Limited Choices discussion (merged threads)

[Funatick]

Originally Posted by ShadowFlux

*scratches head* How did Loki's comment get quoted with my name there? haha

sry man I was just lazy so copied

[malcom155]

@shadowflux: i'll repeat myself again... I don't want an open world, i have skyrim for that, i don't want an RPG, i will have baldur's gate redux for that and i already have the witcher 2, i want an adventure game where my choices tailor the story.
I have nothing to say about characters death, at last as long as it suits the story.

@deadfan: i remember the old dragon's lair ^^ (the first one of course...)
I agree with you, in fact all decisions are impactless now (at last until we see the end but i don't expect better than that). Their is no good or bad answer, good or bad choices, the STORY never change (and yes, i repeat again, the story, not events, not diaogues). I wasn't expecting a second path in the game (like the witcher 2) but at last, a change in the cast (Carley/Doug) changing a little bit the rest.
But no...

You have an impact in the game same as you would on the comic: nothing...
You can play the game without answering anything to anyone. What is TWD ? An adventure game or an comic with little interaction ?

[Funatick]

Originally Posted by malcom155

You can play the game without answering anything to anyone. What is TWD ? An adventure game or an comic with little interaction ?

Its hybrid weak adventure overaimed at story

[Freeze]

Originally Posted by Funatick

Yeah, but they mostly kicked own balls with advert choices matter, because from their point of view you can advert every game in this way...

That's true to an extent.

[thestalkinghead]

i believe episode 3 has proven that your choices don't matter, there has not been one choice that has changed the story in any way, you might as well just choose randomly, nothing you say or do has any affect even what you say to Clementine i am 99% sure has no affect, now the problem with going forward is that every time i get a "choice" i wont really care about what i choose because it doesn't change anything anyway.

i might as well be playing a normal point and click adventure game, and if i judge it by that criteria it has a great story but very poor puzzles

[deadfan]

In reading the earlier responses I do applaud TellTale for allowing for these subtle behavior differences in the dialogue, as it really helps shape my perception of the story on the outcome. My frustration remains however is that it's thinly veiled behind a storyline that will not change materially. Still there's good things in this mechanic and I hope TellTale takes this feedback to enhance it on further episodes.

[8Bit_System]

The biggest problem about choices in video games is pretty easily shown with a little math.

In episode 1 and 2:
Say there were 10 choices with 2 possible outcomes(PO) that had a full game impact (i.e. safe Carley/Doug), 4 choices with 3 possible outcomes and 2 choices with even 4 possible outcomes just so we make sure pretty much everyone has a total unique experience.

Telltale would now already have to deal with 1.024 impact choices just from 2 PO choices (10^2).

Now come the 3 PO choices and these already have a real impact. They will rise the possible outcomes to 82.944, and adding the 4 PO choices will give Telltale the final number of 1.327.104 possible outcomes and game scenes to deal with, while still staying on track to keep the story together.

Even keeping it really civil, say we choose 4 choices with 2 PO and 2 with 3 PO, we still end up with 144 outcomes, game scenes, conversations and what not.

For now, this is an impossible task as most people should be able to understand.

I think Telltale closely watches what most players do and tailors the story around these choices, and that is how their statement should be understood.

[CrazyGamerzPC]

people realize there is literally no choice in the game besides seeing Carley or Doug live an extra 6 months, or seeing Clem wearing a hoodie or not. This game was advertised pretty much as a choice type of game, NOT an interactive movie/adventure. If it was advertised as an interactive movie/adventure I would be perfectly fine with it.

To sum it up, No matter what you do, no matter how you treat ANY character in this game, when it comes for them to make an important decision for you or the group , they only have 1 choice.

Odds are if you were a 100% dick to Kenny he will still let you ride on his boat if Kenny even makes it that far and if they even make it to the boat.

Hopefully Season 2 TTG will have more of a budget, and there will be more choice to the game.

Yes, SURE, the changed dialogue is awesome, but still, its only a little bit, and NONE of those changed dialogue parts actually changed anything in the story besides convincing Clem to take the supplies and then she wears a hoodie.

Alright, yes, "Welcome to the Walking Dead, where people often die!" But this isn't the issue, TTG is the issue when your choices don't mean shit!

[malcom155]

Again, i agree with you deadfan, nothing more to say, i would just add :the voice acting is really good.

@thestalkinghead: The second problem is the replayability. Now it's close to zero...

@8bit system: Stop exagerating please... Nobody ask for such thing ^^!
I (and other i suppose) don't ask for such numerous outcome, look at my precedent post: i just ask to decide ONE time who live and who die and see consequences and outcomes until the end. None choice impact anything in the STORY. What we see in Playing Dead ? What we see when we launch the game ?

Story will be tailored by our choice.

So are we asking for the impossible ? Tellatale made the choice to say that but i can't see it anywhere in the game. What choice change anything ? (beside clem hoodie, which is just a graphical change) So our feedback is unjustified ?

[Funatick]

Originally Posted by 8Bit_System

The biggest problem about choices in video games is pretty easily shown with a little math.

In episode 1 and 2:
Say there were 10 choices with 2 possible outcomes(PO) that had a full game impact (i.e. safe Carley/Doug), 4 choices with 3 possible outcomes and 2 choices with even 4 possible outcomes just so we make sure pretty much everyone has a total unique experience.

Telltale would now already have to deal with 1.024 impact choices just from 2 PO choices (10^2).

Now come the 3 PO choices and these already have a real impact. They will rise the possible outcomes to 82.944, and adding the 4 PO choices will give Telltale the final number of 1.327.104 possible outcomes and game scenes to deal with, while still staying on track to keep the story together.

Even keeping it really civil, say we choose 4 choices with 2 PO and 2 with 3 PO, we still end up with 144 outcomes, game scenes, conversations and what not.

For now, this is an impossible task as most people should be able to understand.

I think Telltale closely watches what most players do and tailors the story around these choices, and that is how their statement should be understood.

Omg I love this extremist... You make it sounds like middle way doesnt exist.

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by 8Bit_System

The biggest problem about choices in video games is pretty easily shown with a little math.

In episode 1 and 2:
Say there were 10 choices with 2 possible outcomes(PO) that had a full game impact (i.e. safe Carley/Doug), 4 choices with 3 possible outcomes and 2 choices with even 4 possible outcomes just so we make sure pretty much everyone has a total unique experience.

Telltale would now already have to deal with 1.024 impact choices just from 2 PO choices (10^2).

Now come the 3 PO choices and these already have a real impact. They will rise the possible outcomes to 82.944, and adding the 4 PO choices will give Telltale the final number of 1.327.104 possible outcomes and game scenes to deal with, while still staying on track to keep the story together.

Even keeping it really civil, say we choose 4 choices with 2 PO and 2 with 3 PO, we still end up with 144 outcomes, game scenes, conversations and what not.

For now, this is an impossible task as most people should be able to understand.

I think Telltale closely watches what most players do and tailors the story around these choices, and that is how their statement should be understood.

its not an impossible task and not every choice will affect every other choice, and obviously there will be some things that they would always make us do, but what would have been so hard about giving doug or carley their own mission and making it so they have there own death not just identical copies. the fact is telltale make the world that Lee is in so they can easily give us choices that avoid interacting with other choices we could make.

and even if that means its is similar to making 3-4 games, thats fine because i have seen adventure games with way more scenes way more characters and not a bigger budget, why cant i have a choice of going north or south and then from that point have a very different story to the other choice, they could still meet up again but as long as there were some lasting affects of the choices you make it would make the choices matter.

[Rodia]

Originally Posted by 8Bit_System

The biggest problem about choices in video games is pretty easily shown with a little math.

In episode 1 and 2:
Say there were 10 choices with 2 possible outcomes(PO) that had a full game impact (i.e. safe Carley/Doug), 4 choices with 3 possible outcomes and 2 choices with even 4 possible outcomes just so we make sure pretty much everyone has a total unique experience.

Telltale would now already have to deal with 1.024 impact choices just from 2 PO choices (10^2).

Now come the 3 PO choices and these already have a real impact. They will rise the possible outcomes to 82.944, and adding the 4 PO choices will give Telltale the final number of 1.327.104 possible outcomes and game scenes to deal with, while still staying on track to keep the story together.

Even keeping it really civil, say we choose 4 choices with 2 PO and 2 with 3 PO, we still end up with 144 outcomes, game scenes, conversations and what not.

For now, this is an impossible task as most people should be able to understand.

I think Telltale closely watches what most players do and tailors the story around these choices, and that is how their statement should be understood.

QFT

Seriously, you're spot on, man. It's too fantastical for us to ask for a story with so many variables. I agree, it sucks to look past the illusion of freedom, but it just can't happen.

[8Bit_System]

Originally Posted by malcom155

@8bit system: Stop exagerating please... Nobody ask for such thing ^^!
I (and other i suppose) don't ask for such numerous outcome, look at my precedent post: i just ask to decide ONE time who live and who die and see consequences and outcomes until the end. None choice impact anything in the STORY. What we see in Playing Dead ? What we see when we launch the game ?

Story will be tailored by our choice.

So are we asking for the impossible ? Tellatale made the choice to say that but i can't see it anywhere in the game. What choice change anything ? (beside clem hoodie, which is just a graphical change) So our feedback is unjustified ?

I'm not so sure about that. Telltale do the little extras for your choices, that definitely alter the storyline, not the global story, but the personal relations. Something The Walking Dead was always about.

Also, I am pretty sure that Telltale uses the recorded choices not to look at them and compare their boners on who's idea was best, but to "read" the players and react accordingly in future episodes. So by my definition, they tailor the story by our choice.

Originally Posted by Funatick

Omg I love this extremist... You make it sounds like middle way doesnt exist.

It's not extremist in the least bit. I was only giving numbers and I bet there are quite a few people out there that are not aware how fast numbers sum up, reading some of the posts on this forum.

As you can see, the civil way is the least a lot of guys are asking for... still a huge amount of work, if at all possible.

In my oppinion Telltale delivers very well. Of course I would wish for some more freedom here and there, but I also knew what to expect.

[malcom155]

@8Bit System and Rodia: So if i understand correctly we are asking too much ^^?
But in this case why they said we can impact the story with our choice ? Now we see the reality and our feedback are asking why. And Tellatalle can't take our stats for tailoring the game now, the last episode in already in production so this argument is invalid...

So, before it was the "welcome in TWD world, everyone die", now we have a "don't ask for the impossible". I don't ask for the impossible, i ask for what i was advertised multiple times... Nothing more but also nothing less.
Thanks for reading

Edit: i may ask a lot but can we have an advice by a team member of Tellatale ? Just to know what they mean by "tailored by the players choices"and what to expect now.

[8Bit_System]

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

its not an impossible task and not every choice will affect every other choice, and obviously there will be some things that they would always make us do, but what would have been so hard about giving doug or carley their own mission and making it so they have there own death not just identical copies. the fact is telltale make the world that Lee is in so they can easily give us choices that avoid interacting with other choices we could make.

Well, in my example the choices DO affect each other, as that is what many people cried for.

Choosing A will take you on a different path then choosing B, both scenes will now have totally independent new choices.

I totally agree with you on Doug's and Carley's death scenes and probably to a lot more of criticism that is around on these forums, but that was not the point of my post, I just explained something many guys around don't seem to get.

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

and even if that means its is similar to making 3-4 games, thats fine because i have seen adventure games with way more scenes way more characters and not a bigger budget, why cant i have a choice of going north or south and then from that point have a very different story to the other choice, they could still meet up again but as long as there were some lasting affects of the choices you make it would make the choices matter.

More scenes, more characters, yes. On the other hand there are very few with better, or even equally good storytelling around.

How many adventure (or in fact any) games would you come up with that deliver the "north/south" choice? I can't really think of any right now.

[Funatick]

Originally Posted by 8Bit_System

I'm not so sure about that. Telltale do the little extras for your choices, that definitely alter the storyline, not the global story, but the personal relations. Something The Walking Dead was always about.

Also, I am pretty sure that Telltale uses the recorded choices not to look at them and compare their boners on who's idea was best, but to "read" the players and react accordingly in future episodes. So by my definition, they tailor the story by our choice.


It's not extremist in the least bit. I was only giving numbers and I bet there are quite a few people out there that are not aware how fast numbers sum up, reading some of the posts on this forum.

As you can see, the civil way is the least a lot of guys are asking for... still a huge amount of work, if at all possible.

In my oppinion Telltale delivers very well. Of course I would wish for some more freedom here and there, but I also knew what to expect.

I know your number was right if you wanna make every choice impacting story but its probably too much. Still there are way to keep it nonlinear but ofcourse it will need more work invest in it... At least 2 storyline per ep would be great but it also have to been think out before start.

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by 8Bit_System

How many adventure (or in fact any) games would you come up with that deliver the "north/south" choice? I can't really think of any right now.

well that depends, but does it matter?, i didn't know a game had to be a copy of another game else it couldn't be done

[8Bit_System]

Originally Posted by malcom155

@8Bit System and Rodia: So if i understand correctly we are asking too much ^^?
But in this case why they said we can impact the story with our choice ? Now we see the reality and our feedback are asking why. And Tellatalle can't take our stats for tailoring the game now, the last episode in already in production so this argument is invalid...

They can use the stats, in production does not mean finished. If it was finished you would be playing it right now.

Also, it was never intended to tell you or anyone off, or telling you that you are wrong about every complaint. It is JUST a post to show some people why certain things are not possible, and maybe, just maybe someone will alter his views slightly, and if not... so what?!

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

well that depends, but does it matter?, i didn't know a game had to be a copy of another game else it couldn't be done

[Funatick]

Originally Posted by 8Bit_System

How many adventure (or in fact any) games would you come up with that deliver the "north/south" choice? I can't really think of any right now.

If we dont talk about sandbox and freedom games. Original war just come in my mind...

[Sandmole]

Originally Posted by 8Bit_System

The biggest problem about choices in video games is pretty easily shown with a little math.

In episode 1 and 2:
Say there were 10 choices with 2 possible outcomes(PO) that had a full game impact (i.e. safe Carley/Doug), 4 choices with 3 possible outcomes and 2 choices with even 4 possible outcomes just so we make sure pretty much everyone has a total unique experience.

Telltale would now already have to deal with 1.024 impact choices just from 2 PO choices (10^2).

Now come the 3 PO choices and these already have a real impact. They will rise the possible outcomes to 82.944, and adding the 4 PO choices will give Telltale the final number of 1.327.104 possible outcomes and game scenes to deal with, while still staying on track to keep the story together.

Even keeping it really civil, say we choose 4 choices with 2 PO and 2 with 3 PO, we still end up with 144 outcomes, game scenes, conversations and what not.

For now, this is an impossible task as most people should be able to understand.

I think Telltale closely watches what most players do and tailors the story around these choices, and that is how their statement should be understood.

You'd be right if these consequences rippled throughout the whole game, but that's not what people are disappointed by.

Here's an example of something that wouldn't require a lot of change, but would add that extra touch that's currently missing. At the beginning of episode 2, you're faced with the decision to cut off the foot of the band director, David. If you don't, Travis, the other student, freaks out and winds up getting shot. He dies on the operating table, so to speak, and serves as a lesson to the group about the reality of infection.

If you do save David, Travis is rather clumsily dispatched from a writing perspective by inexplicably tripping and being devoured. This immediately synchronizes the outcomes of your choice, creating a symmetrical gameplay experience that's easier to write, but less meaningful to the players.

A nice touch that probably wouldn't have added a ton to development time or cost would have been to have Travis survive if you cut David free, and join you on the trip to the farm with Ben. At that point, he would join you and Mark as you clear off the zombies from the fence, but is killed by the first volley of arrows from the bandits. He then becomes one of the zombies chasing you during the tractor escape scene.

In this scenario, there doesn't have to much more in the way of dialogue added to the game, and though there's a bit more character modeling, the asymmetry of experience does add quite a bit of variety to my playthrough compared with someone else. And there's no fundamental change in the story.

TTG does this in minor ways throughout the game, but usually the effects of a decision are immediately played out and then synchronized within the same scene. Many of us would like to see a bit more. You want us to wind up with the same end state for a particular decision? Okay, but let our choices dictate a more varied route to arrive there. Right now, there just aren't enough routes.