the Katjja conundrum

[Xarne]

Originally Posted by Master of Aeons

Protecting others, giving up things for others and doing things without personal interest are the few examples of non-selfish acts.

Unless you're Christian. Then you just want to go to heaven.

By that definition, the protection of others is done because you want that person to go unharmed, giving food to others people, you dont want them to go hungry, you want them to be nourished. The peace of mind knowing you took care of others brings you personal satisfaction

Philosophy is too heady for me

[Master of Aeons]

It's true. Which is why I didn't want to get into the philosophy of it all. But if there's a percentage of selflessness/selfishness to every act, I think that those three are majorly selfless (unless you're just trying to get in good graces with ulterior motives). I think that suicide (not sacrificing yourself) is about 90% selfish. It's based on your own pain, your own feelings about the future and discounts your life in other people's perspective.

Sure, it's your life and your choice and all that, but it's still selfish.

I once knew a kid who killed himself. The gist of his letter was "no one will miss me." There were thirty people on his front lawn all crying louder than I've seen anyone in my life. Another guy hung himself. His note said "I have no one". He left his body for his ten year old son to find in the morning.

I ain't really going to be moved by a tale of how suicide thinks of other people and benefits the world. It just doesn't do anything but makes someone suffer less.

[Xarne]

Well then I guess Im breaking character here and saying that in Kat's case, I can understand her weakness and dont fault her for the suicide. In fact, it takes a massive amount of willpower and maybe hope to even want to survive a ZA- not knowing if things will ever return to what we perceived them as- to know you might possibly be in a state of survival and stuck on earth with undead as the new top of the food chain til the end of your remaining days is bleak as hell.

[DreadMagus]

I don't see her act as a selfish one.

Just a weak one.

[RafaelBrasileiro]

even with his dead son, Katjja not thought about Kenny.
She left Kenny(emotionally destroyed) alone in the world.

[Cyreen]

I don't know about "weak". Fear of death is a pretty powerful instinct to override all of a sudden.

[thestalkinghead]

from the start katjaa said that she believed everything would eventually go back to normal, but when Duck got bitten she knew it would never be the same, so she couldn't keep on going, but it was selfish, especially leaving Duck

[Phantom Command]

Originally Posted by Master of Aeons

It's true. Which is why I didn't want to get into the philosophy of it all. But if there's a percentage of selflessness/selfishness to every act, I think that those three are majorly selfless (unless you're just trying to get in good graces with ulterior motives). I think that suicide (not sacrificing yourself) is about 90% selfish. It's based on your own pain, your own feelings about the future and discounts your life in other people's perspective.

Sure, it's your life and your choice and all that, but it's still selfish.

I once knew a kid who killed himself. The gist of his letter was "no one will miss me." There were thirty people on his front lawn all crying louder than I've seen anyone in my life. Another guy hung himself. His note said "I have no one". He left his body for his ten year old son to find in the morning.

I ain't really going to be moved by a tale of how suicide thinks of other people and benefits the world. It just doesn't do anything but makes someone suffer less.

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

from the start katjaa said that she believed everything would eventually go back to normal, but when Duck got bitten she knew it would never be the same, so she couldn't keep on going, but it was selfish, especially leaving Duck

I agree,

Katjja may have lost her son but she didn't finish what she said she would do and instead -

1) Left a griveing husband who still had to deal with Duck
2) A son who's last dying memory is that of his mother killing herself in front of him
3) A little girl called Clem who saw her as as mother figure as seen in their first meeting at Hershal's farm and left her with no female role model
4) Lee, a man who bonded with her and tried to give her hope, and now feels like he failed.
5) Ben, I know he caused the chain of events but how would you feel knowing your actions not only killed a son but also a mother and destroyed a farther's will to fight

She did this knowng that the group had just lost Doug/Carley, Lilly, their home and about to loose Duck.

You could say Kenny killing Larry destroyed the group but they were still together at the beggining of ep3, so I say it was Kats suicide that destroyed it as Lee and Clem can go their own way, Kenny is truely broken showing Omid how to drive the train in case anything happens.

I know its a persons "right" to do whatever they want with their life, but its the life's left behind that have to deal with the aftermath when someone commits suicide in this context.

[Sir Fruitcakes]

Originally Posted by Phantom Command

1) Was Katjja’s decision to kill herself selfish?

Yes, it was selfish, considering what shes making Kenny go through, alone.

but atleast she had the decency and strength to wait until she was in the forest before doing it.

Originally Posted by Cyreen

I don't know about "weak". Fear of death is a pretty powerful instinct to override all of a sudden.

Fear of death isn't hard to overcome when you lost what you dedicated your life to (Her Son), to begin with.

[Zeruis]

I was surprised how calm Katjaa was while taking care of Duck. She didn't feel phased by it. That all made sense when she chose to commit suicide. She had already accepted her own death when Duck was bitten.

[Cyreen]

Originally Posted by Sir Fruitcakes

Fear of death isn't hard to overcome when you lost what you dedicated your life to

Know that for a fact?

My point was that I think that given Katjaa's dislike of guns and her love for Kenny, the choice to kill herself wasn't "weak", but required resolve and strength.

[adontimasu]

Originally Posted by Milosuperspesh

you can leave duck 'alive' or to turn when you find kats body, and say to kenny do it but then when it says 'do it' or it'll be ok let it time out..

Dude, can you post a video on YouTube showing that? I cannot find a single bit of conformation on that.

[DreadMagus]

Originally Posted by Cyreen

Know that for a fact?

My point was that I think that given Katjaa's dislike of guns and her love for Kenny, the choice to kill herself wasn't "weak", but required resolve and strength.

She was a weak woman, you see that in episode 1 and 2 when you talk to her without Kenny hanging over her. Her focus was Duck, Duck got bit and she gave up before even ending his suffering.

Hell, all she did was kill herself and make potential zombie duck a meal.

There was no strength in that. No resolve. Just "aww shit I can't go on."

Not even a goodbye for her husband.

Hmm, I guess it was both weak "and" selfish.

[Cyreen]

It's a matter of perspective. If you let the scene progress according to Katjaa's plan, I very much got the sense that she said goodbye to Kenny.

[Milosuperspesh]

Originally Posted by adontimasu

Dude, can you post a video on YouTube showing that? I cannot find a single bit of conformation on that.

first attempt was too big file size wise so gonna redo soon

[chaz99]

Referring to the OP- yes, IMO it was very selfish. 99% of suicides are essentially selfish acts and those who commit suicide almost universally have no clue on the impact that their act has upon others. The level of their pain and self-pity generally make them blind to that.

The group still needed her, Kenny still needed her and there were others that cared about her. That being said, she may have also had made a prior decision that if something were to happen to Duck then she was going to "opt out".

She quit. Like the guy who hung himself to be found by Daryl and Andrea in the TV series:

GOT BIT
FEVER HIT
WORLD GONE TO SHIT
MIGHT AS WELL QUIT

[JabbaDaHuttX7]

No more selfish than wanting someone to live for your own sake despite their pain.

... man, that sounds so melodramatic.

[KMatt]

It's impossible for most of us on these forums to comprehend Katjaa's mind state at this time. I may be being a tad presumptive but I would guess there are not many mothers with young children playing this game.

Losing their only child (and in such an unnatural and drawn out way) would have completely destroyed her. I can easily understand why she decided there was no reason for her to continue. This was not a selfish decision, this woman had lost everything that mattered to her in the world.

To those people who ask how she could have left Kenny, the uncomfortable truth is that Kenny is just her husband. Duck was her child. We can assume she gave birth to him in the normal way and raised him herself so that bond is far stronger than anything a husband and wife can have.

[Wrighty]

Seems kind of stupid to judge someone for committing suicide even though I haven't ever been in the same situation.

At the end of the day, if you can't go on then you can't go on. I also can't blame her for wanting to be with Duck, wherever he is.

[Phantom Command]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Seems kind of stupid to judge someone for committing suicide even though I haven't ever been in the same situation.

I would hope not, are you a walker?

Judging no, there are two sides to every story and everyone is entitled to their oppinion.

Sure its her life/choice but in a world filled with death and misery why add to it