Episode 3 ruined everything

[Xebioz]

Originally Posted by HelloCthulhu

First of all, Wade, Just because someone has a different opinion from you, it does not give you the right to berate and belittle them. You lost the debate as soon as you did.

Second, I personally disagree with almost 95% of your entire post. I, however, will not stoop to calling you names for it.

I agree with you and that he was way out of line, but I just presented a meaningful choice a bit up on the page. Do you think something like that would be impossible to program? If so I just think that you must be a fanboy as you can't criticize TT at all. I'm not saying that you have to change major things for it to be different...

[HelloCthulhu]

Originally Posted by Xebioz

I agree with you and that he was way out of line, but I just presented a meaningful choice a bit up on the page. Do you think something like that would be impossible to program? If so I just think that you must a fanboy as you can't criticize TT at all. I'm not saying that you have to change major things for it to be different...

I think given the format for the game, it would be near impossible to accommodate all the choices over the term of 5 episodes for the reason I gave before: the butterfly effect. You make 1 choice that changes things per episode, hypothetically.

• That means that in episode 1 they need to program an alternate timeline for everything in the game from that point on in episode 1. Not that bad so far, but still a lot of programming work.
• Then in episode 2, they need to create 2 completely different paths based on your choice in episode 1 and work it into a choice in episode 2. Starting to get more muddy.
• Then in episode 3 they now need to make 4 different paths for the game.

Do you see how it gets to be impossible to meet their deadlines given only 1 choice per episode? Now if you are talking about cosmetic changes, like the hoodie, They did give you one of those in this episode: her hair. If you are talking about more than cosmetic changes, you are getting much more into complicated territories.

[Xebioz]

Originally Posted by HelloCthulhu

I think given the format for the game, it would be near impossible to accommodate all the choices over the term of 5 episodes for the reason I gave before: the butterfly effect. You make 1 choice that changes things per episode, hypothetically.

• That means that in episode 1 they need to program an alternate timeline for everything in the game from that point on in episode 1. Not that bad so far, but still a lot of programming work.
• Then in episode 2, they need to create 2 completely different paths based on your choice in episode 1 and work it into a choice in episode 2. Starting to get more muddy.
• Then in episode 3 they now need to make 4 different paths for the game.

Do you see how it gets to be impossible to meet their deadlines given only 1 choice per episode? Now if you are talking about cosmetic changes, like the hoodie, They did give you one of those in this episode: her hair. If you are talking about more than cosmetic changes, you are getting much more into complicated territories.

I would understand the difficulty as long as these decisions took a ton of work each, but the stuff I described is easy to interchange into the story. The fact that you think that would be diffucult relative to the stuff they already did with the doug/carley differences makes your argument silly at best.

[HelloCthulhu]

Originally Posted by Xebioz

I would understand the difficulty as long as these decisions took a ton of work each, but the stuff I described is easy to interchange into the story. The fact that you think that would be diffucult relative to the stuff they already did with the doug/carley differences makes your argument silly at best.

But like other pointed out, the doug/carley differences really are cosmetic at best. They really don't do that much differently.

[Xebioz]

Originally Posted by HelloCthulhu

But like other pointed out, the doug/carley differences really are cosmetic at best. They really don't do that much differently.

Fight scene changes (both st. John's and bandit fight.), dialogue changes, doug's alarm system changes things in both episode 2 and 3. They are killed in different ways, etc etc. This is enough of a difference for me to say that the choice matters, although it matters much less now as only three characters knew him/her and they weren't the ones who knew them the best.

[kirby18]

I can not disagree more. I am pumped for episode 4 maybe not as much as i was for episide 3, but the only thing i agree with you slightly is that your choices really dont make a difference, whoch im ok with bc its still a great storyline.

[Christoaster]

Originally Posted by SonnyN18

I'm tired of everyone complaining about Carley/Doug's death and the supposed lack of choices in the game.

Carley/Doug were most likely close to Lee, with the former even hinting at a romance. Lilly had been strained since day one, and Larry's death only served to make her more paranoid. It's fitting that she would snap and try to take control of something, because she had nothing left, and kill someone. I tried to stay neutral throughout episode 2 and decided against killing Larry and thought I had a good grasp of what was right and wrong. I made decisions that, while may not have been the best for survival, helped me keep my humanity intact. I had allies, especially in Carley, who I shared a mutual trust and bond with. Episode 3 throws all of that for a loop and Carley/Doug's death as well as Chuck's words of wisdom served as a lesson that Lee has to do whatever it takes to protect the ones he loves. I found myself in episode 3 making more pragmatic and sometimes harsh decisions for the sake of survival. Carley's death pushed me over the edge and made me decide that whoever would try to fuck with me would get left behind.

Now, ask yourselves, what other game makes a player go through an emotional journey like that? For what purpose would being a God-like character who can control every situation and save everybody he wants towards a happy ending serve? I am kind of pissed at the TV show for keeping Shane and Daryl as long as they did just because the characters were popular. Just about everybody who died in season 2 were arguably the least popular characters. At the end of Episode 3 of the game, I was left with people I had bad blood with or just flat out didn't trust. The safety is gone. This is the zombie apocalypse.

Lee foreshadowed somewhat the events and themes of episode 3 when reflecting on Hershel's farm with Kenny at the pharmacy: "You didn't have a choice. You think you do when you look back on it, but in a moment? When things are really out of control? You don't have any choice."

Especially in episode 3, we'll find that a lot of the time, the story will be driven by the plot, and that means things will be out of your control. People will die, but that doesn't mean you should take a fatalist approach to life. What's important is what you do with the situations put in front of you and the time you have with the people you're with. You will grow as a person, and in this case, things will definitely resonate with Clementine. Just because someone dies doesn't mean that everything you did with them was for nothing. This game IS about choice, but not control. In the zombie apocalypse, not everything will be driven by characters, and not everything will be fair, and it shouldn't be. Carley/Doug's death was tragic, but it was not written for pure shock value. You have to react to what happened. How mad are you? You spent three episodes building a relationship with these people and now that they're gone, what will you do? Are you willing to abandon Lilly? What does this mean for your decision-making in the future? When you find out that Ben was responsible, what do you plan to do with him? That's what matters.

My (Lee's) relationship with Carley changed me. This was someone I spent three episodes building a trust with, and who was a constant ally through all my troubles and supported me. Her death enraged me, but I wasn't mad at the game. I was mad at Lilly, I eventually got mad at Ben, but I was also mad at myself for not doing what it took to keep my loved ones safe. Don't tell me my decision to save her in episode 1 didn't matter. She was an ally who was killed senselessly and I would from that point forward would make sure it wouldn't happen again. I decided I would be honest about my past with everyone in the group. I decided not to hide anything from Omid and Christa because I felt that would make Carley, Clementine, and even old Hershel proud. THAT'S my choice.

If you want to look at it from a technical perspective, there's no conceivable way for the story to accommodate EVERY SINGLE permutation players want. In a story that spans five episodes, things will get harder to stay coherent and Telltale is doing a commendable job with providing a compelling narrative at the same time as providing players with as much choice as they can. If players were given a free roam of the plot, the story would fall apart eventually. Take Skyrim, for example. For the most part, a player has near complete control of how they want to handle a quest, at the cost of a compelling narrative. Mass Effect also understands the need for a coherent plot and even though it gives players choice, certain things WILL happen. Just because certain outcomes are inevitable does NOT mean there is an illusion of choice. The Walking Dead has done a better job, in my opinion, in making choice matter than Mass Effect or Dragon Age. I've played several scenes over again dozens of times and the amount of difference your choices make is staggering. In no way was this created lazily, so give the writers a break.

You have a choice, and although it may not matter in the long run, it matters NOW.

Excellent points! I agree with you and I'm tired of people fucking complaining about the choices not mattering. People don't see how the choices really matters.

You defended TellTale without coming off as a fanboy sucking their dick, haha.

Good job.

[Xebioz]

Originally Posted by Christoaster

Excellent points! I agree with you and I'm tired of people fucking complaining about the choices not mattering. People don't see how the choices really matters.

You defended TellTale without coming off as a fanboy sucking their dick, haha.

Good job.

Then of course you can tell me three meaningful differences that can be found by the end of episode 3 right? I can't.

[FictionRaider007]

I agree with you. Most Telltale games of this make try to give you the best narrative and plot over complete godly control over who lives and dies.

I'll admit that I was a bit annoyed when Carley/Doug died, but, I predicted they'd die anyway as soon as they announced they'd be making a sequel - I thought "There's no way they're going to keep a determinant character over two games."

Just because of this death everyone seems to be making a big deal out of it but it's the same as real life - no matter what you can't save everyone.

I feel it was very clever. It makes any bond with Lilly turn sour and you lose one of the most trustworthy characters. Your left Kenny and ben who aren't excatly reliable in a tough spot and a bunch of new characters that you don't know if they deserve your trust yet.

Basically it leaves you in a terrible state. It IS a shame you lose some of the better characters, but in the end it might pay off.

[HelloCthulhu]

Originally Posted by Xebioz

Then of course you can tell me three meaningful differences that can be found by the end of episode 3 right? I can't.

Sure can. How about the choice to tell everyone about your past or not? Or how about the decision of whether you choose to fight kenny or talk him down? Or how about the choice of whether to let kenny kill his son or you do it? Also, how you treated kenny in this episode does a lot to repair your relationship with him if you chose to not side with him in episode 2. That isn't even counting the woman in the beginning, that if you let her suffer lets you get more time to gather supplies.

[Xebioz]

Originally Posted by FictionRaider007

I agree with you. Most Telltale games of this make try to give you the best narrative and plot over complete godly control over who lives and dies.

I'll admit that I was a bit annoyed when Carley/Doug died, but, I predicted they'd die anyway as soon as they announced they'd be making a sequel - I thought "There's no way they're going to keep a determinant character over two games."

Just because of this death everyone seems to be making a big deal out of it but it's the same as real life - no matter what you can't save everyone.

I feel it was very clever. It makes any bond with Lilly turn sour and you lose one of the most trustworthy characters. Your left Kenny and ben who aren't excatly reliable in a tough spot and a bunch of new characters that you don't know if they deserve your trust yet.

Basically it leaves you in a terrible state. It IS a shame you lose some of the better characters, but in the end it might pay off.

My points have never included that this had a bad story only that by the end of episode three you have pretty much rebooted the choice making as it seems little before this point will make it past this marker.

[Xebioz]

Originally Posted by HelloCthulhu

Sure can. How about the choice to tell everyone about your past or not? Or how about the decision of whether you choose to fight kenny or talk him down? Or how about the choice of whether to let kenny kill his son or you do it? Also, how you treated kenny in this episode does a lot to repair your relationship with him if you chose to not side with him in episode 2.

Give me one indication of how this changes anything. I was a total douche on one playthrough and a nice guy an another and still got the exact same replies from Kenny, and choices should change that no? And that you told people about the past hasn't really impacted anything beyond that road showdown. Personally I see the only real changes by the end of episode three being clems hoodie and hair which isn't that groundbreaking

[HelloCthulhu]

Originally Posted by Xebioz

Give me one indication of how this changes anything. I was a total douche on one playthrough and a nice guy an another and still got the exact same replies from Kenny, and choices should change that no? And that you told people about the past hasn't really impacted anything beyond that road showdown. Personally I see the only real changes by the end of episode three being clems hoodie and hair which isn't that groundbreaking

I got different reactions...Maybe it was your choices.

[Xebioz]

Originally Posted by HelloCthulhu

I got different reactions...Maybe it was your choices.

I mean by the end of ep. 3. During the episodes it has changed his responses, but in the end his feelings towards lee were exactly the same.

[LokiHavok]

Then you prolly sided against him one too many times. In my game Kenny was depressed of course but harbourned no ill will towards Lee, toher than what is normally expected after losing one's family.

[GamingDragon316]

Epiosde 3 Choices do matter because they reflect on who lives and dies

[Xebioz]

Originally Posted by GamingDragon316

Epiosde 3 Choices do matter because they reflect on who lives and dies

I give up. If you want to hail thos game as perfect then go on ahead, but you aren't really giving real feedback. I love this game, but I see room for improvement.

[LokiHavok]

Have you ever played an adventure game before TWD Xeboiz?

[Xebioz]

Originally Posted by LokiHavok

Have you ever played an adventure game before TWD Xeboiz?

Plenty, but the one closest to this would probably be blade runner. This game has it as a main feature to be changed by decisions made however which makes it less like a traditional adventure game.

A few examples of adv. Games would be:
Monkey island (series)
Day of the living tentacle
Blade runner
Phantasmogoria (1and2 although 2sucks)
Etc.

[Christoaster]

Originally Posted by martymcfly

The emotions you felt. A character that died - and meant something to me - might have meant something completely different to you, or even been a different character entirely. In my save, I feel like I have protected Clementine every step of the way - did you? If these small nuances aren't enough for you then of course that's fine, but I think it's a shame because they are what make The Walking Dead - at least for me personally - so special.

I agree. I made three different save slots and I thought it was really cool the different things that happened.

-Fighting Kenny/Talking it out with him

-Shooting Duck yourself/Letting Kenny shoot him

-Doug dies/Carly dies (you feel different about each death)

-Multiple ways to raise Clementine. (Morals/Whatever for survival/etc)

-Multiple ways to make your Lee

-Siding with Kenny/Lilly

-Telling the group about your secret/ not telling anyone/only telling selected people

-& much more

I think I'm the only one who appreciates these different choices and changes, since I see people bitch about the choices not mattering. I thought it was really cool the different things that play out which make this game that much more special.