Crawford Vs Ben (or Survival Vs Humanity)

[Ninnuendo]

I'm surprised by the current polls. I set it up with the knowledge that there are 2 consistent philosophical views and I expected them to be paired up. What's actually happened is a kind of philosophical hypocrisy.

Support Crawford/Drop Ben - No Votes 0%
This is the most surprising choice. The lack of Crawford supporters is probably a good thing but becomes bizarre when you look below.

Support Crawford/Save Ben - 4 Votes 7.55%
We have 4 Crawford supporters, and all of them saved Ben. What the hell? Seems like a strange contradiction but it's about to get even stranger

Reject Crawford/Drop Ben - 10 Votes 18.87%
The Humanists (or Crawford objectors) are more likely to drop Ben than the survivalists. It's truly strange that people would be against Crawford and then follow through with exactly that attitude, for someone that even Crawford probably wouldn't kill. Keep in mind that Ben isn't ill, is the right age and is malleable.

Reject Crawford/Save Ben - 39 Votes 73.58%
No surprise on this one, the consistent humanists are the largest group.

[TheNNerdGamer]

Originally Posted by Ninnuendo

I'm surprised by the current polls. I set it up with the knowledge that there are 2 consistent philosophical views and I expected them to be paired up. What's actually happened is a kind of philosophical hypocrisy.

Support Crawford/Drop Ben - No Votes 0%
This is the most surprising choice. The lack of Crawford supporters is probably a good thing but becomes bizarre when you look below.

Support Crawford/Save Ben - 4 Votes 7.55%
We have 4 Crawford supporters, and all of them saved Ben. What the hell? Seems like a strange contradiction but it's about to get even stranger

Reject Crawford/Drop Ben - 10 Votes 18.87%
The Humanists (or Crawford objectors) are more likely to drop Ben than the survivalists. It's truly strange that people would be against Crawford and then follow through with exactly that attitude, for someone that even Crawford probably wouldn't kill. Keep in mind that Ben isn't ill, is the right age and is malleable.

Reject Crawford/Save Ben - 39 Votes 73.58%
No surprise on this one, the consistent humanists are the largest group.

(stupid teen skater voice) whhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaattttt????

[Appelsien_BE]

Reject Crawford/Save Ben

Crawford took survival to a stupid level that was bound to fail.
Ben still has potential to shine. I believe in the kid.

[Phoenix VII]

Originally Posted by Ninnuendo

Reject Crawford/Drop Ben - 10 Votes 18.87%
The Humanists (or Crawford objectors) are more likely to drop Ben than the survivalists. It's truly strange that people would be against Crawford and then follow through with exactly that attitude, for someone that even Crawford probably wouldn't kill. Keep in mind that Ben isn't ill, is the right age and is malleable.

Nothing hypocritic here, these folks would have no problem accepting folks like Vernon's people into their group while Ben on the other hand isn't just useless, he gets people killed. And Crawford would definitely give Ben the boot once he does something stupid in the typical Ben fashion.

[Viner16]

Originally Posted by Phoenix VII

Nothing hypocritic here, these folks would have no problem accepting folks like Vernon's people into their group while Ben on the other hand isn't just useless, he gets people killed. And Crawford would definitely give Ben the boot once he does something stupid in the typical Ben fashion.

Crawford wouldn't boot out Ben.

He'd "accidently" fuck up and kill them all before they could

[Ninnuendo]

Originally Posted by Phoenix VII

Nothing hypocritic here, these folks would have no problem accepting folks like Vernon's people into their group while Ben on the other hand isn't just useless, he gets people killed.

In amongst Vernon's group are 3 people who are sick. They'd take those people in, knowing they could die in the night, but let the healthy teenager die? It's completely hypocritical to take the stance as a humanist, then pick and choose who dies, that's exactly what Crawford does.

[Phoenix VII]

Originally Posted by Ninnuendo

In amongst Vernon's group are 3 people who are sick. They'd take those people in, knowing they could die in the night, but let the healthy teenager die? It's completely hypocritical to take the stance as a humanist, then pick and choose who dies, that's exactly what Crawford does.

Their cancers were in remission, and giving Ben the boot after he gets 5 people killed, 4 of them group members, as well as coming within a hair of getting Lee's entire group killed during the Crawford raid isn't just picking and choosing who dies, it's eliminating the greatest threat to the group's survivability before he screws up again. And keep in mind that none of Ben's screw-ups are minor, he screwed up 3 times by my count and each time at least 1 person died.

[thestalkinghead]

ben would be accepted into the crawford society, he wasn't ill or old or a child, he was a healthy teen/young adult, exactly what crawford would want

[Phoenix VII]

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

ben would be accepted into the crawford society, he wasn't ill or old or a child, he was a healthy teen, exactly what crawford would want

He would've. Lasting there is another matter, maybe he would've been fine, but if he makes a stupid mistake that gets someone killed then I'd imagine in a place like Crawford he'd get the firing squad.

[Ninnuendo]

Originally Posted by Phoenix VII

Their cancers were in remission

Vernon says they're sick and they obviously wouldn't have had a significant checkup in some time.

Originally Posted by Phoenix VII

giving Ben the boot after he gets 5 people killed, 4 of them group members, as well as coming within a hair of getting Lee's entire group killed during the Crawford raid isn't just picking and choosing who dies, it's eliminating the greatest threat to the group's survivability before he screws up again. And keep in mind that none of Ben's screw-ups are minor, he screwed up 3 times by my count and each time at least 1 person died.

Let's just examine this for a moment.

Ben actually succeeds in protecting the group. He supplies the bandits and they stay away. Duck and Katjaa aren't his fault, they're Lillys (and by extension, Kennys).
You also can't really blame him for Carley or Doug, he tries in every way to get out of that situation without getting killed. Once again the blame lays with Lilly (and by extension, Kenny)
He's somewhat responsible for Chuck, but Chuck made that choice.
As for Bree, yeah he's at fault but once again he's just doing what he's told. I blame Gary Whitta for that one.

[MoonFaerieJen]

I reject Crawford's policy. They didn't make sense to me, especially with not wanting any children. How can you expect the human race to survive that way? People are people, and to look at the mthe way they did is very sickening and cold.

I didn't let Ben die...even if he was a pain in the ass, I just couldn't let him die..even when it came down to voting him out of the group I just couldn't do it because that is the same as killing him. I hate the guy really especially when he got scared and didn't help Clem and when he took the axe out from the door.. Even so, it just seems wrong to kill Ben. He didn't directly kill Duck or Kaatja..hell, he was pretty naive but in the end the kid just wanted to see his friend again. He never had malicious intentions. I'm sure Kenny would have done something if bandits had his son or wife..
I believe in redemption, I think Ben will be a great person to have on your side in episode 5.

[thestalkinghead]

duck is dead because of bandits/zombies, katjaa killed herself, Carley/Doug are dead because of Lilly, Chuck/bree are dead because of zombies, mark is dead because of bandits/St johns and Larry is dead because of a heart condition.

ben didn't kill anyone

[Phoenix VII]

Originally Posted by Ninnuendo

Vernon says they're sick and they obviously wouldn't have had a significant checkup in some time.

True, but I don't see why they wouldn't have been as fine as Vernon and Brie if Crawford took care of them instead of kicking them out.

Originally Posted by Ninnuendo

Ben actually succeeds in protecting the group. He supplies the bandits and they stay away. Duck and Katjaa aren't his fault, they're Lillys (and by extension, Kennys).

No, Ben bought a temporary unstable peace but because he kept the deal a secret the bandits attacked as soon as the stolen supplies were found. Further, the bandits did attack before and were repelled due to the wall so thanks to the secret deal the group was lulled into a false sense of security. If they knew that the bandits were still an issue then the group could've planned to either stay and further strengthen the defenses or keep the deal going and get out ASAP. Either way, a major issue like the bandits require the entire group to be on the same page, that Ben thought he could handle it alone shows incredible arrogance and ignorance...a very dangerous combination. And blaming Kenny is silly, he wanted to leave at the soonest possible moment and if the group knew that the bandits were still an issue then I suspect that the rest of the group would either talk some sense into Lilly or leave her there and go with Kenny.

Originally Posted by Ninnuendo

You also can't really blame him for Carley or Doug, he tries in every way to get out of that situation without getting killed. Once again the blame lays with Lilly (and by extension, Kenny)

While Lilly was less stable after the death of Larry it's the discovery that someone is stealing medicine and supplies that send her off the deep end. This can be seen in the first conversation you and Kenny have with Lilly in Ep. 3, you actually have as close to a civil conversation with her as can be expected until she mentions that someone in the group is stealing from the group at which point she becomes extremely irritated, talks about how the number of people in the group that she can trust gets smaller by the day, and ends the conversation. Ben's secret deal is the root cause of Lilly losing it to extent that she kills Carley/Doug which makes Ben and Lilly equally responsible for their deaths, IMO.

Originally Posted by Ninnuendo

He's somewhat responsible for Chuck, but Chuck made that choice.

A choice that would've been completely unneeded had Ben just grabbed Clem's hand before running.

Originally Posted by Ninnuendo

As for Bree, yeah he's at fault but once again he's just doing what he's told. I blame Gary Whitta for that one.

C'mon, if you know Ben's so stupid that Kenny should've said, "Btw, don't take the hatchet that's barring the main door which is the only thing keeping the zombies around Crawford from storming in to kill us all", then can't you see why some people are too afraid of Ben's utter lack of common sense to have him around?

[Phoenix VII]

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

duck is dead because of bandits/zombies, katjaa killed herself, Carley/Doug are dead because of Lilly, Chuck/bree are dead because of zombies, mark is dead because of bandits/St johns and Larry is dead because of a heart condition.

ben didn't kill anyone

Directly, no but indirectly, yes.

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by Phoenix VII

Directly, no but indirectly, yes.

then we should blame Danny because he indirectly caused all of the interaction between ben and our group, if he didn't set the trap that got David we would either have never meet Ben, or he would have his teacher and his friend to keep him out of trouble

[Phoenix VII]

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

then we should blame Danny because he indirectly caused all of the interaction between ben and our group, if he didn't set the trap that got David we would either have never meet Ben, or he would have his teacher and his friend to keep him out of trouble

I think that's reaching a bit too far...sure, it's because of Danny that we were stuck with the greatest disaster magnet in the TWD universe for at least 2 episodes, but Ben isn't an inanimate object. If Ben made better choices at the motel, Savannah, and the Crawford raid, or simply sat in the corner staring at a wall then a whole lot of grief could've been averted. At most, both Danny and Ben gets the blame, but Danny is supposed to be a d-bag while Ben, for the most part is a good kid that wants to help but is so stupid and lacking in common sense that he can't do anything without causing a catastrophe.

[cormoran]

Originally Posted by Phoenix VII

Directly, no but indirectly, yes.

Might aswell blame the cop for crashing into the first zombie we saw then, had that not happened Lee might have ended up in completely different predicaments.

Indirect blame is pure bullshit. It's just an excuse for those too cowardly to blame those actually responsible even if they can't get justice from them.

[Phoenix VII]

Originally Posted by cormoran

Indirect blame is pure bullshit. It's just an excuse for those too cowardly to blame those actually responsible even if they can't get justice from them.

Sometimes that's true, and sometimes, like here, that's nonsense...take Crawford for example. Brie would still be alive if Ben didn't take the hatchet from the door. Instead, he took the hatchet, which leads to Brie's death and could very well have led to the deaths of everyone else, there's no way he can't be held responsible for that, IMO.

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by Phoenix VII

Sometimes that's true, and sometimes, like here, that's nonsense...take Crawford for example. Brie would still be alive if Ben didn't take the hatchet from the door. Instead, he took the hatchet, which leads to Brie's death and could very well have led to the deaths of everyone else, there's no way he can't be held responsible for that, IMO.

bree would still be alive if she had been paying attention and not wanted a vote on something that i felt she had no place being involved in voting on, why not blame the guy that died and became a zombie if he had not been an idiot and died he wouldn't have eaten bree, or we should blame lee for not telling everybody that the zombies want to come in the door and even if they go don't take the hatchet because it is there for a reason and they may come back

[kierano87]

To be honest you gota give it to ben... After all the moment he joined the group lilly and everyone gave him shit, he lost a teacher/friend already. A lot of people was against him because he was young and useless. He got crap from the bandits causing that deal and fight at the motor inn. Lilly killing doug/carley was his fault but wasnt intentional, still putting a lot of pressure on him futher on in the game. Poor kid...