat out didn't trust. The safety is gone. This is the zombie apocalypse.

Lee foreshadowed somewhat the events and themes of episode 3 when reflecting on Hershel's farm with Kenny at the pharmacy: "You didn't have a choice. You think you do when you look back on it, but in a moment? When things are really out of control? You don't have any choice."

Especially in episode 3, we'll find that a lot of the time, the story will be driven by the plot, and that means things will be out of your control. People will die, but that doesn't mean you should take a fatalist approach to life. What's important is what you do with the situations put in front of you and the time you have with the people you're with. You will grow as a person, and in this case, things will definitely resonate with Clementine. Just because someone dies doesn't mean that everything you did with them was for nothing. This game IS about choice, but not control. In the zombie apocalypse, not everything will be driven by characters, and not everything will be fair, and it shouldn't be. Carley/Doug's death was tragic, but it was not written for pure shock value. You have to react to what happened. How mad are you? You spent three episodes building a relationship with these people and now that they're gone, what will you do? Are you willing to abandon Lilly? What does this mean for your decision-making in the future? When you find out that Ben was responsible, what do you plan to do with him? That's what matters.

My (Lee's) relationship with Carley changed me. This was someone I spent three episodes building a trust with, and who was a constant ally through all my troubles and supported me. Her death enraged me, but I wasn't mad at the game. I was mad at Lilly, I eventually got mad at Ben, but I was also mad at myself for not doing what it took to keep my loved ones safe. Don't tell me my decision to save her in episode 1 didn't matter. She was an ally who was killed senselessly and I would from that point forward would make sure it wouldn't happen again. I decided I would be honest about my past with everyone in the group. I decided not to hide anything from Omid and Christa because I felt that would make Carley, Clementine, and even old Hershel proud. THAT'S my choice.

If you want to look at it from a technical perspective, there's no conceivable way for the story to accommodate EVERY SINGLE permutation players want. In a story that spans five episodes, things will get harder to stay coherent and Telltale is doing a commendable job with providing a compelling narrative at the same time as providing players with as much choice as they can. If players were given a free roam of the plot, the story would fall apart eventually. Take Skyrim, for example. For the most part, a player has near complete control of how they want to handle a quest, at the cost of a compelling narrative. Mass Effect also understands the need for a coherent plot and even though it gives players choice, certain things WILL happen. Just because certain outcomes are inevitable does NOT mean there is an illusion of choice. The Walking Dead has done a better job, in my opinion, in making choice matter than Mass Effect or Dragon Age. I've played several scenes over again dozens of times and the amount of difference your choices make is staggering. In no way was this created lazily, so give the writers a break.

You have a choice, and although it may not matter in the long run, it matters NOW.

[falcon168]

I don't even care about anybody's life in the game by now. Lee won't die no matter what happens of course. Clem won't die even if you don't cut her hair or teach her use of guns. Kenny.....who cares about Kenny anyway.

I wonder why don't they designed it in this way that in episode 2 all companions died except Larry. You are forced to stick with Larry and a new joined horse and a monkey to carry on finishing the rest of the episodes. That would definitly save you guys a hell lot of money and makes more people to feel my situation right now.

[SaveCarley]

Why does everybody feel the need to externate his hate for the game? Don't buy it and stop blaming, cause nobody cares (mainly TTG)

[SonnyN18]

Originally Posted by falcon168

I don't even care about anybody's life in the game by now. Lee won't die no matter what happens of course. Clem won't die even if you don't cut her hair or teach her use of guns. Kenny.....who cares about Kenny anyway.

I wonder why don't they designed it in this way that in episode 2 all companions died except Larry. You are forced to stick with Larry and a new joined horse and a monkey to carry on finishing the rest of the episodes. That would definitly save you guys a hell lot of money and makes more people to feel my situation right now.

not really

[ProjectPIKA]

Originally Posted by sonnyn18

i'm tired of everyone complaining about carley/doug's death and the supposed lack of choices in the game.

Carley/doug were most likely close to lee, with the former even hinting at a romance. Lilly had been strained since day one, and larry's death only served to make her more paranoid. It's fitting that she would snap and try to take control of something, because she had nothing left, and kill someone. I tried to stay neutral throughout episode 2 and decided against killing larry and thought i had a good grasp of what was right and wrong. I made decisions that, while may not have been the best for survival, helped me keep my humanity intact. I had allies, especially in carley, who i shared a mutual trust and bond with. Episode 3 throws all of that for a loop and carley/doug's death as well as chuck's words of wisdom served as a lesson that lee has to do whatever it takes to protect the ones he loves. I found myself in episode 3 making more pragmatic and sometimes harsh decisions for the sake of survival. Carley's death pushed me over the edge and made me decide that whoever would try to fuck with me would get left behind.

Now, ask yourselves, what other game makes a player go through an emotional journey like that? For what purpose would being a god-like character who can control every situation and save everybody he wants towards a happy ending serve? I am kind of pissed at the tv show for keeping shane and daryl as long as they did just because the characters were popular. Just about everybody who died in season 2 were arguably the least popular characters. At the end of episode 3 of the game, i was left with people i had bad blood with or just flat out didn't trust. The safety is gone. This is the zombie apocalypse.

Lee foreshadowed somewhat the events and themes of episode 3 when reflecting on hershel's farm with kenny at the pharmacy: "you didn't have a choice. You think you do when you look back on it, but in a moment? When things are really out of control? You don't have any choice."

especially in episode 3, we'll find that a lot of the time, the story will be driven by the plot, and that means things will be out of your control. People will die, but that doesn't mean you should take a fatalist approach to life. What's important is what you do with the situations put in front of you and the time you have with the people you're with. You will grow as a person, and in this case, things will definitely resonate with clementine. Just because someone dies doesn't mean that everything you did with them was for nothing. This game is about choice, but not control. In the zombie apocalypse, not everything will be driven by characters, and not everything will be fair, and it shouldn't be. Carley/doug's death was tragic, but it was not written for pure shock value. You have to react to what happened. How mad are you? You spent three episodes building a relationship with these people and now that they're gone, what will you do? Are you willing to abandon lilly? What does this mean for your decision-making in the future? When you find out that ben was responsible, what do you plan to do with him? That's what matters.

My (lee's) relationship with carley changed me. This was someone i spent three episodes building a trust with, and who was a constant ally through all my troubles and supported me. Her death enraged me, but i wasn't mad at the game. I was mad at lilly, i eventually got mad at ben, but i was also mad at myself for not doing what it took to keep my loved ones safe. Don't tell me my decision to save her in episode 1 didn't matter. She was an ally who was killed senselessly and i would from that point forward would make sure it wouldn't happen again. I decided i would be honest about my past with everyone in the group. I decided not to hide anything from omid and christa because i felt that would make carley, clementine, and even old hershel proud. That's my choice.

If you want to look at it from a technical perspective, there's no conceivable way for the story to accommodate every single permutation players want. In a story that spans five episodes, things will get harder to stay coherent and telltale is doing a commendable job with providing a compelling narrative at the same time as providing players with as much choice as they can. If players were given a free roam of the plot, the story would fall apart eventually. Take skyrim, for example. For the most part, a player has near complete control of how they want to handle a quest, at the cost of a compelling narrative. Mass effect also understands the need for a coherent plot and even though it gives players choice, certain things will happen. Just because certain outcomes are inevitable does not mean there is an illusion of choice. The walking dead has done a better job, in my opinion, in making choice matter than mass effect or dragon age. I've played several scenes over again dozens of times and the amount of difference your choices make is staggering. In no way was this created lazily, so give the writers a break.

You have a choice, and although it may not matter in the long run, it matters now.

amen. Preach itttt

[Dead_Man_Walking]

I am open for the horse and monkey idea, though! TTG? Humor us? <3

[falcon168]

Originally Posted by SonnyN18

I'm tired of everyone complaining about Carley/Doug's death and the supposed lack of choices in the game.

Carley/Doug were most likely close to Lee, with the former even hinting at a romance. Lilly had been strained since day one, and Larry's death only served to make her more paranoid. It's fitting that she would snap and try to take .

Chuck was right. He said "no matter you what you do, that girl(clem) will end up the same" just as the rest of the crew, will all end up the same. Which was a hint from TTG, telling you again that choices DO NOT matter!

[cormoran]

It seems that when some people hear "your choices matter" they expect far too much, like a game that could begin with Lee riding in the back of a cop car and ending up with Lee fighting Cthulhu in space or Lee getting drunk with pirates at the bottom of the ocean or Lee in a triple threat wrestling match against Gandalf and Darth Vader for the World Heavyweight Title at Wrestlemania or Lee winning the Tour de France eleven times in a row with two balls, no drugs and Clem in a trailer on the back depending on their choices in the game.

The choices matter, but they don't have to matter throughout the entire game. Videogames haven't evolved far enough to allow for the millions of permutations some of you seem to want. In the end game devs have to set boundaries.

You want complete choice? pick up a DnD rulebook and start a pen and paper roleplay.

[big-augen]

Originally Posted by SonnyN18

I'm tired of everyone complaining about Carley/Doug's death and the supposed lack of choices in the game.

(...)

I love this episode. Lack of choices? I see it as loosing control. You/Lee cannot control or decide everything. Everything turns to shit. Now, Lilli is gone, Kenny is down... Lee tells Ben to step up, but it is Lee who has to step up now.

[martymcfly]

I think if players want infinite choices, they should stop playing The Walking Dead and go outside on a real adventure in the real world. If Telltale programmed every possible decision and outcome, the games would never release - and people already get grumpy when there are delays. Yes, ultimately it's a linear game - but the illusion of choice and influencing the story is absolutely fantastic.

[Kenneloth]

Originally Posted by martymcfly

I think if players want infinite choices, they should stop playing The Walking Dead and go outside on a real adventure in the real world. If Telltale programmed every possible decision and outcome, the games would never release - and people already get grumpy when there are delays. Yes, ultimately it's a linear game - but the illusion of choice and influencing the story is absolutely fantastic.

/agree

[Strayth]

but the illusion of choice and influencing the story is absolutely fantastic.

Illusion. Other games that say you can influence the story are not lying.

Geez look at Blade Runner the game...

[martymcfly]

Originally Posted by Strayth

Illusion. Other games that say you can influence the story are not lying.

Geez look at Blade Runner the game...

I reviewed Blade Runner: The Game for Adventure Classic Gaming a few years ago. Superb experience - but I don't get what your point is? The influence over Ray McCoy's decisions is still an illusion - most of the major player-specific plot divergences come right at the very end, which is a lot easier to do than in the middle of a game.

[skepticalguy90]

Honestly at the end of episode 3, what is the difference between anyone's save?

[martymcfly]

Originally Posted by skepticalguy90

Honestly at the end of episode 3, what is the difference between anyone's save?

The emotions you felt. A character that died - and meant something to me - might have meant something completely different to you, or even been a different character entirely. In my save, I feel like I have protected Clementine every step of the way - did you? If these small nuances aren't enough for you then of course that's fine, but I think it's a shame because they are what make The Walking Dead - at least for me personally - so special.

[cormoran]

Originally Posted by martymcfly

I reviewed Blade Runner: The Game for Adventure Classic Gaming a few years ago. Superb experience - but I don't get what your point is? The influence over Ray McCoy's decisions is still an illusion - most of the major player-specific plot divergences come right at the very end, which is a lot easier to do than in the middle of a game.

To add to that, the smaller differences throughout blade runner were randomly generated at the start of each game, which is actually the game affecting your choices rather than your choices affecting the game.

[skepticalguy90]

The problem for me is they make little difference the game. Carley's/ Doug's death felt like an easy way to avoid the extra hassle to me

[Karmonger]

Totally agree with topicstarter. Lack of choices? Its not about that. This game has plenty of choices. BUT decisions are not worth anything. They DONT MATTER. No matter if u choose to save Duck or Shawn, they both die and u cant do anything about it. No matter if u choose to save Doug or Carley, they both die. No matter if u help Kenny or Lilly when Larry is about to die, he WILL die anyway and your relationship with Lilly wont change anyhow - she still will go crazy and kill either Doug or Carley and u cant do anything about her staying in the group. Should I continue? I can hardly think of decisions that really matter at this game. Besides dialogue options that makes you either asshole or lifesaver. I dont argue that this game is great in terms of storytelling and drama but decisions that you make throughout it just... I just dont feel that they matter. Oh well maybe I will change my opinion after episodes 4 and 5 but that is how I see that after episode 3.