Robert Kirkman really screwed up Lily in The Road to Woodbury...

[Red Panda]

The novel is the only back story we can accept.

The game can never be the back story because of the "tailored" experience. For example, people would never be able to agree if Lee helped kill her father or not.

The novel is stable.

[Zhombre]

heres the thing though, vainamoinen i read your posts earlier( i didnt want to quote here and start a textbook) and i agree to the reasoning why lily would of been a good choice to make a backstory for a minor character canonized through the twd game, and indeed your right, there are not 2 lilys in the comic like you stated, but again i digress. By kirkman having a 2nd lily in the walking dead universe, take away anything from the lily you experience in the walking dead game? Because she doesnt turn out to be the one who shoots lori and judy, does that not make her interesting anymore? She is a well rounded character that you see get reactions from the fanbase, tell tale did a great job at making you care about what she does (thus spurning this whole debate) but the statements im seeing here generally accusing kirkman of crapping on the fanbase is a pretty big overstatement and inaccurate at best. If he were to have officially confirmed her the same character, then did the backstory with the book then i would agree with everyone's statement. However since he made the distinction pretty clear here by making the book very different than twd game's lily, that there are now, infact 2 different lilys in the same universe. Its due to preconceived notions and expectations that theres such reaction to this. Every other character your attached to has zero source material in the comic and you care more about these than i ever did lily. Clementine and lee, carley- all fan favorites never existed in the comic. who cares if its the same lily? That just opens up for new opportunities for them to reintroduce the character if they want because theres no source material for the character

also let it be known im not a kirkman fanboy here, hes licensed the crap out of the walking dead ( theres tons of terrible twd merchandise.. go on amazon.com and ull see) but anything story based involving his characters he doesnt screw around with lightly. as much as people may not like the fact the twd games lily isnt the same, the validity of the canon across mediums is still maintained.

[Jokieman]

All I can say is that if he takes it seriously, he should have found a better writer. The books are No Bueno with bad descriptions (Cadillac Escalade as a Muscle Car? Really?), one dimensional characters, etc..

Maybe his target audience is supposed to be much younger though (like 10?)

[Attenoel]

This is disappointing. First, I learn about a novel series that differs from the comics. (Which I haven't read. I do watch the show.)
Then, I find that the new book in that series features one of my favorite characters in the game. Until reading this thread I find out that it doesn't. Really.

[Pellet]

I was going to actually buy the book before learning this.... Thanks bro!
Looks like im going for another 19 years without willingly wanting to read a book lol

[Pedis]

Originally Posted by Vainamoinen

I read that too. It's an interview from August - four months after the game Season had started. The game was advertised with Lilly as being "from the comics" in some way, but I'm not sure in what way exactly, and I have trouble digging it out right now. I do know that there was at least one allusion in her game character description which stated something like "will play a crucial role in Rick's life" or something. So Lilly Caul was always MEANT to be the girl who shoots Rick's wife and her baby in the blink of an eye by the Telltale designers.

You're right. In the survivors guide part 3, Lilly is descibed as being ordered to fire upon Rick and the other occupants of the prison, killing Lori (Ricks wife) and their baby.

[Girlbrushthreepwood]

The way i see it is since the tv show & comic are not identical things can change in one that don't happen in either other, so this is just one of those instances where the game just told a different story then the books/comic/tv that's all

[YamiRaziel]

Originally Posted by Zhombre

heres the thing though, vainamoinen i read your posts earlier( i didnt want to quote here and start a textbook) and i agree to the reasoning why lily would of been a good choice to make a backstory for a minor character canonized through the twd game, and indeed your right, there are not 2 lilys in the comic like you stated, but again i digress. By kirkman having a 2nd lily in the walking dead universe, take away anything from the lily you experience in the walking dead game? Because she doesnt turn out to be the one who shoots lori and judy, does that not make her interesting anymore? She is a well rounded character that you see get reactions from the fanbase, tell tale did a great job at making you care about what she does (thus spurning this whole debate) but the statements im seeing here generally accusing kirkman of crapping on the fanbase is a pretty big overstatement and inaccurate at best. If he were to have officially confirmed her the same character, then did the backstory with the book then i would agree with everyone's statement. However since he made the distinction pretty clear here by making the book very different than twd game's lily, that there are now, infact 2 different lilys in the same universe. Its due to preconceived notions and expectations that theres such reaction to this. Every other character your attached to has zero source material in the comic and you care more about these than i ever did lily. Clementine and lee, carley- all fan favorites never existed in the comic. who cares if its the same lily? That just opens up for new opportunities for them to reintroduce the character if they want because theres no source material for the character

also let it be known im not a kirkman fanboy here, hes licensed the crap out of the walking dead ( theres tons of terrible twd merchandise.. go on amazon.com and ull see) but anything story based involving his characters he doesnt screw around with lightly. as much as people may not like the fact the twd games lily isnt the same, the validity of the canon across mediums is still maintained.

Unfortunately, you're completely wrong. The game Lilly was created as the comic book Lilly because Kirkman gave his permission. Then at some point he realized that Telltale is doing an amazing job with the character and even the players who hated her admitted that she was one of the most interesting characters in the game. Somewhere during that time Kirkman decided to screw with his fanbase again and write a mediocre (probably, based on people's reactions) story about Lilly and completely disregard the one we already had. It wouldn't have been very difficult to tie the book to the game, heck fanfic writers wouldn't have had much trouble doing that.
That thing is Kirkman doesn't care. He thinks he's cool when he fucks up with the fans. Thing is, he doesn't realize that there is a certain line which even he shouldn't cross.
I'm 100% positive this book would've sold much much better had this been the same Lilly as the one we love from the game.

[DreadMagus]

Yeah, his narcissism is somewhat annoying.

[Vainamoinen]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

Then at some point he realized that Telltale is doing an amazing job with the character and even the players who hated her admitted that she was one of the most interesting characters in the game. Somewhere during that time Kirkman decided to [...] write a mediocre (probably, based on people's reactions) story about Lilly and completely disregard the one we already had.

THAT is fiction.

But I AM glad that no Glenn backstory novel is on the horizon for some reason...

[ZacTB]

YamiRaziel I agree with what you said, I think I have mentioned this before but it's worse that Kirkman hasn't even done a statement or even acknowledged this.

[slimymeteor]

I was also disappointed when I found out about the novel's Lilly having a different backstory than the game's Lilly, but I don't think it ruins the whole series or anything. They can still all exist in the same universe. The explanation we have to accept, if we want the comics, novels and game to all be canon, is that these are in fact two different Lillys.

We know Telltale developed the game with Lilly in mind as the comic book character, but they've since taken down any and all references to her being a character in the comic from the official site, as well as removed the 'Woodbury bound' achievement. That's basically confirming that it isn't the same character, even if they originally planned it that way.

As far as I can remember, they never mentioned Lilly's last name in the video game. So even if it is strange, I can accept that there is another brunette Lilly who worked at an Air Force base in Georgia, winding up with different groups of survivors. A little coincidental, yeah, but still possible. Since they are different characters, that of course means game Lilly could always show up again in Season 2, unless she was devoured by walkers on the side of the road.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by DreadMagus

I hate to say it, but this change keeps me from buying the book.

I was hoping there'd be enough to tie the game to the comic... now... meh....

The way I see it, Kirkman is the writer and creator of both the comics and the novel. Lilly is a character created by him. He doesn't need to write her around Telltale's video game. They need to write her around Kirkman's vision for the character. The novel's are more canon than the video game because they are made by the same person and act as a prequel. The characters from the novels are characters that will be seen in the comics or in settings found in the comics. The Hershel in the video game doesn't look like the Hershel in the comics and Lily in the game wasn't designed to look like the Lily in the comics. Telltale wanted to add their own touch to the game. The game was great but one must remember the game is not the walking dead's origins, it's the comics, so I would consider the Lily in the novel to be canon and a congruent with the Lily we know from the comics even if the novel came out after the game since she was written in the novel by the same person that wrote her in the comics.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Motordead

Its like telling George Lucas to not include something in his movies. He has the right to change whatever he wants in the story and in his universe. And like the mod said it takes months, maybe even years to write a good novel. You can't make base everything off of Telltales game, they did not create the walking dead universe.

My thoughts exactly.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Red Panda

I kind of equally blame both. Kirkman for not putting in the effort to make it cannon and TT for using a comic book character and protagonist from a fucking novel as a major character. They should have done what they did with Glenn. That was the best way to approach it I believe.

Kirkman's novels are canon! Some people seem to be forgetting who wrote the walking dead. Kirkman never said the game was canon, Telltale did. That was their intention. Kirkman has the right to to write his characters they way he see's fit. It's Telltale's game that risks becoming less authentic when they chose to introduce characters in their game that Kirkman hasn't finished developing.

Kirkman's novel trilogy is canon to the walking dead and fleshes out the back stories of HIS characters. Kirkman's depiction of Lily in the novels is closer to the Lily in the comics than Telltale's version of Lily ever was. Telltale depicted Lily as some cold hearted callous killer when she killed Carly/Doug. When I saw that in the game I thought WTF. That isn't how Lily was in the comics. In the comics she killed Lori, not because she was a cold hearted evil woman but because she was manipulated by the Governor and deceived. She had been told that Rick's group were wicked, dangerous and were planning to return to Woodbury and harm her people. When she realised that she had shot an unarmed woman with a baby she was furious at the Governor for what he made her do and killed him when she saw he was the wicked one and Rick's group were not the people he said they were.

Kirkman's vision for the Lily character was different from Telltales. Telltale should have asked Kirkman about her back story instead of assuming her character wouldn't be later fleshed out. Kirkman had decided to write the novel trilogy before Telltale pitched the idea of making their game.

To say Kirkman should have consulted Telltale about what he was doing with his novel is like saying a parent should tell their children what their home improvement plans are to check that it is alright with them.

[DreadMagus]

You should research things a bit more.

[Kiel555]

Originally Posted by ZacTB

SPOILERS FOR EPISODE 3 BELOW:

I remember there being a topic on this ages ago but I really hate how Robert Kirkman completely changed Lily's backstory when Telltale had it covered in the video game. Having Lily in the video game was great after reading the comics and my favourite part of the game is in Episode 3 outside of the RV and that whole sequence, and where I realised that Lee's (my) actions led her to what she did and I left her on the side of the road. That was a great moment as it made me think that if the meatlocker situation was handled differently, she never would have ended up in Woodbury and Lori and the baby from the comics could still be alive.

I know that choices don't really matter but from what I did (sided with Kenny in the meatlocker and kind of regretted it) it all made sense. But now it's kind of messed up since in Road to Woodbury (I haven't actually read it, just seen things on the Walking Dead Wikipedia) Kirkman completely changed her backstory including her dad's name and the way he died, even though it is quite clear video game Lily is the same Lily at Woodbury. I really don't understand why Kirkman wouldn't just leave it, from the look of her backstory in Road to Woodbury, Telltale did it so much better anyway. I know it doesn't really matter too much, but things like this bother me.

Has Robert Kirkman ever talked about this? He could have still made Road to Woodbury but made it occur after she seperated from the group (I am sure there is some way he could get past the RV thing, since she would have had to abandon it anyway and either way would have ended up walking on the road), and had her mention Larry. What do you guys think about it?

Edit: Wasn't sure if this should be in the Spoiler section or not, since that is mostly discussing Episode 4 and Episode 3 did come out quite a while ago.

I've read both Rise of the Governor and Road to Woodbury. Rise of the Governor was actually pretty good. I enjoyed reading about a group of survivors who, for the most part, were being smart and even making contingency plans while surviving in a ZA. They also got in jams because of being humans who make mistakes once in awhile not because they were dumb asses most of the time.

The Road to Woodbury was mediocre by comparison and just an okay novel. There are many "why did Kirkman do that" moments but the two that are the most perplexing are these IMO:

1) Why write and use a backstory for Lilly that is worse than the one presented by TTG. Lilly from TTG is far superior in character development and could have convincingly done everything Lilly of the novel did towards the end of the story.

2) Woodbury of the novel is a chaotic hellhole where no sane person would want to live while Woodbury of the tv show is a All-American city complete with minimum number and types of trees. I thought Kirkman was involved with both projects.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by lucidity02

Yeah, I see your point. Like I mentioned above, Telltale could have just named the character Sylvia or Edna or whatever and there wouldn't be any confusion about what was canon and what wasn't -- or they could have just had Lilly show up, chat a little bit in episode one and then bounce.

That said, novels take a long time to write, and I feel like there was ample time for Kirkman to step in and send an email that said "Sup, fools? Hey, Lilly in the novel is totally different from the character you've created. Want me to add a little throwaway line into the novel that says that prior events have turned her into a timid character totally unlike the one you're depicting in your game? Cool. I'll do that."

That's an oversimplification, maybe, and Kirkman DOES own the universe, but it would have been a cool thing for him to do. I'm a little surprised he didn't.

Kirkman shouldn't have to alter his vision for his novel to tie in with Telltale's video game. Are you serious? It's lucky for Telltale if future comic episodes or novels play out in such away that keeps their game authentic and canon, but if it doesn't tough titty. Kirkman doesn't work for them, answer to them or need to consult with them about his future plans. His story is canon and is the story of the walking dead. At the end of the day the Lily shown in the novel is more like the Lily in the comics than the Lily we saw in the video game. Telltale had less do go on when writing Lily in the game since she only had a short role in the comics. Kirkman knew how he wanted Lily to be when he first wrote her in the comics as he knew how he wanted the Governor to be. Kirkman felt those characters had more to say after their demise and chose to flesh out their characters through his prequels in the novel trilogy. Kirkman hasn't done anything wrong. He didn't write the game and didn't say the game was canon. Telltale said the game was canon. That was what they were aiming for. I enjoyed the game and the tv show, both do things slightly differently but still capture the essence of the walking dead. The comic is canon and the novels are prequels to the comic. Kirkman shouldn't tailor make his future projects to fit in with the games that Telltale create or the stories written in the TV show. He only needs to ensure that his novels tie in with his comics which he has achieved.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by godzilla999666

Did it ever occur to you that maybe it was telltale that went away from what kirkman came up with? Maybe kirkman told them the name of lily and a little of the story, and they went off on thier own and created more backstory, her attitude without even discussing it with kirkman. I believe kirkman had the novel idea, and who lily was and her backstory mapped out in his head before this game ever came out or was thought of.

My thoughts exactly.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Vainamoinen

It is stated in the "Playing Dead" videos that Kirkman had the final say concerning story developments in the game. They've run their ideas by him. The idea that the author of the comic series did not know that Telltale was working on something he himself wanted to detail in his world is hardly possible.

Somehow I don't believe that Kirkman would assassinate Telltale by quickdrawing this novel though - heck, it's in his definite interest that people like the game and that it is a worthy addition to his franchise!

People will still like the game the same way people will still like the TV show. I don't think the differences in the novel take away from the games enjoyment nor will it reduce game sales. Maybe it was an over sight, i'm not sure it really matters. The comic is canon and the novels are prequels to the comics, making them canon also. The TV show is not canon but great all the same. Telltale made changes to the Lily character not Kirkman. Personally I didn't feel that Lily in the game was depicted as the Lily I read about in the comics. I have a view on the Lily character, Telltale have a view on her but what matters is Kirkman's since he is her creator. His portrayal of her is the genuine one and I see more consistency between the Lily in the novels and comic than I did with the version Telltale made and the original version of her in the comics.