The Case Against Kenny

[McGyver]

I don't think it's fair to call him an alcoholic just because he has a drink or 3!

After all, it IS an apocolypse! JEEZ!

[TWDFTW]

Originally Posted by McGyver

I don't think it's fair to call him an alcoholic just because he has a drink or 3!

After all, it IS an apocolypse! JEEZ!

Yeah, although in my play through Kenny is a bit on and off with me, everyone needs to let off some steam XD, Ben reaches for the bottle and Lee looks at him like 'WTF' and Bens like okay okay.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

You can't really have a case for/against Kenny, since he does different things in different playthroughs.

When Kenny's at his lowest, he's a pretty terrible person. He kills people who might not be threats, leaves people to die, murders people for revenge, abandons little girls to kidnappers, and he only gets along or cares about people when they do what he wants how he wants.

At his best, he saves people when no one else will, makes tough decisions to protect the group, keeps the group going with purpose, and becomes family with strangers, loyal to the end.

To properly judge Kenny, you'd have to look at whether Kenny at his worst seems worse than other people would react, which is impossible to know. Everyone in TWD has betrayed each other, lied, and done awful things. If other people had as much to lose as Kenny and had lost as much, would they be any different?

So, I think people just have their opinions, not really any evidence. However, I think the "true" Kenny is self serving, and that he's at best conditionally loyal as long as people keep paying their dues. Kenny doesn't have compassion for others. He only cares about his own. If you get him to accept you, he'll back you up, but it's conditional. You'll always be an outsider, and he'll always be willing to betray you if it would help his family. For example, if the bandits had approached the motel and demanded that the group hand over one of their people to be a slave in exchange for being left alone, Kenny would have wanted to do it, so long as it wasn't his family.

Kenny is the kind of guy who wants to feel like he's forced into doing bad things, like when he killed Larry. Or like when he takes the supplies from the car, because that's what you have to do to survive. He's perfectly willing to do bad things; he just needs a pretext so that he doesn't have to feel responsible or face his own lack of moral compass. This is why the confrontation with Ben is so important. As Kenny moves from being forced to do bad things to doing them without pretense, he's becoming more of a monster, more of what he truly is.

Killing someone who might be a threat isn't necessarily a bad thing. He was looking out for his family, not like he smashed Larry's head in for the hell of it.
Also when does he murder someone for revenge? Can't think of anyone.
Sure he abandoned you're Lee's Clem, but think about what he's gone through. Lost his entire family and was under stress since episode 1. He was the one constantly pushing for the group to leave and get a boat, fighting Lilly tooth and nail. The boat becomes all that he has left and he concentrates on it fully. Finally it arrives and they get the stuff and BAM. Clem kidnapped and now you have the choice of risking the last hurdle and going on a stupid suicide mission or guarding the boat. Add the fact he hates your Lee and its easy to see why he didn't help.

If by "paying your dues" you mean not makin stupid decisions that risk his family then sure. Besides you don't have to back him up on everything, just Larry where it matters. And family comes first for Kenny. Its completely natural. You thin Lilly doesn't put her dad above everyone else? I saw a poll where people said they would let everyone else in the group die before Clem. Also Kenny is one of the few people to have lost what he did in the game. Lilly is the only one like him and she went crazy.

You make it sound like Kenny enjoyed doing what he did and jus needed a reason and that's pretty obviously wrong. Did you see his face after Larry. He does like to have someone with him when he makes the bad and hard choices and I don't mind. Finally you call him a monster for wanting Ben dead. The guys family died like a few days ago, and Ben stands up and admits its his fault. Of course he wants him dead! Loads of people wanted him dead for what happened to Carely and we didn't know her that well

[Kelium]

During the beginning of the game when I first met Kenny and his family after the farm incident I felt that Kenny was just doing what any normal parent would do. He saved his kid from man eating monsters. I mean hell they have no idea about zombies like we do, like Kirkman mentioned that the world he portrays has no zombie fiction in it. So imagine how traumatic it is to see a corpse coming for you and doesn't stop. I don't think many of us could do the things we say we could do in real life even with all the zombie fiction we have. Its just like Lee said it the best. "When you do something in the heat of the moment you think its right but looking back you always wonder if it was."

When we got to the drugstore Kenny needed help with a man that wanted to throw his son out to die just because he was afraid. Since the apocalypse has only started that day most people would have their humanity intact, and I was not going to let a man throw out a fathers son to die, the thing is we had no idea what was going on and I played with this attitude when I first played my game with no turning back on decisions.

I am not going to list anymore points why I feel that Kenny is a good guy or a bad guy, it has been regurgitated more than once on this forum, in fact there is a whole thread dedicated to trashing Kenny's decisions or attitude.

Kenny and Lee are brothers to the end!

[KingOfTheDead]

Originally Posted by Kelium

During the beginning of the game when I first met Kenny and his family after the farm incident I felt that Kenny was just doing what any normal parent would do. He saved his kid from man eating monsters. I mean hell they have no idea about zombies like we do, like Kirkman mentioned that the world he portrays has no zombie fiction in it. So imagine how traumatic it is to see a corpse coming for you and doesn't stop. I don't think many of us could do the things we say we could do in real life even with all the zombie fiction we have. Its just like Lee said it the best. "When you do something in the heat of the moment you think its right but looking back you always wonder if it was."

When we got to the drugstore Kenny needed help with a man that wanted to throw his son out to die just because he was afraid. Since the apocalypse has only started that day most people would have their humanity intact, and I was not going to let a man throw out a fathers son to die, the thing is we had no idea what was going on and I played with this attitude when I first played my game with no turning back on decisions.

I am not going to list anymore points why I feel that Kenny is a good guy or a bad guy, it has been regurgitated more than once on this forum, in fact there is a whole thread dedicated to trashing Kenny's decisions or attitude.

Kenny and Lee are brothers to the end!

I swear in episode 1 shawn said "it's not like it is in the movies" maybe there are zombie movies or he may be referring to killing people and movies

[Ramon_BR1]

Ep 1 - He abandons Shawn, literally runs off, even though his child is safe

Ep 2 - He suggests you might be useful at lockpicking because you're "urban"

Ep 2 - He kills Larry as you're trying to save him

Ep 2 - He tells you he'll back you up handling Danny St John, instead he leaves you to die

Ep 3 - He causes a massive argument at the motel over leaving and is the root cause of the paranoia that leads to Carley, Duck and Katjaa dying.

Ep 3 - He once again leaves you to die as you're trapped under a door

Ep 3 - He drops you while trying to get on the truck

Ep 3 - He fucks you over by blabbing about the girl you kill/leave to die infront of Clem

Ep 3 - He tells you your criminal past will be a factor in getting a place on his boat

Ep 3 - He tells you to leave Lilly behind to die, both at the motel and on the road

Ep 4 - He drops you again when trying to escape up the fire escape.

Ep 4 - He wills you to let Ben die

Ep 4 - He refuses to help save Clem

He stands accused of hypocrisy, selfishness, racism, murder, alcoholism, cowardice, carelessness, trouble making, disloyalty and of being judgemental and uncaring.
Kenny defenders, make your case for the accused because I'd gladly use him as a zombie bait given his charge sheet.

Most of the things you accuse Kenny have done, why you was not sided with him in a good part of the game, he has reason to be angry with you (Anyway​​, he helped me a lot, and help me to find clem).

[HiggsBoson2142]

Ep 1 - He abandons Shawn, literally runs off, even though his child is safe
It's the apocalypse! What do you expect!?

Ep 2 - He kills Larry as you're trying to save him
I sided with Kenny...

Ep 2 - He tells you he'll back you up handling Danny St John, instead he leaves you to die
He goes to get Duck. He helps you with Danny.

Ep 3 - He once again leaves you to die as you're trapped under a door
He helps you!

Ep 3 - He drops you while trying to get on the truck
He was shot.


Ep 4 - He drops you again when trying to escape up the fire escape.
*facepalm*

Ep 4 - He refuses to help save Clem
I'm beginning to feel like you just never sided with him. He automatically came with me because I'd been nice to him

[Ninnuendo]

Kenny doesn't deserve all the excuses that are being made for his despicable behaviour. I'll write off some of them though and leave what's remaining

1.There's no excuse for him running out on Shawn, none at all, Duck was safe.
2.There's no excuse for saying he'll help you with Danny, then leaving you to die
3.There's no excuse for doing nothing and leaving you to die underneath a door

But mostly

4.There is absolutely no fucking excuse for abandoning a kidnapped child, simply because you don't like her carer. That is utterly despicable.

My crime in all this and his justification for being a complete prick? I didn't let him murder someone and wanted to stay somewhere safe.

Fuck Kenny.

[xwmstormx]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

This is a post which I shall be constantly editing because TT keeps logging be out and deleting my saved stuff so bear with me

Perhaps try writing up your post in notepad and then just copy/paste it into a reply? Might save you the hassle of editing from being logged out.

PS: tl;dr

[IndigoHawk]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Killing someone who might be a threat isn't necessarily a bad thing. He was looking out for his family, not like he smashed Larry's head in for the hell of it.
Also when does he murder someone for revenge? Can't think of anyone.
Sure he abandoned you're Lee's Clem, but think about what he's gone through. Lost his entire family and was under stress since episode 1. He was the one constantly pushing for the group to leave and get a boat, fighting Lilly tooth and nail. The boat becomes all that he has left and he concentrates on it fully. Finally it arrives and they get the stuff and BAM. Clem kidnapped and now you have the choice of risking the last hurdle and going on a stupid suicide mission or guarding the boat. Add the fact he hates your Lee and its easy to see why he didn't help.

If by "paying your dues" you mean not makin stupid decisions that risk his family then sure. Besides you don't have to back him up on everything, just Larry where it matters. And family comes first for Kenny. Its completely natural. You thin Lilly doesn't put her dad above everyone else? I saw a poll where people said they would let everyone else in the group die before Clem. Also Kenny is one of the few people to have lost what he did in the game. Lilly is the only one like him and she went crazy.

You make it sound like Kenny enjoyed doing what he did and jus needed a reason and that's pretty obviously wrong. Did you see his face after Larry. He does like to have someone with him when he makes the bad and hard choices and I don't mind. Finally you call him a monster for wanting Ben dead. The guys family died like a few days ago, and Ben stands up and admits its his fault. Of course he wants him dead! Loads of people wanted him dead for what happened to Carely and we didn't know her that well

Hmm, let me try again. Kenny isn't driven by a sense of right or wrong. He's driven by protecting his own, as you say, and I agree that other characters put their family first, too. However, Kenny's the kind of guy who always has an excuse for why he has to do the wrong thing, instead of the guy who finds a reason to do the right thing. That's what I mean when I say that Kenny has no moral compass and is in danger of becoming a monster, especially now that he doesn't have his family (and Katjaa in particular) to be his conscience.

Kenny is the type of person who says ...
... we have to let the girl be eaten alive by zombies BECAUSE it's too dangerous
... we have to kill Larry BECAUSE there's too much risk
... we have to steal these supplies BECAUSE we have to survive

Kenny sees the necessity in doing harm to others.
Also, think about Kenny's boat plan. Kenny was upfront with Lee from the very beginning that maybe not everyone would fit on the boat. Does Kenny care that people will be left behind to die? Maybe, but that's not what's important to him, as long as his family is taken care of.

So, if the boat had been there and there wasn't enough room, Kenny would have decided
... we have to leave people behind BECAUSE they won't fit on the boat

See? Kenny always finds an excuse to do the wrong thing. He is loyal to those he cares about, but always makes sure that a couple people are defined outside his group, so that he knows who to throw under the bus if the time comes.

I think that since Kenny is so tribalistic that he will only descend further into violence as he finds more and more reasons why the needs of his tribe necessitate doing the wrong thing by other people.

Put another way, imagine if Kenny had the St Johns farm. I think Kenny would cannibalize people BECAUSE that's what he needed to do for his family.

I think some of the other characters at this point still try to do the right thing, while Kenny increasingly does the wrong thing and justifies it. If he's already fallen this far in a couple months, how much worse will he get? In some playthroughs, he's already a danger to Clem:
... we have to leave Clem behind BECAUSE the boat is more important

Fortunately he's not as far gone as that in everyone's playthrough, but I don't think Kenny has enough moral fiber to last much longer without being an outright danger to people in the group.

[Malphaxis]

At the farm, anyone with kids would have saved their son and run off to ensure his wife was still safe.
Larry tried to kill me, Kenny saved me. Thats all I needed, Kenny is my man.

[QuarterPounderVlad]

Kenny for president.

[KingOfTheDead]

Originally Posted by QuarterPounderVlad

Kenny for president.

no lee for president

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by Ninnuendo

Kenny doesn't deserve all the excuses that are being made for his despicable behaviour. I'll write off some of them though and leave what's remaining

1.There's no excuse for him running out on Shawn, none at all, Duck was safe.
2.There's no excuse for saying he'll help you with Danny, then leaving you to die
3.There's no excuse for doing nothing and leaving you to die underneath a door

But mostly

4.There is absolutely no fucking excuse for abandoning a kidnapped child, simply because you don't like her carer. That is utterly despicable.

My crime in all this and his justification for being a complete prick? I didn't let him murder someone and wanted to stay somewhere safe.

Fuck Kenny.

How do you know Duck was safe? It's not like zombies couldn't have been aproaching from all sides and were about to overrun the farm. Hindsight is 20/20
He helped me with Danny. Anyway he was pretty pissed at your Lee and wasn't going to charge a man with a gun to save his life. Danny could have easily turned and shot him, like how Kenny was shot by Andy.
You're Lee risked his family's lives and risked them getting eaten for Larry. He pretty much hates your Lee. Also the room was filling with zombies and its better for one to escape than none. Just because he doesn't go Rambo and dives in to save youre Lee and lift a heavy board while zombies approach does not make him a bastard.

And I agree number 4 is pretty bad. But you are basically inviting him to go on a
Suicide mission. Walkie Talkie Guy seems to be constantly watching them and is completely confident. They have to hunt through walker filled Savannah with no leads in the hope of finding Clem.

[Malphaxis]

^this
My Kenny saved me from Larry, helped me with Danny, was shot when he charged Andy, helped me when caught under the door and didnt need to be asked to help rescue Clem. Hell, I disnt even need to ask, he was coming with me after Clem and wasnt having it any other way.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

Hmm, let me try again. Kenny isn't driven by a sense of right or wrong. He's driven by protecting his own, as you say, and I agree that other characters put their family first, too. However, Kenny's the kind of guy who always has an excuse for why he has to do the wrong thing, instead of the guy who finds a reason to do the right thing. That's what I mean when I say that Kenny has no moral compass and is in danger of becoming a monster, especially now that he doesn't have his family (and Katjaa in particular) to be his conscience.

Kenny is the type of person who says ...
... we have to let the girl be eaten alive by zombies BECAUSE it's too dangerous
... we have to kill Larry BECAUSE there's too much risk
... we have to steal these supplies BECAUSE we have to survive

Kenny sees the necessity in doing harm to others.
Also, think about Kenny's boat plan. Kenny was upfront with Lee from the very beginning that maybe not everyone would fit on the boat. Does Kenny care that people will be left behind to die? Maybe, but that's not what's important to him, as long as his family is taken care of.

So, if the boat had been there and there wasn't enough room, Kenny would have decided
... we have to leave people behind BECAUSE they won't fit on the boat

See? Kenny always finds an excuse to do the wrong thing. He is loyal to those he cares about, but always makes sure that a couple people are defined outside his group, so that he knows who to throw under the bus if the time comes.

I think that since Kenny is so tribalistic that he will only descend further into violence as he finds more and more reasons why the needs of his tribe necessitate doing the wrong thing by other people.

Put another way, imagine if Kenny had the St Johns farm. I think Kenny would cannibalize people BECAUSE that's what he needed to do for his family.

I think some of the other characters at this point still try to do the right thing, while Kenny increasingly does the wrong thing and justifies it. If he's already fallen this far in a couple months, how much worse will he get? In some playthroughs, he's already a danger to Clem:
... we have to leave Clem behind BECAUSE the boat is more important

Fortunately he's not as far gone as that in everyone's playthrough, but I don't think Kenny has enough moral fiber to last much longer without being an outright danger to people in the group.

Since Kenny left the boat to help me find Clem and had sympathy I think he does feel empathy for other people. And while he doesn't concentrate on other people and is constantly thinking of survival doesn't necessarily make him a bastard. Sure he makes the smart but cold hearted choices but that doesn't necessarily make him evil. Is he brave or heroic? Not really but then that's probably why he survived so long, by driving past others who could use help. Not being a hero doesn't make you a bad person. I agree with him on the three decisions anyway, would I necessarily turn to cannibalism? It's a pretty huge jump from take food from car whose owners are probably dead to eat others to survive.

Besides how is Kenny a danger to Clem, let alone anyone else? None of his decisions so far has put anyone in danger, they are normally comcerned with keeping people safe. Lee's that save Larry put people in danger to do the "right" thing. Refusing or failing to help doesn't make him a danger anyway, otherwise Ben is a huge danger. I think people get all dramatic when talking about Kenny and talk about him eventually murderin others but think about this. If Kenny didn't shoot Ben with the shotgun in the bell tower soon after hearing what he did, I don't think he will ever kill someone in anger or for truly cold hearted bandit style survival.

[TWDFTW]

Originally Posted by KingOfTheDead

I swear in episode 1 shawn said "it's not like it is in the movies" maybe there are zombie movies or he may be referring to killing people and movies

Yeah the second thing you said. Rick Kirkman said that there was no zombie stuff about so it built up the characters fear even more, and Telltale would not of gone against that (well I hope) because it would just be crappy lol. But good point, I hope Shawn meant killing and murdering etc not zombie movies.

[KingOfTheDead]

Originally Posted by TWDFTW

Yeah the second thing you said. Rick Kirkman said that there was no zombie stuff about so it built up the characters fear even more, and Telltale would not of gone against that (well I hope) because it would just be crappy lol. But good point, I hope Shawn meant killing and murdering etc not zombie movies.

Maybe he could have been talking about killing in general but we'll never know
and no zombie fiction thats weird because zombies were part of african culture they used voodoo dolls which was one of the origins so that never happened

[Gman5852]

Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

You can't really have a case for/against Kenny, since he does different things in different playthroughs.

While true, we do know how he reacts to what you do, and that is always the same. He winds up hating you and getting pissed off horribly because you decided to not murder an old man. That is true regardless of how you played.

[Ghositex]

Kenny and Lilly have both equally good, each one has some flaws and cons, but at the end they are both great. Can't we just stop discussing about it? Also, most people is using examples that depend on their ingame choices, which just doesnt work as an argument :|