Episode 5 Disappointment (vent here) **SPOILERS**

[Demonseed]

Originally Posted by MaroubraDave

Yes i'm not debating the fact we saw it coming (lee dying) i'm saying it's shit that you play a whole game only to end up dying no matter what you do. And what "option"? He dies whether you cut it off or not... WTF is the point. All that for stupid clem...

Are you for real??? It's called a story for reason, not written by you. As I said before, you want a different ending...write your damn story

[Ja1862]

and episodes 3,4 and 5 seem to take place in what like 4 days, ridiculous...

[Demonseed]

Originally Posted by dee23

No it's because Kirkman wrote the comics better than Telltale wrote the game. Rick's ability to survive is not purely luck, he has learned to survive in this world. Nothing he does seems out of place or wreckless. He's careful and he's learned from previous experiences. If Rick or any of the original Atlanta camp survivors were to be killed it wouldn't be a cheap kill by a lone zombie it will be at the hand of a human or the result of a herd overruning their area. With all the experience Lee had after 13 weeks of surviving this world he was caught of guard when wrestling a single walker. He was able to over come and get away from the reanimated Mr Parker when he was lying on his back (episode 2 on the truck)and the zombie was on top of him and he had less leverage but he couldn't overcome the zombie when he was standing up, why? Because Telltale wrote it that way.

I had no problem with key characters dying in the game it's the way they died. I think Lee should have been bitten when he was in the midst of the horde when he was fighting to get to the Marsh house. I think Carly should have died struggling with Lily for the gun as opposed to Lily shooting her point blank for calling her a bitch. I think Katjaa should have died by Duck reanimating and biting her when she was saying her goodbyes, she could have been cuddling him at the time. Kenny's death was one of the least realistic. He only has 1 bullet, he shoots 1 of the 10 or so zombies approaching him and tries to fight the rest by punching them when he had plenty of time to run up the ladder with Lee, again, he could have died in the zombie horde on the way to the Marsh house.

How dilusional must one be to accept Lee's death scene as being acceptable. Lets put this in context. He has collapsed in the midst of a zombie herd and weighs at least 154 ibs (11 stone if your British) yet Clementine is able to drag him into a shop/building without attracting attention from the countless zombies and she is not persued. In such a situation sudden movements would be enough to alert the walkers to the fact you are not one of them. What would have been more believable would have been if he escorted her to the safe zone then collapsed like the man did in the movie called "The Road" and she pointed out that the train was right there, cried and then shot Lee with Christa and Omid running towards her and crying over Lee's body, taking his body with them to give him a burial. Arriving by train to a building in a secluded area, having a burial and saying their final words. That ending would have also been true to the walking dead.

OMG are you asking for a different ending?? LOL.....too hilariuous....deal with it

[Evinshir]

Originally Posted by Demonseed

Are you for real??? It's called a story for reason, not written by you. As I said before, you want a different ending...write your damn story

It's called a GAME because it's INTERACTIVE. If you want just a good story, read a book or watch a film.

Seriously. Why do some people have a problem with the idea that you can have a good story AND have it be interactive and branching based on player decisions?

The sales pitch for this game was that the story was going to be shaped by the collaboration between TTG and the people playing it through the decisions that the players made.

That was the promise. That was what was constantly mentioned in interviews (along with statements that TTG was paying attention to the choices being made and altering the game based on forum feedback and those choices) and what, ultimately, was not delivered.

[Demonseed]

Originally Posted by Evinshir

None of which negates the complaint that cutting Lee's arm off had no impact on the story.

If anything, it makes the decision even less relevant and raises the question of why bother having the option there at all if it wasn't going to mean anything to the story?

That is the point dude...too late do do anything about it, deal with it

[dee23]

Originally Posted by ColtPeacemaker00

the biggest disappointment I have is that the episode was way to short and didn't seem to have alot of substance. it was like looking forward to Thanksgiving dinner for a month and finding out when you got there it was vegen., or opening presents on Christmas day and findind socks and underwear.

Excellent! I love the analogy. It sums up my thoughts exactly.

[Evinshir]

Originally Posted by Demonseed

That is the point dude...too late do do anything about it, deal with it

Really? That's the best you can come up with?

I'm arguing from the point of narrative - not "real life."

From the point of narrative, why bother having Lee cut off his arm. If it isn't doing anything to change the way the story plays out, what's the point? Decisions characters make in a story are meant to serve some purpose to the plot.

Cutting off his arm *should* have meant that someone else had to go to the bell tower and risk their life. It *should* have meant crossing the sign was near impossible and another route needed to be found.

It should not have meant absolutely nothing to events and actions that Lee faced after that decision.

As such - if cutting off his arm has zero narrative impact beyond a few cripple jokes, why bother having the option at all? It just makes the whole exercise pointless in a rather unsatisfying way.

IF it had meant that there would be a scene all about how he's turning anyway and how hard he had tried to live... then maybe. But the game really just goes "Lee cuts off his arm and that's all."

[dee23]

Originally Posted by ieatbrains

Very well said. "Choices are full of crap"

My thoughts exactly.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

TellTale should've dropped the whole walkie-talkie business. That ruined the story. It was absolutely masterful up until the end of episode 4. The whole tension between Lilly and Kenny, the struggle to survive and make tough choices on who gets to eat. Raiding places for supplies. Finding a boat. Taking shelter.

Then Clementine got kidnapped and Lee got bit. How conveniently doom and gloom.

Episode 3 should've erased the whole walkie-talkie concept and just stuck with the main message: survival. Maybe they should've ended the season with Clem finding her parents (in a more dramatic way, because episode 5's way was terrible) and have her kill them to defend Lee or something. Maybe Lee gets bit at the end of the season. I don't fucking know, all I know is the writers' efforts to make a effective villain failed and thus the entire plot fell to pieces before my eyes . The goal should've been just to survive with your group.

I was angry at campman, not for being a bad guy, but sucking so fucking hard at it. He's easily one of the lamest villains I've encountered in a game.

I need to stop thinking about episode 5, otherwise I'll hate the series. It's that bad to me.

I Agree 100%

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

TellTale should've dropped the whole walkie-talkie business. That ruined the story. It was absolutely masterful up until the end of episode 4. The whole tension between Lilly and Kenny, the struggle to survive and make tough choices on who gets to eat. Raiding places for supplies. Finding a boat. Taking shelter.

Then Clementine got kidnapped and Lee got bit. How conveniently doom and gloom.

Episode 3 should've erased the whole walkie-talkie concept and just stuck with the main message: survival. Maybe they should've ended the season with Clem finding her parents (in a more dramatic way, because episode 5's way was terrible) and have her kill them to defend Lee or something. Maybe Lee gets bit at the end of the season. I don't fucking know, all I know is the writers' efforts to make a effective villain failed and thus the entire plot fell to pieces before my eyes . The goal should've been just to survive with your group.

I was angry at campman, not for being a bad guy, but sucking so fucking hard at it. He's easily one of the lamest villains I've encountered in a game.

I need to stop thinking about episode 5, otherwise I'll hate the series. It's that bad to me.

I agree.

[dx1]

Originally Posted by Evinshir

Cutting off his arm *should* have meant that someone else had to go to the bell tower and risk their life. It *should* have meant crossing the sign was near impossible and another route needed to be found.

From a roleplayer's pov: You'd rather stand by and watch some nsc do the work instead of let your own character do it and feel the suspense?

Crossing that sign with only one hand to grip is trivial. You never climbed a ladder with a power drill in your hand? Okay, maybe you did not. But I bet it was not because of you held it between your teeth.

This TWD is interactive entertainment and the script respects that. Thanks for that. What works in novels won't work on stage won't work on screen won't work in dance performances won't work in video games.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by samipod42

Can everybody shut up about saying that the reason people hate the ending is because they're complaining about Lee dying?! I've seen this comment so many times but I'll say it again. It's because the CHOICES DIDN'T MATTER. I chopped off my arm. I fully accepted that Lee was going to die but I figured chopping off my arm could buy me some time and that might be exactly what I needed. What bothers me the most is the fact that what seemed to be the big choice of who comes with you and did you reveal the bite doesn't matter. The group finds out your bitten anyway and doesn't care and you go back to the mansion anyway and meet back with the group. I went with everyone and I thought that my adventure would be so much more intense than other people's, but it's exactly the same! I saved Ben's life, but his big "moment" was him standing up to Kenny. He still screwed up again in the end and got Kenny killed. Kenny's death in both situations felt forced. I hope he's still alive because it was ambiguous. Campan, or "The Man Who Masterminded the Game" was horribly disappointing. I always thought that decision was more of a moral dilemma to teach Clementine if stealing was wrong of if survival was more important. I didn't know it was the biggest decision in the game! Wait...No, it wasn't. He still kidnaps Clementine and hates Lee if you DON'T STEAL. I thought it was interesting how he chastised Lee for his bad decisions but you can tell they were really reaching for some of them. I thought most of my decisions were right and he said I was a bad guy because I brought Clementine to Crawford, I brought her to the dairy, and...that's it. I couldn't even decide one of those. The final episode should've been a big, "You brought these people. The story branches off this way and you get this moral dilemma instead of this one." I saw a guy on YouTube who does these playthroughs and I noticed before I played that this episode was only 9 parts, contrary to the other's 14 and 15 part lengths. I figured that was because of the massive replayability of this episode. Nope. The ONLY excuse for an ending as forced and as rushed as this is if we continue with this cast for season 2. I don't want that to happen but it's the only way. There should've been moments in this episode where if you made one decision, you wasted time, didn't get to Clementine, and see that she's already a walker. NOTHING in this episode changes. The only change that happens is if you save Ben or not and that's very minor. Believe it or not, I did like this episode. I just needed to vent. I thought the ending was very nice and heartbreaking but when the episode ended and the Walking Dead logo went up, I was taken aback. This episode was really short, as opposed to the much longer Around Every Corner, which had much more branching paths.

I agree.

[Pride]

Originally Posted by Evinshir

Really? That's the best you can come up with?

I'm arguing from the point of narrative - not "real life."

From the point of narrative, why bother having Lee cut off his arm. If it isn't doing anything to change the way the story plays out, what's the point? Decisions characters make in a story are meant to serve some purpose to the plot.

Cutting off his arm *should* have meant that someone else had to go to the bell tower and risk their life. It *should* have meant crossing the sign was near impossible and another route needed to be found.

It should not have meant absolutely nothing to events and actions that Lee faced after that decision.

As such - if cutting off his arm has zero narrative impact beyond a few cripple jokes, why bother having the option at all? It just makes the whole exercise pointless in a rather unsatisfying way.

IF it had meant that there would be a scene all about how he's turning anyway and how hard he had tried to live... then maybe. But the game really just goes "Lee cuts off his arm and that's all."

Come on... Lee was passing out and shit, it was crystal clear to me that the poison had already spread on his body. It was a no-brainer to me deciding not to cut it off, because from other Walking Dead titles I'd already known that for the whole cutting it off business to work, it would've had to be IMMEDIATELY after the bite.

Long story short , people who are knowlegeable of the TWD universe = didn't cut it off because they knew it wouldn't work
Newfags = Cut it off and get upset because it didn't work

I mean, it's not like any of the characters in the game had watched/read any walking dead stuff to automatically know it wouldn't change anything. That's why the choice was there.They had to try.

Much like if Ben hadn't told them that people turned regardless if they were bitten or not, the group would probably have died in that meat locker by zombie Larry. They're not all-knowing.

[Evinshir]

Originally Posted by dx1

From a roleplayer's pov: You'd rather stand by and watch some nsc do the work instead of let your own character do it and feel the suspense?

Actually.. Yes. Because I've built relationships with these characters and don't want to see them die. Isn't that kind of the whole point that it's important that characters lives are at risk?

Crossing that sign with only one hand to grip is trivial. You never climbed a ladder with a power drill in your hand? Okay, maybe you did not. But I bet it was not because of you held it between your teeth.

Actually losing your arm effects your balance. The human body is designed to operate a particular way and amputees have to spend a lot of time learning to reset their balance to account for lost limbs.

So crossing a ladder just moments after losing your arm? Not really smart. Especially when you have four more able bodied people standing right next to you.

This TWD is interactive entertainment and the script respects that. Thanks for that. What works in novels won't work on stage won't work on screen won't work in dance performances won't work in video games.

My point is that the script *doesn't* respect that. It tries to trick you into thinking it's being interactive, but when the plot doesn't change and none of your actions actually carry a narrative impact... then it might as well have just been a book, film, play or other more linear non-interactive experience.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by WoodMan

Yeah you could be right because she is still very young, would be an unusual protagonist, but it could be quite a different game, think no punching people and fighting off hordes with a meat cleaver stuff like Lee was doing but having to survive in other ways, it could be very interesting.

However, I was half expecting a scene at the end where you see a much older Clem, like 20 years old or something, only identifiable by her hat

That would have made a more likely Clem protagonist for a second game, and given the first game a happy ending because Lee's actions would have all been validated right there!

But if they did that the game would be set in the future ahead of the main cannon walking dead story branch therefore it would loose it's authenticity. The walking dead is set for 300 comic issues. After 100 issues Carl is still only 9. The game and the tv show need to take inspiration from the original source material to stay authentic other wise it would be like a what if comic issue like the comic where Hulk broke Supermans back or the Smalllville series which has no authenticity whatsoever and strays from the superman mythology. Why the game was so authentic was because it showed Rick's world from another survivors perspective in another part of the country during a similar time frame. If anything The next season could bring their calander more inline with Rick's by the time it's released and maybe show other places Rick has been like the Alexandria safe zone or the Hill top colony.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by DatDude

Sorry you feel that way. There are alot of reasons why I liked episode (i posted this on another forum):

I loved it. The parallelism to the first episode was great and the character interaction was also amazing. And of course, right when Ben redeems himself in the eyes of the group, he bites it. And Kenny too. When it prompted Lee to grab the bust I didn't, but my heart leaped in my chest when Kenny grabbed it. But when he threw it away, I knew that deep down the man cared for Lee. Man Kenny could be a bastard at times, but the second he left, I missed him.

And then we come to Omid and Christa. I really like both of their characters and figured they'd be the great successors to take care of Clem after Lee eventually succumbed. Plus I also noticed their like split versions of Lee, with Christa being black and Omid being the history professor. Okay maybe not so much.

Then we come to the stranger. To be honest, once I saw the station wagon outside, I knew that it'd be the owner inside. But I hated how he kept accusing you of things you did, without even knowing the story behind it. There are always two sides to a story, and he's only getting one. Also I guess I had a sort of loop hole with killing the stranger. I don't think Clem thinks he's dead, because she asked Lee whether or not it'd be okay to leave him. But I learned my lesson from the farmer bros back in episode 2; I wasn't going to kill a human (no matter how fucked up he was) in front of Clem again.

And finally we come to the end. The finale. The goodbye. At this point, I pretty much resigned myself to Lee's death and only looked toward's Clementine's future. Talking her through the escape was great and the sequence with the zombie guard had me in a panic. And when all was said and done and I knew she had to shoot Lee. She already saw her parents turned, and my word I can't believe how well she handled that. I didn't want her to have to see Lee turned as well so I knew there could only be one choice. And I know she'll come out stronger because of it. I made sure that she knew how to get to Omid and Christa, because I figured that telling her to go solo wasn't the right thing. She made it this far with the help of everyone, and if she never trusted any strangers, then she would've never met Lee. Plus by now, I think she's figured out the signs of when someone's riding the crazy train. My final words to her, even though it broke my heart, weren't "I'll miss you," even though I wanted to say that more than anything. But I didn't want this to be any harder than it had to be, so I just told her "Don't be afraid."

Those are my reasons...

I hear why you didn't like the episode..I just don't really care, and your coming as one of those "stop liking what I like" type of people. No offense.

I don't see how Ben redeemed himself by standing up to Kenny. The issue the group had with him is that he kept fucking up and costing them members of the group, or putting their safety at risk. Think of the big brother tv show if you have a house mate contestant that keeps failing tasks and causing your shopping budget to be cut or getting the whole group punished you would put him up for nomination every week until the public evicted him so you have a happier environment for your remaining time on the show. That is why the group had issues with Ben. Even Christa and Omid saw him as a liability and they had only been with him for a matter of hours in episode 4.

For Ben to have redeemed him self he would have needed to do more than use colourful language. He would have needed to step up physically and help the group solve problems. The only thing he contributed in his remaining moments was to give Lee an empty gun which Lee had dropped going up the attick stairs. After his big speech all he did was evoke sympathy when he told his life story and he clumsily fell to his death shortly after, failing to make a jump that was achieved by a one armed man and a guy with a gimpy leg. The irony is that he proved the group right again since his failure to make the jump led to Kenny's death even if Kenny chose to stay. So if Ben was never brought to the motor inn in the first place Larry would have been around longer because Kenny wouldn't of felt the need to kill him before we attempted cpr, Lilly wouldn't of had her brake down and killed Carly since he wouldn't of traded with the bandits,Duck wouldn't of been attacked in the motor inn, Katjaa may have been around longer, Chuck wouldn't have died trying to save Clementine. Do you see where i'm going with this. The guy was a curse to the group since they met him. With all those numbers of people who's death he inadvertently caused he still set the chain reaction that would bring down Kenny all this without redeeming himself of the very thing that the group accused him of being, a liability.

[dx1]

Originally Posted by evinshir

My point is that the script *doesn't* respect that. It tries to trick you into thinking it's being interactive, but when the plot doesn't change and none of your actions actually carry a narrative impact... Then it might as well have just been a book, film, play or other more linear non-interactive experience.

I didn't say it respects your choices. I said it is a script for a game. I said it isn't a script for a play or a movie or a guided sight seeing tour. I said it respects the fact that this TWD is interactive. When you just watch supporting acts do the climbing, where's your (inter)-activity? I would be bored to death if No Time Left was a 90 minute outro for my actions in the first 4 episodes.

Back to the climb a ladder with only one arm. I agree one feels a little clumsy climbing that ladder with a power drill in the other hand but I know not one person that needed to train that in order to drill some holes 6 meters (almost 18 of your transatlantician feet) over the ground. Lee didn't walk or flip-flopped to the bell tower, he climbed on his threes.

At last the first point: NSC and watching them, because they should not die. Maybe I get you wrong. If this is true then I'm sorry for it. You say you care for them and that's why one of them should go. Lee said something like he was the most expendable (because of his already gone body parts and the bite). I think he—like you—cared about these NSC and wanted to increase their chances. But now for real let's assumpt I misunderstood you here. That brings me back to the 90 minute outro which would have made me bored and angry enough to start a thread in the ttg forums. Some (me) liked to play in the tight borders of the narration in episode 5, others rather would have leaned back and watched the outcome of their previous choices. This is a matter of taste and I apologize for arguing that part.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Kitmit13

- There was constant tension to get to Clem on time and especially with the scene with Ben, trying to help him up when he was hurt. I found it had more tension then most episodes.

- I think Clem didn't fully believe they were alive herself and it somewhat gave her closure to see them dead. As sad as it may be she can now move on and no longer have to worry for them. Besides the fact that she didn't really have any time to get upset over it, especially being surrounded by zombies with a dying Lee.

- Plothole but still no reason to hate the episode :P

- Perhaps thats just you because that guy creeped the crap out of me, especially when he was speaking to his deads wife head in a bag. I honestly loved how they took something I figured to be so unimportant and bit me in the ass with it. When I saw the car outside the hotel I start to squirm because I had stolen from the car and I knew I was going to get hell for it. Really good writing in my opinion.

- Thats good in my opinion it IS based from the same universe, it's good they link back to it.

- Same as above also it's just logical...

- It was used to express the fact that there wasn't much time left for Lee, he couldn't stay bitten for long without becoming weak.

- I don't understand why that is a point, it wasn't used a lot.

- I guess you should of saved Bens life then. Would of made a lot better story. My Kenny sacrificed himself and used his last bullet on Ben so Ben wouldn't have to suffer (and Ben was really scared of becoming a walker), and stayed by him so Ben didn't have to die alone. Although I think it was silly for Kenny to not just shoot Ben and leave I think it was great that they finally came to a understand to point that Kenny would do that for him.

I'm glad you noticed the car out side the hotel. What surprises me is that hardly anyone finds it a tad odd that he was able to drive to Savannah and arrive before Lee who was on a train and drive around without drawing any walkers towards him. I think the sound of a car driving around should have been heared by the Lee's group, Vernon's people who were from Savannah and Molly who had a birds eye view point of the city for most of episode 4, considering the city was at times desserted and know one saw this bright red hatch back car.

In my play through Kenny didn't shoot Ben with his last shot, he shot one of the walkers, through the gun at the rest and tried to punch the approaching walkers.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Ja1862

I think they should have kept Larry around longer, he was the most entertaining guy and the story should have gone on a bit longer then it did.

Did ep3,4,5 take place in like 4 days???

Would have been better if it was over a longer period of time, (Lee and Clem getting even closer, him becoming a dad to her etc), No silly radioguy holding a grudge oh and did I say this already MORE LARRY!

Episode 3,4,5 were over 3 days. Episode 3 started in the afternoon they raided Macon, left motor inn, night fell, Carly died, Lee fell asleep and had nightmare about Clem turning into a zombie. In the morning they found the train. In the afternoon they met Christa and Omid. Episode 4 they arrived at Savannah minutes later in the afternoon, night fell and they went to Crawford. They arrived at the Manor in the morning. Lee had a nap, woke up to find Clementine gone, searched for her and got bitten. Episode 5 continues seconds later. Lee dies by the afternoon. What surprised me was in episode 4 when Lee was talking to Christa in the doctors office at Crawford and he said she hadn't been herself for a couple of days when he had only known her for a matter of hours when she was experiencing morning sickness.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by shedim

Seriously, this is bullshit. You have absolutely no clue about the infection, how it spreads, whnether it's a virus, bacteria or space magic. All you know is that people only turn if they die from whatever causes that don't damage the brain/head or when they get bitten.

Don't run around telling people that it's unrealistic if you cut a bitten person's arm off and they survive, when the setting is a zombie apocalypse where dead people magically reanimate and try to eat the living. It might come across a little bit ridiculous, you know?

Cut Lee's arm off -> Lee survives.
Don't cut his arm off -> Lee turns.

Making him turn regardless of what you do renders your choice useless and this is nothing but lazy writing, especially since you had absolutely no control about the way he got bitten. I was 100% sure there is going to be a walker near the walkie talkie and I would had grabbed the shovel or a stick, or simply approached the trash bin from the side where I can see what's there, but the game didn't let me. This is just lame. They sacrificed Lee in order to make the story as emotional as possible and as far as I can see they succeeded in making you guys cry rivers. While the story wasn't bad for a movie or a comic, it was terrible for a video game where your experience is supposed to be tailored by how you play. It simply wasn't at all and I was very disappointed that they didn't manage to make choices truly matter, not even in the final episode! I find the ending lacking. It's just lame and lazy.

Personally, I didn't like the plot from episode 3 onwards when they killed Carley no matter what you did, but I could live with it. However, killing Lee in a cutscene and give the players absolutely no choice to get the ending they wanted, the ending that is truly tailored to their gameplay, well that's just lazy and lame. Dunno why you folks play video games but I play them because they're interactive. If I just want somebody to tell me a story where I my decisions have absolutely ZERO impact on I'll go read a book or watch a movie.

I agree 100%