Ben didnt really prove himself in the end.

[CrazyandProud]

Originally Posted by Viser

Okay, I shall try.

1. If Ben never traded with the bandits, they would've probably killed him and attacked the group a lot earlier, and who knows, perhaps with even more people, which would most likely end in the deaths of everyone. And keep in mind that the bandits only attacked when they did because Lee removed the supplies from the place they were supposed to pick it up, and he only did that because Lilly was paranoid and found out someone was stealing supplies from them, and she only went paranoid because Kenny crushed her dad's head in front of her.
   
   
2. If Ben had just confessed to the secret trading, Lilly would have shot him in his face or kicked him out of the group because she was pretty unstable. And I'm pretty sure Carley and Doug would have stood up for Ben anyways, because like Doug said: "Evidence or not, this isn't right!". Who knows what an unstable woman would have done then when people disagreed with her?
   
   
3. If Ben had saved Clementine, Chuck would've never had to intervene and get cut off by the group only to die later in the sewers. That's mostly true. But that also falls on Lee, why wasn't he there protecting her? Why wasn't she close to him? There are a lot of questions you gotta ask yourself.
   
   
4. If Ben didn't take the axe from the doors in Crawford, Brie would still be alive. That's kind of true, that was a pretty stupid move on Ben's part. But as much as Ben's confession had a horrible timing, the timing on Kenny's vote to kick him out was just as horrible, which kept everyone in the room for more time than they should've stayed there, and ended up in Brie's death.
   
   
5. If Ben had just told Kenny to shoot him or give him the gun in the alley, Kenny wouldn't have sacrificed himself. Okay, it was Kenny's decision to stay back (keep in mind his weight also broke the balcony), I really can't understand why people blame Ben here. It's not his fault he fell. He was probably scared as fuck, the way he says "OH GOD, DON'T LET THEM GET TO ME" shows how he didn't want to die there.

Seriously, blaming everything on only one character is even more annoying than 'people defending him'. He is indeed linked to many character's deaths, but so are a lot of other people, including Lee. The main reason most people started hating him is because of Carley and Doug, who stood up for him, by the way.

1. So he couldn't have told the others about the plan and possibly avoid the entire mess? The reason they attacked was because Lee took the supplies from the agreed trading location. By not telling the others of the plan he unknowingly helped cause the attack. It's possible that the others would have agreed with Ben in the first place and avoided that attack, or at the very least get the others to be more prepared.

2. Which all could have been avoided had he informed the group about his earlier plan instead of keeping it a secret. No need for anyone to stand up to him and get shot by an unnerved women.

3. It doesn't fall on Lee since he was busy fighting zombies to notice that she was behind. Ben was right next her, and could have saved her. There is no excuse for Ben's action.

4. It does not matter what Kenny did because it is also a result of Ben's failure to mention the fact that he helped out the bandits and indirectly causing them to surprise attack the group which led to the death of Kenny''s family. Also had Ben not removed the ax in the first place none of that would have happened.

5. Agree that it was Kenny's decision. You can't really blame Ben for this one.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by cormoran

No you wouldn't have, you simply have nothing to respond with, you know your stance on the matter of Ben is asinine at best and so you attempt to avoid the entire issue by getting all hot under the collar like it means something.

You blame the victims in this game, you blame the victims in real life. Don't give me that "it's different" crap, it shows the type of person you are. I don't see you blaming the bandits for attacking or coercing Ben to cooperate, I don't see you blaming Lilly for shooting Carly/Doug, no, you blame Ben.


I know why too, you're too much of a coward to blame those you can't see brought to justice, but Ben, he's still around, you can punish him. You don't care if you blame the right people or not.

I just defended my positions with another poster who was much more polite than you. Just sayin'. And I even agreed with him on one point and recanted my statement. Ben isn't to blame for Kenny's death.

The thread was discussing Ben's connections to deaths. At least, that's what the posters were doing at the time. I simply outlined them. Of course Lilly killed Carley, but to ignore the motivations behind that is absurd. The thread is about Ben, so his actions and consequences will be highlighted. Just like Campman could blame Lee for talking his family's food and indirectly killing them, we can highlight Ben's actions as well.

It is different. Thanks for equating real life with video games. You basically put video games and rape in the same league as one another. Congratulations.

My opinion on a piece of fiction doesn't reflect who I am as a person. I enjoy horror (Walking Dead for example) that doesn't mean I enjoy people being terrorized in real life.

How is Ben a victim, exactly? Please, explain that to me.

[Kaserkin]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

How is Ben a victim, exactly? Please, explain that to me.

Well nobody cared about him, he tried to do his best (even if it wasn't much) and nobody gave him some kind of recognition, Lilly and Kenny wanted to kill him,... Shall I continue?

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by Kaserkin

Well nobody cared about him, he tried to do his best (even if it wasn't much) and nobody gave him some kind of recognition, Lilly and Kenny wanted to kill him,... Shall I continue?

I backed Ben up. I fed him food, I constantly talked to him, and I even defended him against Lilly along with Carley. I supported him. I voted to keep him. I saved him. I brought him with me at the end of Episode 4. Lee and Clem were Ben's biggest supporters, so you can't act like people didn't care.

Kenny and Lilly really had nothing against Ben until Lilly suspected him of dealing with the bandits, which turned out to be true. Kenny didn't truly hate Ben until Ben choose to tell Kenny about the bandits and how it affected Katjaa and Duck.

In relation to Carley, Doug and Duck, who's deaths he indirectly caused. How is he a victim?

That's like me setting up a faulty bridge, someone walking across it only to fall to their deaths. How am I the victim?

[Kaserkin]

How are you a victim? Anyway Ben is a teenager, a particular insecure person in a particularly insecure period of life. And this is without zombies and psycho bitches with guns. Except for Lee and Doug/Carley, nobody supported him. You are right, he screws up way too much, but making him a flawed character in contrast with other people makes him believable.
Btw, the hatchet and confessing to Kenny at the worst moment possible was stupid even for him

[RainbowSprinklz]

Originally Posted by cormoran

That's fine, I can assume you have nothing valid to respond with. The analogy is valid no matter how much it offends you, you're blaming the victims instead of those who actually commited those acts, it's sickening.

You may have volunteered at womens shelters, good for you...

I lived in one.

I agreed with your points originally, you can spend all day pointing out characters who could have indirectly killed someone. I do think that if a walker kills you, even if someone else causes it, its a walker that kills you. But seriously....your comment that you made about him was so out of line. You don't know that, and the analogy is ridiculous. Remember it is just a game that we all are talking about, and there is no reason to be mean to someone else over it.

[lucidity02]

Originally Posted by cormoran

People like you blame a woman for being raped, instead of the rapist who raped her. Zombies killed Duck, Katjaa killed herself, Lilly/Zombies killed Doug/Carly, Zombies killed Chuck, Zombies killed Brie, Zombies killed Kenny. End of story.

Whoa. Shit. I didn't see this part. You need to chill the hell out with the ad hominem attacks about someone's character.

[dustpuffs]

Not all of us that saved Ben were holier than thou types that said he would redeem himself. I said before episode 5 that I had saved Ben in Crawford, and I wondered what horrible death awaited him in 5. I never thought he would redeem himself, but I didn't think he wasn't worth saving. It isn't as though he ran around slitting people's throats in their sleep or something.
He is a kid. His brain isn't even fully formed. He has lived through his worst nightmare for months prior to when we meet him. He has seen friends and mentors die, has not had contact with his family, has most likely been running and hiding with very little food and sleep, all of which affect his judgement. He did not see the consequences of his actions the way others would. Neither, for example, does the teenage boy trying to "surf" on top of a buddy's car; he thinks it will be a blast, the neighbors think the idiot will end up roadkill.
It does not mean that he couldn't learn from his mistakes, and if given the chance, grow up to be a useful member of any group. So I didn't take that chance away from him.

[Rock114]

Well, Ben did at least do SOMETHING. He DID prove he wasn't a coward by standing up to Kenny. Kenny, the man who's family died because of him, the man who on several occasions wanted Ben to die and probably would have dropped Ben without a moment's hesitation if he were in Lee's place at Crawford. He made Kenny see Ben's side of things and finally realize how terrible he'd been acting toward Ben. And in the end, Kenny actually forgave the kid who was responsible for his family's death. He even elected to try and save the kid even when it seemed impossible, and knew it would very well likely result in his death as well.

And, if you notice, during the mansion siege Ben actually sounds confident. He's probably afraid, yeah, but he has control of it. He doesn't let the fear dictate his actions because he knows that everyone else is counting on him to step up and help get everyone out of the mess they were in. He actually keeps a cool head, kills walkers (possibly his first) and even saves Lee's gun after it fell. I think that he redeemed himself by actually being a productive member of the group, not panicking, and pulling his weight. Hell, he doesn't even seem to be begging for Kenny and Lee to save him in the alley, he just doesn't want to get ripped apart. Sure he didn't save everyone's lives, or kill a million walkers, but him turning his act around and gaining his confidence was enough for someone like Ben.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by Kaserkin

How are you a victim? Anyway Ben is a teenager, a particular insecure person in a particularly insecure period of life. And this is without zombies and psycho bitches with guns. Except for Lee and Doug/Carley, nobody supported him. You are right, he screws up way too much, but making him a flawed character in contrast with other people makes him believable.
Btw, the hatchet and confessing to Kenny at the worst moment possible was stupid even for him

Oh no, no, don't get me wrong, Ben is a very believable character. But that doesn't mean I have to like him and sympathize with him, lol. I think Ben's one of those love or hate characters. Kinda like Lilly, who I love but people hate.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by RainbowSprinklz

I agreed with your points originally, you can spend all day pointing out characters who could have indirectly killed someone. I do think that if a walker kills you, even if someone else causes it, its a walker that kills you. But seriously....your comment that you made about him was so out of line. You don't know that, and the analogy is ridiculous. Remember it is just a game that we all are talking about, and there is no reason to be mean to someone else over it.

Thanks mate. I'm just here for a debate, I didn't want it to get so serious.

[CarScar]

I feel bad for Ben. Everyone in the group thought he was a joke and the few people who actually cared for him he either got them killed (Carley/Doug, Katjaa) or were children (Clementine). The bell scene actually kind of implies that he either thinks people hate him so much that they want him dead or he wishes for himself to die because he doesn't want to get anyone else killed. It's really sad, I feel for the kid, I'd probably act similar to him in a zombie apocalypse situation. That's why I saved him.

Still he should have confessed to what he did. He was lying to his friends, yes he had friends at that point. Carley liked him, probably felt bad for him, I'm guessing Doug would feel the same way. Katjaa was probably motherly towards him and I have a sneaking suspicion that Clem had a tiny crush on him. I get it, he was scared of Lilly but as Carley said:

"I think people should know... Some people might be pissed but it'll be a farcry if they don't hear it from you... There will never be a good time, but there will also be a lot of bad ones. And this doesn't seem like one of them."

[puzzlebox]

Hey guys - please keep this discussion relevant to the game, not personal comments on what other forum members may or may not be like in real life.

[FarmerJoe]

Wouldn't Ben becoming the hero and redeeming himself by saving some one's life or even sacrificing his life so another could live be too much of a "saving Ben is the good/right choice and/or path"? I don't think that's what the walking dead is about.
I saved Ben because I didn't want him to die(I did tell him to stay behind later) not because I hoped that the game would reward me later(which it shouldn't) or that I was taking the "paragon" path.