Ben didnt really prove himself in the end.

[Viser]

Originally Posted by Chrizza

Oh, no, I agree with putting Larry down. I just think it's funny Ben can be linked to yet another death.

No, I meant that if Ben hadn't told them about turning no matter how you die, Larry would've turned without them expecting it to happen. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have been able to handle a guy his size without at least expecting him to turn.

And no, It wasn't confirmed that Larry is alive. They meant for that scene to be ambiguous, it would be pretty weird if they said "yup, Larry was alive.", and if you are indeed quick enough you'll realize his mouth moves but that's it, he doesn't open his eyes or anything.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by cormoran

You can link everyone to every death, that's the problem with the whole "Ben killed everyone" line of thinking.

Take Lee for example, from the very beginning would the cop have crashed into that walker and died if Lee hadn't killed the senator and needed to be driven to the prison? and as a result would any of what happened afterwards have happened without Lee there to influence things?

Care to fully explain how everyone is linked to every death?

1. If Ben never traded with the bandits, Duck would've never got bitten and Katjaa would've never killed herself and Kenny would still have something to live for.
   
2. If Ben had just confessed to the secret trading, Lilly wouldn't have shot Carley or Doug. And Lilly would've never abandoned the group or be abandoned by the group.
   
3. If Ben had saved Clementine, Chuck would've never had to intervene and get cut off by the group only to die later in the sewers.
   
4. If Ben didn't take the axe from the doors in Crawford, Brie would still be alive. I didn't like her much, though.
   
5. If Ben had just told Kenny to shoot him or give him the gun in the alley, Kenny wouldn't have sacrificed himself.

Ben's linked directly to majority of the deaths in this game. Get over it. I'm sick of people seriously trying to defend him. If you like him, fine, but that doesn't mean he's not an extremely useless character. There's a reason some people hate Ben more than Larry AND Campman.

[cormoran]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

Care to fully explain how everyone is linked to every death?

1. If Ben never traded with the bandits, Duck would've never got bitten and Katjaa would've never killed herself and Kenny would still have something to live for.
   
2. If Ben had just confessed to the secret trading, Lilly wouldn't have shot Carley or Doug. And Lilly would've never abandoned the group or be abandoned by the group.
   
3. If Ben had saved Clementine, Chuck would've never had to intervene and get cut off by the group only to die later in the sewers.
   
4. If Ben didn't take the axe from the doors in Crawford, Brie would still be alive. I didn't like her much, though.
   
5. If Ben had just told Kenny to shoot him or give him the gun in the alley, Kenny wouldn't have sacrificed himself.

Ben's linked directly to majority of the deaths in this game. Get over it. I'm sick of people seriously trying to defend him. If you like him, fine, but that doesn't mean he's not an extremely useless character. There's a reason some people hate Ben more than Larry AND Campman.

I already linked Lee. I'm just as sick of people like you making insane links to ben and the death of the every character in the game.

Lets go through your hilariously poor conspiracy theory laden examples:

If Ben never traded with the bandits they'd have attacked earlier, as they eventually did, and could have killed EVERYONE.

If ben had confessed Lilly would have shot him, Doug would have still put himself in the way and been killed, carly still thinks she's a scared little girl. Lilly killed Doug/Carly, no one else.

Chuck made the decision to intervene, he could have just stood by too. Alternatively, we've been teaching Clem to take care of herself for four episodes, it's as much her fault for freezing up.

If Brie had pushed one of the many objects in front of the door instead of using her own body like an idiot she'd still be alive.

Kenny made the decision to kill himself, nothing Ben said would have changed that. Any idiot could have just shot Ben and left long before those walkers made it, Kenny wanted to die.

People like you blame a woman for being raped, instead of the rapist who raped her. Zombies killed Duck, Katjaa killed herself, Lilly/Zombies killed Doug/Carly, Zombies killed Chuck, Zombies killed Brie, Zombies killed Kenny. End of story.

[Sutinen]

Originally Posted by shedim

He got Kenny killed. As I expected.

Ben's killcount:
-Duck
-Katjaa
-Carley/Doug
-Chuck
-Brie
and if you didn't drop the idiot in episode 4
-Kenny

He didn't get Kenny killed. Kenny himself chose the death.
I think he had enough and saved him from the pain.

Originally Posted by xXNinjaScoreXx

Ben also "killed" Larry...

Kenny - "Remember what Ben said, gotta destroy the brain...

Holy shit, now that I think about it, he has gotten everyone killed (Since Ep. 2). Indirectly of course. The first victim was Larry and the bandit attack caused 3 more deaths.

[Viser]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

Care to fully explain how everyone is linked to every death?

1. If Ben never traded with the bandits, Duck would've never got bitten and Katjaa would've never killed herself and Kenny would still have something to live for.
   
2. If Ben had just confessed to the secret trading, Lilly wouldn't have shot Carley or Doug. And Lilly would've never abandoned the group or be abandoned by the group.
   
3. If Ben had saved Clementine, Chuck would've never had to intervene and get cut off by the group only to die later in the sewers.
   
4. If Ben didn't take the axe from the doors in Crawford, Brie would still be alive. I didn't like her much, though.
   
5. If Ben had just told Kenny to shoot him or give him the gun in the alley, Kenny wouldn't have sacrificed himself.

Ben's linked directly to majority of the deaths in this game. Get over it. I'm sick of people seriously trying to defend him. If you like him, fine, but that doesn't mean he's not an extremely useless character. There's a reason some people hate Ben more than Larry AND Campman.

Okay, I shall try.

1. If Ben never traded with the bandits, they would've probably killed him and attacked the group a lot earlier, and who knows, perhaps with even more people, which would most likely end in the deaths of everyone. And keep in mind that the bandits only attacked when they did because Lee removed the supplies from the place they were supposed to pick it up, and he only did that because Lilly was paranoid and found out someone was stealing supplies from them, and she only went paranoid because Kenny crushed her dad's head in front of her.
   
   
2. If Ben had just confessed to the secret trading, Lilly would have shot him in his face or kicked him out of the group because she was pretty unstable. And I'm pretty sure Carley and Doug would have stood up for Ben anyways, because like Doug said: "Evidence or not, this isn't right!". Who knows what an unstable woman would have done then when people disagreed with her?
   
   
3. If Ben had saved Clementine, Chuck would've never had to intervene and get cut off by the group only to die later in the sewers. That's mostly true. But that also falls on Lee, why wasn't he there protecting her? Why wasn't she close to him? There are a lot of questions you gotta ask yourself.
   
   
4. If Ben didn't take the axe from the doors in Crawford, Brie would still be alive. That's kind of true, that was a pretty stupid move on Ben's part. But as much as Ben's confession had a horrible timing, the timing on Kenny's vote to kick him out was just as horrible, which kept everyone in the room for more time than they should've stayed there, and ended up in Brie's death.
   
   
5. If Ben had just told Kenny to shoot him or give him the gun in the alley, Kenny wouldn't have sacrificed himself. Okay, it was Kenny's decision to stay back (keep in mind his weight also broke the balcony), I really can't understand why people blame Ben here. It's not his fault he fell. He was probably scared as fuck, the way he says "OH GOD, DON'T LET THEM GET TO ME" shows how he didn't want to die there.

Seriously, blaming everything on only one character is even more annoying than 'people defending him'. He is indeed linked to many character's deaths, but so are a lot of other people, including Lee. The main reason most people started hating him is because of Carley and Doug, who stood up for him, by the way.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by cormoran

I already linked Lee. I'm just as sick of people like you making insane links to ben and the death of the every character in the game.

Lets go through your hilariously poor conspiracy theory laden examples:

If Ben never traded with the bandits they'd have attacked earlier, as they eventually did, and could have killed EVERYONE.

If ben had confessed Lilly would have shot him, Doug would have still put himself in the way and been killed, carly still thinks she's a scared little girl. Lilly killed Doug/Carly, no one else.

Chuck made the decision to intervene, he could have just stood by too. Alternatively, we've been teaching Clem to take care of herself for four episodes, it's as much her fault for freezing up.

If Brie had pushed one of the many objects in front of the door instead of using her own body like an idiot she'd still be alive.

Kenny made the decision to kill himself, nothing Ben said would have changed that. Any idiot could have just shot Ben and left long before those walkers made it, Kenny wanted to die.

People like you blame a woman for being raped, instead of the rapist who raped her. Zombies killed Duck, Katjaa killed herself, Lilly/Zombies killed Doug/Carly, Zombies killed Chuck, Zombies killed Brie, Zombies killed Kenny. End of story.

WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH. Hold the fucking phone. Don't you dare accuse me of saying that it's a woman's fault if she's raped. I'm someone who's volunteered at women's shelters, so by you having the audacity to even say that depresses me. That's probably the most nonsensical and offensive analogy I've ever heard. We're talking about a fictional character in a video game, calm the fuck down and chill with the ludicrous accusations.

I don't even wanna debate with you, I'm sorry if you felt offended at my comments, but it's just a fucking game and I was just openly discussing it with you. No need to say that I condone rape and that I blame victims.

And that comparison doesn't even work, I would have to be blaming Carley for her death rather than Ben.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by Viser

Okay, I shall try.

1. If Ben never traded with the bandits, they would've probably killed him and attacked the group a lot earlier, and who knows, perhaps with even more people, which would most likely end in the deaths of everyone. And keep in mind that the bandits only attacked when they did because Lee removed the supplies from the place they were supposed to pick it up, and he only did that because Lilly was paranoid and found out someone was stealing supplies from them, and she only went paranoid because Kenny crushed her dad's head in front of her.
   
   
2. If Ben had just confessed to the secret trading, Lilly would have shot him in his face or kicked him out of the group because she was pretty unstable. And I'm pretty sure Carley and Doug would have stood up for Ben anyways, because like Doug said: "Evidence or not, this isn't right!". Who knows what an unstable woman would have done then when people disagreed with her?
   
   
3. If Ben had saved Clementine, Chuck would've never had to intervene and get cut off by the group only to die later in the sewers. That's mostly true. But that also falls on Lee, why wasn't he there protecting her? Why wasn't she close to him? There are a lot of questions you gotta ask yourself.
   
   
4. If Ben didn't take the axe from the doors in Crawford, Brie would still be alive. That's kind of true, that was a pretty stupid move on Ben's part. But as much as Ben's confession had a horrible timing, the timing on Kenny's vote to kick him out was just as horrible, which kept everyone in the room for more time than they should've stayed there, and ended up in Brie's death.
   
   
5. If Ben had just told Kenny to shoot him or give him the gun in the alley, Kenny wouldn't have sacrificed himself. Okay, it was Kenny's decision to stay back (keep in mind his weight also broke the balcony), I really can't understand why people blame Ben here. It's not his fault he fell. He was probably scared as fuck, the way he says "OH GOD, DON'T LET THEM GET TO ME" shows how he didn't want to die there.

Seriously, blaming everything on only one character is even more annoying than 'people defending him'. He is indeed linked to many character's deaths, but so are a lot of other people, including Lee. The main reason most people started hating him is because of Carley and Doug, who stood up for him, by the way.

You make some good arguments. I'll admit, the Kenny one is a stretch. I recant that one. I still stick by the others, but I'll like to address your first point about the bandits. Lee says the bandits gave them hell. I think they could've held their own at least until the RV was fixed. And, as far as I knew, no one had been injured when the bandits attacked. I'm assuming Ben heard the whole story about what happened the the St. Johns, were Mark was attacked. Bandits attacked them despite having a deal, so Ben should've known they couldn't be trusted.

I don't like Ben because he's dead weight as a character. I saved him because I didn't support the Crawford, but seriously, what's the appeal of him? Are you just defending him to defend him?

[Viser]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

You make some good arguments. I'll admit, the Kenny one is a stretch. I recant that one. I still stick by the others, but I'll like to address your first point about the bandits. Lee says the bandits gave them hell. I think they could've held their own at least until the RV was fixed. And, as far as I knew, no one had been injured when the bandits attacked. I'm assuming Ben heard the whole story about what happened the the St. Johns, were Mark was attacked. Bandits attacked them despite having a deal, so Ben should've known they couldn't be trusted.

I don't like Ben because he's dead weight as a character. I saved him because I didn't support the Crawford, but seriously, what's the appeal of him? Are you just defending him to defend him?

It's probably due to the fact I can relate to him, being a teenager myself. And I don't know how you feel about this, but the way everyone treats him just isn't right. Sure he can't pull his own weight, but he is trying his best and he's not a bad person, he's just a bit dumb at times.

I defend him because in his shoes I'd probably be just as scared, and I'd want someone to stick by me like my Lee did for him. And like I said, I don't think it's fair to put the blame of those things solely on him, because if you look at the situation as a whole, you'll see that these stuff happen because of multiple reasons, not only because of Ben. At least that's how I see it. And I don't really see a reason for playing the blame game, so I'm able to forgive those characters easily for making those mistakes when I try to look at the situation from their angle.

[Mornai]

I always assumed the group was on high alert since the bandits attacked constantly every day(arrow shafts in walls), but when Ben started trading with them, the attacks stopped and the group let their guard down. Then, when the bandits attacked suddenly and out of the blue, they weren't expecting it because they hadn't attacked for several days.

At the very least, i think Ben gave the bandits the element of surprise. Sure, they might have still led a full raid like they did, but the group would be expecting it and would be more prepared for it.

I liked Ben myself, but even he admits that it's his fault.

[rachellouise85]

If Lee had found the stash, left it and just observed who went to collect, they would have found out about the bandits too. Or if he watched out for who went to put it out there the next time. There are quite a few what if's that could change a situation.

[cormoran]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH. Hold the fucking phone. Don't you dare accuse me of saying that it's a woman's fault if she's raped. I'm someone who's volunteered at women's shelters, so by you having the audacity to even say that depresses me. That's probably the most nonsensical and offensive analogy I've ever heard. We're talking about a fictional character in a video game, calm the fuck down and chill with the ludicrous accusations.

I don't even wanna debate with you, I'm sorry if you felt offended at my comments, but it's just a fucking game and I was just openly discussing it with you. No need to say that I condone rape and that I blame victims.

And that comparison doesn't even work, I would have to be blaming Carley for her death rather than Ben.

That's fine, I can assume you have nothing valid to respond with. The analogy is valid no matter how much it offends you, you're blaming the victims instead of those who actually commited those acts, it's sickening.

You may have volunteered at womens shelters, good for you...

I lived in one.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by cormoran

That's fine, I can assume you have nothing valid to respond with. The analogy is valid no matter how much it offends you, you're blaming the victims instead of those who actually commited those acts, it's sickening.

You may have volunteered at womens shelters, good for you...

I lived in one.

I would've went back and forth with you until you accused me of condoning rape. Like I said, it's a game, completely different tone than real life. People wished Kenny would die, does that mean they support murder and death in real life? No. People killed characters in the game, does that mean they will kill in real life? No. So me connecting other characters' deaths to Ben means absolutely nothing when it comes to my stance on real life issues.

That's unfortunate.

[aperose]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

Pre-Episode 5 Ben supporters "Ben's gonna redeem himself, all you Ben haters will see."

Instead, ben falls to his death, which causes Kenny to get killed. And thus saving absouley no one. And in my playthrough, he lost the boat to Vernon. So he was a useless character from the start, his antics in Episode 3 moved the plot along, but not in a good direction.

Post-Episode 5 Ben supporters "It's not about redemption, he apologized and was forgiven by Kenny, that's enough."

Sure, whatever.

Hahaha EXACTLY! Thank you for pointing out that psychology. I find it hard to believe that all these holier than thou "look I saved Ben" people didn't MOSTLY do it because they thought he would redeem himself in some grand way. When that didn't happen (which, good on TTG - would've been very out of character), they changed their spiel.

[zeke10]

Originally Posted by aperose

Hahaha EXACTLY! Thank you for pointing out that psychology. I find it hard to believe that all these holier than thou "look I saved Ben" people didn't MOSTLY do it because they thought he would redeem himself in some grand way. When that didn't happen (which, good on TTG - would've been very out of character), they changed their spiel.

I saved him cause most of us would have probably done similar things in the same scenario

[cormoran]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

I would've went back and forth with you until you accused me of condoning rape. Like I said, it's a game, completely different tone than real life. People wished Kenny would die, does that mean they support murder and death in real life? No. People killed characters in the game, does that mean they will kill in real life? No. So me connecting other characters' deaths to Ben means absolutely nothing when it comes to my stance on real life issues.

That's unfortunate.

No you wouldn't have, you simply have nothing to respond with, you know your stance on the matter of Ben is asinine at best and so you attempt to avoid the entire issue by getting all hot under the collar like it means something.

You blame the victims in this game, you blame the victims in real life. Don't give me that "it's different" crap, it shows the type of person you are. I don't see you blaming the bandits for attacking or coercing Ben to cooperate, I don't see you blaming Lilly for shooting Carly/Doug, no, you blame Ben.

I know why too, you're too much of a coward to blame those you can't see brought to justice, but Ben, he's still around, you can punish him. You don't care if you blame the right people or not.

[aaron1290]

Umm... its ben fault kenny died because ben fell and kenny went tosave him...

[zeke10]

Originally Posted by aaron1290

Umm... its ben fault kenny died because ben fell and kenny went tosave him...

You say that like ben wanted to fall

[Kaserkin]

I never expect Ben to redeem himself. I wanted him to survive. From the bell tower onwards, I was sure he wouldn't. Determinants character don't go far.

[aaron1290]

Originally Posted by zeke10

You say that like ben wanted to fall

maybe if ben hurried up and didnt stand there for ages it would of stayed

[CrazyandProud]

Why does he have to?