F*** Kenny

[DreadMagus]

Knowing your role?

There are roles in a ZA?

[Xarne]

Originally Posted by DreadMagus

Knowing your role?

There are roles in a ZA?

Exactly. If you dont know that phrase or want to twist it into some sexist, chauvinist remark, then there's no point in explanation as it would just add fuel to the fire.

[DreadMagus]

I think someone's twisting, and it ain't me.

[DreadMagus]

It's occurred to me that you may not understand what I'm saying, I'm not expressing it effectively enough, or you're applying it the wrong way.

So I'll try to simplify.

My view is that in a Zombie Apocalypse - you're either part of the solution, or you're dead weight to be cast off.

Anyone who doesn't pull their weight is a liability.

Kids.

The Sick.

The Crippled.

Liabilities.

You got hands, you work - no freeloaders.

This isn't about whether you're a sexist or not; it's about not limiting your division of labor.

That's all.

[Xarne]

I didnt twist anything; the scenarios were perfect examples of my point; no explanation necessary.

[DreadMagus]

Originally Posted by Xarne

I didnt twist anything; the scenarios were perfect examples of my point; no explanation necessary.

I was being sarcastic. Feel free to refer to my clarification post.

[YamiRaziel]

Originally Posted by DreadMagus

It's a ZA. I don't care what a person's sexual opinion is... you got two hands? You can do anything that requires two hands.

Ain't no time for sexism, racism, religionism, or any other ism word I can make up to state my point in a ZA.

As Chuck the Killer Hobo would say... You're either alive, or you're not.

No other monikers than that. And survival is the only agenda....

Man, I wasn't being sexist. I was just pointing out something that's obvious.. at least to me.
Back in the past, it was always man that did the hunting while women took care of their homes. Biologically we've developed to be stronger and bigger. This is not sexism, it's just facts. I'm not saying women are damsels, that they can't be tough, strong or anything. Don't forget that I'm one of the few Lilly supporters here, so I appreciate tough survival type female characters.
Still a man has a bigger chance of fighting off another man or a walker than a woman in pure fist to fist/teeth fight.
Plus I am a man so my instinct is to protect women, not endanger them.
If I was in a ZA, if I was Lee, I would insist that either Kenny or Ben come with me. I wouldn't be okay with Carley, Lilly or Katjaa risking their lives. Being on watch is risk enough.
Can you really imagine the situation where Lee and Kenny are hanging around the motel inn, while Lilly and Carley are making runs to Macon?
Of course, if there's no one else, they will have to do it. When I think about it I'm sure Lilly will be so much better than Kenny

Cyreen, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to reply to that...

Kiel555, the book is great indeed I haven't gone that far yet

But a person who dies from natural causes took a lot longer to turn...almost like six hours.

Are you telling me that Larry wouldn't have turned some quite some time? Oh man...
Rock114, I was actually talking about the beginning of the book and the first... person that was bitten

[Cyreen]

Originally Posted by Xarne

No offense but I think you and nana are reading too much Cosmo

Right. That wasn't sexist. Mind boggling.

I grew up northern Canada, basic survival skills were just part of growing up and yeah, my grandmother, besides being a registered nurse and raising 8 kids, hunted. Don't be so incredibly small minded.

[YamiRaziel]

Originally Posted by Cyreen

Right. That wasn't sexist. Mind boggling.

I grew up northern Canada, basic survival skills were just part of growing up and yeah, my grandmother, besides being a registered nurse and raising 8 kids, hunted. Don't be so incredibly small minded.

If something goes bump in the night, I take care of it.

Good Cyreen. I don't really feel comfortable commenting on your personal life so can we just ignore that?
Since I started all this I will say that it is obvious that there are exceptions but doesn't change the facts that men are bigger and stronger. If something is sexist here, blame it on nature.
I still wouldn't sent women hunting if there are men available. It feels wrong plus people like Carley and Katjaa wouldn't last long out there. I'm sorry if you feel offended, but it's just how it is.
Don't take it so personally. We were obviously not talking about you...
We are not small minded, we just look at the bigger picture...

[DreadMagus]

The bigger picture is that Carley is the best shot in the group... why wouldn't you send her out if you needed something... ahem... shot. (for example)

[YamiRaziel]

Originally Posted by DreadMagus

The bigger picture is that Carley is the best shot in the group... why wouldn't you send her out if you needed something... ahem... shot. (for example)

It is a bit debatable if she's the best shot. I haven't seen any proof of that. Both Lee and Lilly are really good shots too, so I think this is an overstatement. The only bad shot is Mark obviously Poor guy can't shoot a bird...

Why would I need anything being shot down in Macon? Why would I need anything being shot at all? To attract all the walkers in the area and the one next to it? What I need is rough power, speed and a person I can count on.
Can Carley lift me up on that truck or whatever it was? Can she lift that door that almost crushes Lee? Carley isn't physically strong. She's not fit for the job. Poor girl can't even get her leg off the walkers grip in ep. 1
That's the bigger picture :P

[DreadMagus]

I dunno, Carley seemed to be the developer's zombie head popper of choice.

Also - Doug's male and can't even get away from a zombie touching his back

[YamiRaziel]

Originally Posted by DreadMagus

I dunno, Carley seemed to be the developer's zombie head popper of choice.

Also - Doug's male and can't even get away from a zombie touching his back

There were a lot of zombies touching his back

Both Lee and Lilly did a lot of head shots in ep. 3

[Cyreen]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

Good Cyreen. I don't really feel comfortable commenting on your personal life so can we just ignore that?

By all means do, as the comment wasn't directed at you, as noted by the quote attached (which was directed at my personal life).

This just explains so much.

[Rock114]

I like how this thread went from attacking Kenny to equal rights. Can we re-title this thread please? :P

[Kiel555]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

Kiel555, the book is great indeed I haven't gone that far yet

Are you telling me that Larry wouldn't have turned some quite some time? Oh man...
Rock114, I was actually talking about the beginning of the book and the first... person that was bitten

I don't want to spoil anything even though we are in a spoiler thread and an area of the forum where spoilers are okay....

Let's just say that someone in the book dies of natural causes just like Larry did with his heart problems. This person died in the late evening and reanimated in the morning. I'd say about 6-7 hours after being confirmed dead. This is a book that Kirkman wrote so I'd say that's about as official as it gets. If Larry died of a heart attack he would still reanimate but hours later. The ones who reanimate right away are the ones who got bit first. That person at the beginning of the book turned fast, like in minutes, but he was also bit big time.

Unfortunately, this novel does not cover the other case where someone dies but due to massive blood loss not associated with a bite, like the band teacher David or Travis in the video game.

It sure seems that the more traumatic way a person dies the faster they reanimate with someone who dies of old age or other natural conditions reanimates after a longer time...say a few hours. This is based on the video game and the novel. I've not read the comics.

[Kiel555]

Originally Posted by Cyreen

Right. That wasn't sexist. Mind boggling.

I grew up northern Canada, basic survival skills were just part of growing up and yeah, my grandmother, besides being a registered nurse and raising 8 kids, hunted. Don't be so incredibly small minded.

In the game, I do wish we had the option of who to take on these missions, hunting and supply runs. I'd take Carley or Lilly with me every time. Primarily because zombies don't seem to panic them, they're good shots, alert and trustworthy.

Nevertheless, sending men would be the right thing to do generally speaking. Not because the women are not capable but because the task requires strength, endurance, carrying capacity, lifting, running and possible hand to hand combat. Granted, some women can do all this just fine but on avarage these are were men are more suited....generally speaking.

Although I would prefer to have Carley with me, we would have been in trouble if she was on the trailer and had to lift Lee up like Kenny did. Of course Kenny droppped Lee but was able to pull him up on the second try.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

Not all walker jumps at you. In the comic book Rick notices that there are 2 types of walkers, lurkers (not sure if that was the exact name) and roamers. The roamers are constantly moving around while the lurkers are mostly staying in one place until somebody gets really close to them. So you can't know sure what zombie Larry would've been if he died. Not all of them are fast and energetic. Also the time a dead person needs to turn can vary greatly. Our characters do not know enough to say something like this as a statement.
In ep. 3 when Duck was bitten, you spent HOURS with him. Many characters die minutes after they are bitten, but you let the kid stay into the van where everybody was. If there was an option to ask to leave him out would you have taken it? Kenny is a hypocrite! If he was so concerned about the group why didn't he remove his son earlier? Duck could've died minutes after he was bitten and reanimate before Katjaa even reacted. But it's his family so we all allow that and Larry wasn't definitely his family.

Also Lee had enough power to wrestle Andy and Kenny was even shot. If he was that weak he would've lost consciousness. I think he was overreacting when he said he can barely stand.
Never seen Lilly go hunting? You're going to let a woman go hunting when there are man available? I've never seen Kenny being on watch but I'm not holding that against him.
What do I care if he fixes the RV (to let his family escape) when he's never there for me when I need him. He left me for dead too many times, even when I was going to help his family. Yeah, I'm sure I will be better off without him.

So theres a 50/50 chance that he will leap up and kill everyone? Seems like another gamble with peoples lives. Oh boy!

And we've so far only seen 1 dead person turn and he turned very fast. Cant blame Kenny and my Lee for thinking Larry would do the same.

Again, Duck is there first bite victim, how would they have known it varys from person to person? I guess youre basing some of youre new facts on the comic books and the game might not be 100% canon to it. And what we know is that its not the bite that does it, the bite just kills you and then you get infected. Basically we had until Duck died and turned to make a decision and i trusted them to eventually make the right choice and kill him. Or at least tell me when he was about to die, which Katjaa did.

Lee isnt the sort to overreact to me. And Andy nearly killed Lee aswell. At one point he is dragging you to the fence and you cant break free. The only reason he doesnt kill you is because of Kenny/Lilly. Also fighting a huge zombie walker in a enclosed area is much harder than fighting Andy in the open.

And i try to not be sexist during the ZA :P
Everyone has to pull their weight, just because you're a woman doesnt mean all you do is sit and stay on watch. Carely knew that, she went with me to the St Johns. If you act like a tough bitch all the time, scare the group and eat food, and all you do in return is stay on watch, thats not really a good pay off. Especially if you start headshotting other members of the group. And supply runs and fixing the RV (I dont care if its for his family, it saved everyone) does not equal sitting on watch and scaring the crap out of ben.

If "never there for me when i need him" means "wont needlesssly throw himself at zombies if im about to be eaten" then sure. Its not like he refuses to go with you on the supply trip and if he did, youre Lee would be going with Ben
He also contributes alot more than you give him credit for with the added benefit of not being a phyco.

[Sir Fruitcakes]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Not to mention the fact that at least Kenny had the guts to come with you. Never seen Lilly leave the camp and help get supplies

Would you rather Ben keep watch in the camp, over Lily? she was obviously keeping watch when you all 3 came back. and we saw how it went when Ben was keeping watch. I think Lily was doing just fine until her father stopped being around. Lily was Much more productive Before larry died, maybe its just because it was like a week after her father was murdered infront of her, and the ends dont justify the means, by the way. Kennys a awesome guy, but that doesn't mean he made the right call.

Originally Posted by Wrighty

He also contributes alot more than you give him credit for with the added benefit of not being a phyco.

Dont assume Lily was always a psycho because she was in the end--thats very judgmental and unfair.
She became psychotic due to mental stress/trauma which, ill add, was Caused by Kenny. Lily/Larry contributed together alot more than you give them credit for, Kenny did what he thought was Right, but it was also wrong. I appreciate both Kenny and Lily, but I also liked Larry alot more than both of them, not because he was a "Swell guy", but because he didn't hide what he thought of people, Like Kenny and Lily both do, and I find myself not agreeing with anything Kenny says after Ep1, not agreeing with anything Larry says at all, and only agreeing with Lily after her father died. (Except for the R.V. part of course.)

[YamiRaziel]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

So theres a 50/50 chance that he will leap up and kill everyone? Seems like another gamble with peoples lives. Oh boy!

And we've so far only seen 1 dead person turn and he turned very fast. Cant blame Kenny and my Lee for thinking Larry would do the same.

Again, Duck is there first bite victim, how would they have known it varys from person to person? I guess youre basing some of youre new facts on the comic books and the game might not be 100% canon to it. And what we know is that its not the bite that does it, the bite just kills you and then you get infected. Basically we had until Duck died and turned to make a decision and i trusted them to eventually make the right choice and kill him. Or at least tell me when he was about to die, which Katjaa did.

Lee isnt the sort to overreact to me. And Andy nearly killed Lee aswell. At one point he is dragging you to the fence and you cant break free. The only reason he doesnt kill you is because of Kenny/Lilly. Also fighting a huge zombie walker in a enclosed area is much harder than fighting Andy in the open.

And i try to not be sexist during the ZA :P
Everyone has to pull their weight, just because you're a woman doesnt mean all you do is sit and stay on watch. Carely knew that, she went with me to the St Johns. If you act like a tough bitch all the time, scare the group and eat food, and all you do in return is stay on watch, thats not really a good pay off. Especially if you start headshotting other members of the group. And supply runs and fixing the RV (I dont care if its for his family, it saved everyone) does not equal sitting on watch and scaring the crap out of ben.

If "never there for me when i need him" means "wont needlesssly throw himself at zombies if im about to be eaten" then sure. Its not like he refuses to go with you on the supply trip and if he did, youre Lee would be going with Ben
He also contributes alot more than you give him credit for with the added benefit of not being a phyco.

Oh man, you're like seriously twisting everything we've said.
I would be glad if everybody read Kiel555. You know for Omid's sake!
For the last time Larry was not even dead. His mouth even moves... Now we hear that he might have not even reanimated for hours... There is absolutely nothing that you can say that will make Kenny's choice the right call. He and you (possible) abandoned hope, gave up on one of your own and killed him in cold blood just because you were afraid. Deal with it.
Kenny murdered Lilly's father and one week after that he's still giving her hell... Yeah I will pretty much say he's the root of all problems in ep. 3.
Andy was much, much stronger than most of the walkers... Actually just yesterday I watched a playthrough where a girl was playing and killed Larry. Lilly, of course did not help Lee but neither did Kenny. Lee broke from Andy's grip on his own and finished him. So yeah, Lee is pretty capable of dealing with Andy and some damn slow walker.
You just chose the easier way...
I'm glad you try not to be sexist, cause I'm not sexist at all. I'm being realistic here.
Carley knew what? How many time was she on watch while we were playing? How many times did she go hunting? As far as I recall in ep. 3 she was watching the sunset from the balcony, contemplating how to seduce Lee... yeah really productive Carley. Plus how did she get captured...she was on the frikkin balcony and was supposed to have a gun.

Oh, Lilly scared poor little group and eat food? Oh I agree the witch should burn... She was the only one to keep a count of her own... she was trying to protect the group and was actually doing more than almost everybody on the group. The RV saved everybody? No, Lilly saved everybody by shooting the "I don't like no hash guy" and giving them chance to fight back.
The RV was something that Kenny meant to escape with.
Kenny and Lee are never on watch, so they contribute by hunting and scavenging for supplies.
When you go to Macon you can choose between two type of people. Fast stealthy smart Glenn type of guys or stronger, tough Daryl kind of guys. Why the heck would I bring Carley. I don't want her to attract a herd by shooting somebody and I need somebody that can actually lift me up (Kenny is useless too, but the best we've got).
Ben is a teenager, so Kenny is the only possible choice. Ben would be the second one if Kenny wasn't there.
Lilly is great and I would gladly have her keep my back safe, but she's needed back in the motor inn. That's the reality we live in and there's nothing sexist about it.

As for your argument with the burning building... it is absolutely invalid. First of all Kenny abandons you back in the dairy for no apparent reason when you are actually trying to save his family.
Secondly he abandons you in Macon. You've brought him up so that there is somebody to help you if you're in a tight spot, not leave you to save his own damn skin. I don't need him to come with me to Macon if he's going to more of a liability than help.