Carley was a bitch

[plaqueconspiracy]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

Carley was a bitch because of her last words. That really didn't help the situation. You call someone a scared little bitch then turn you head away from them? Lilly killing Carley was fucked up, but Carley should've take more... preventive measures.

Not really. Ben traded with the bandits, the same bandits that attacked the St. Johns regardless of the fact they had a deal with them. Those bandits weren't trustworthy.

Lee himself said Lilly trained them, what more evidence do you need? Other than Mark, the likelyhood of anyone else knowing how to operate high powered rifles and handguns is slim.

Murder someone because they called you a scared little bitch? What kind of a scared little bitch do you have to be to do that?

[TheNNerdGamer]

Originally Posted by Zeruis

I wouldn't call Carley a bitch. I would call her "not the smartest person around". She was obviously threatening a mentally unstable woman at the worst time possible. She was just stupid that she thought that she could diffuse the situation by calling a Lilly a bitch. Dumb move. Carley was one of my favorite characters, though. Her last words were to stand up for Lee.

one of the smartest things I've seen in the forums

[TheNNerdGamer]

Originally Posted by plaqueconspiracy

Murder someone because they called you a scared little bitch? What kind of a scared little bitch do you have to be to do that?

the kind of scared little bitch who can't take ONE FUCKING STUPID INSULT
one insult and Lilly lost it, i was like WTF

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by TheNNerdGamer

Lilly would have killed Ben if Carley would've shut up

result: you never would've known who was giving supplies to the bandits

That probably would've been best for Kenny's sake.

[CarScar]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

If it wasn't for Lilly sniping, everyone would've been executed at the motel by the bandits.

To be fair, I think she is the ultimate reason why the bandits attack. Aside from being too stubborn to leave the Travelier Motel, there's a good chance she's the reason why Ben didn't tell anyone about what he did. She was always screaming at someone, over exaggerating at everything (no offense), and Ben admitted to being scared of her. This is all speculation, but if Lilly wasn't so... frightening, maybe Ben would not have been so afraid to tell everyone his secret?

She did a good job defending the motor inn during the raid but you have to admit Carley did pretty good herself. Headshotting two bandits and then killing multiple zombies. She also didn't have the luxury of being inside a room when the bandits attacked. Regardless, Lilly was really badass during the raid. Sneaking out back and then silently sniping the bandit leader like a boss.

Also no one was going to be executed by the bandits, Lee diffused the situation remember?

"Well, I suppose we got to hash out some terms then."

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by darknessofheart

There is no difference and that's my point. I'm not defending Kenny over his decision to kill Larry or any of Lee's possible decisions. I will say that I saw more rational behind those decisions, but I am not defending any of the similar actions. Lilly shoots Ben and everyone wins? No, because there was absolutely no evidence that Ben did anything wrong at that point and does not alter the fact that Lilly murdered someone based off a nagging feeling.

Many fans themselves thought Ben had nothing to do with it and wouldn't even know of Ben's actions had he not told Lee directly. The group would still see Lilly as an unstable person who killed without a clear reason and needed to be taken care of just like she was when she shot Doug or Carly.

I think it was easy to tell Ben did it without his confession. I defended him, but I had a hunch it was him. Think about it.

1. He gets nervous and defensive if you question him on the flashlight. He also breaks down under Lilly's interrogation, not enough to confess, but he's pretty broken.
2. Clementine's pink chalk was taken. Ben has a close relationship with Clementine
3. Ben's clumsy. Explaining the broken flashlight.
4. Lilly didn't make the deal, she was the one who brought it up.
5. Kenny wanted to leave, so it would've been useless for him to make a deal with bandits.
6. Katjaa isn't
7. Lee obviously didn't do it. We're Lee, lol. Lilly even says we didn't do it.
8. Carley or Doug didn't do it considering their loyalty to your for saving them Especially Carley. Lilly really doesn't blame Doug.

[TheNNerdGamer]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

That probably would've been best for Kenny's sake.

wasn't that the whole point Lilly started the fight...to find who made the deal with them

[plaqueconspiracy]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

You make some good points. Lilly was going to kill someone, but she would've shot Ben. If Carley would've just shut up, everyone would've won, including Carley fans.

Kenny killed Larry. Lee can kill Ben. What's the difference?

So Carley should've just sat there and let Lily kill Ben? What kind of bitch move is that? Anyway, if that would've happened I bet Carley (or anyone else) would've shot Lily or at least left her there with Ben

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by CarScar

To be fair, I think she is the ultimate reason why the bandits attack. Aside from being too stubborn to leave the Travelier Motel, there's a good chance she's the reason why Ben didn't tell anyone about what he did. She was always screaming at someone, over exaggerating at everything (no offense), and Ben admitted to being scared of her. This is all speculation, but if Lilly wasn't so... frightening, maybe Ben would not have been so afraid to tell everyone his secret?

She did a good job defending the motor inn during the raid but you have to admit Carley did pretty good herself. Headshotting two bandits and then killing multiple zombies. She also didn't have the luxury of being inside a room when the bandits attacked.

Also no one was going to be executed by the bandits, Lee diffused the situation remember?

"Well, I suppose we got to hash out some terms then."

Regardless, Lilly was really badass during the raid. Sneaking out back and then silently sniping the bandit leader like a boss.

Lilly did want to stay, but even if they all wanted to leave, they couldn't. The RV, remember? Kenny was working on it between Episodes 1 and 3. So they latest they could've left was Episode 3.

Ah, I forgot that. I remember defusing it myself in my first playthrough. But I have to go back to the St. John example, they attack regardless of a deal. So they couldn't be trusted.

[CarScar]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

I think it was easy to tell Ben did it without his confession. I defended him, but I had a hunch it was him. Think about it.

1. He gets nervous and defensive if you question him on the flashlight. He also breaks down under Lilly's interrogation, not enough to confess, but he's pretty broken.
2. Clementine's pink chalk was taken. Ben has a close relationship with Clementine
3. Ben's clumsy. Explaining the broken flashlight.
4. Lilly didn't make the deal, she was the one who brought it up.
5. Kenny wanted to leave, so it would've been useless for him to make a deal with bandits.
6. Katjaa isn't
7. Lee obviously didn't do it. We're Lee, lol. Lilly even says we didn't do it.
8. Carley or Doug didn't do it considering their loyalty to your for saving them Especially Carley. Lilly really doesn't blame Doug.

I think the biggest clue was his immediate response following the raid:

"... I'm sorry."

I bet you Carley thought it was Ben too, I mean who else would she have thought it was? No way she would think it was Lee, Kenny is in the clear because he had his family with him, and Lilly was the one who instigated the search. Ben is the only one. Carley also never said it wasn't him when she was defending him, she only said you shouldn't treat him so horribly and that she should stop torturing him and all of that. It's likely everyone thought Ben was the most likely candidate.

Originally Posted by Doctanian

Lilly did want to stay, but even if they all wanted to leave, they couldn't. The RV, remember? Kenny was working on it between Episodes 1 and 3. So they latest they could've left was Episode 3.

Ah, I forgot that. I remember defusing it myself in my first playthrough. But I have to go back to the St. John example, they attack regardless of a deal. So they couldn't be trusted.

Good point. I would have probably left right after I got the RV working though, perhaps they were lulled into a false sense of security because the bandits didn't attack for a while thanks to the deals?

They definitely would have attacked again in the future, I don't think they would have attacked right away though, not after Lee's superb convincing skills ("if you kill us right here how are you all going to get supplies? You need us!"). It would have made them safe for the time being at least, just wait for them to leave then get on that RV and gtfo of there.

[darknessofheart]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

I think it was easy to tell Ben did it without his confession. I defended him, but I had a hunch it was him. Think about it.

1. He gets nervous and defensive if you question him on the flashlight. He also breaks down under Lilly's interrogation, not enough to confess, but he's pretty broken.
2. Clementine's pink chalk was taken. Ben has a close relationship with Clementine
3. Ben's clumsy. Explaining the broken flashlight.
4. Lilly didn't make the deal, she was the one who brought it up.
5. Kenny wanted to leave, so it would've been useless for him to make a deal with bandits.
6. Katjaa isn't
7. Lee obviously didn't do it. We're Lee, lol. Lilly even says we didn't do it.
8. Carley or Doug didn't do it considering their loyalty to your for saving them Especially Carley. Lilly really doesn't blame Doug.

Most of those reasons were only known to us and Lee however, and were not known in Lilly's perspective. Lilly even blames Lee in some playthroughs, implicating that Carley and him did it together and even threatens Lee that she will just assume it was him if he doesn't turn up anything (she lost it big time).

She literally went from one person to the next to see who would crack first and if they didn't crack or someone offended her, someone ends up dead. Killing someone based off circumstantial evidence is not exactly a good call and even if everyone knew Ben did it, we shouldn't just shoot him in the head to call it even.

I gave Lilly the benefit of the doubt when she killed Carley and she ends up stealing the RV and leaving the entire group and two children to potentially rot in the wilderness. She was clearly looking out for herself in the third episode and killed not to protect the group or help others, but to vent out her anger and frustration or because Carley gave her a crude statement.

This whole thread was to point out that had Carley not said anything, everything would've been fine, but I think it's pretty clear nothing was going to go right with Lilly wound up the way she was. Either way, someone dies and Lilly either screws everyone further by stealing the only viable source of transportation at that point (as no one was sure if the train could work) or she is left behind and we get to keep that secondary option.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by TheNNerdGamer

wasn't that the whole point Lilly started the fight...to find who made the deal with them

Yeah, but because if Lilly would've killed Ben, we never would've known for sure if it was him. We didn't know for sure until Ben told us. Kenny was struggling, but remember how happy and hopeful he was when Clementine found the boat? That scene was so beautiful by the way.

All of that was crushed when Ben confessed. He went right back into depressed mode.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by CarScar

I think the biggest clue was his immediate response following the raid:

"... I'm sorry."

I bet you Carley thought it was Ben too, I mean who else would she have thought it was? No way she would think it was Lee, Kenny is in the clear because he had his family with him, and Lilly was the one who instigated the search. Ben is the only one. Carley also never said it wasn't him when she was defending him, she only said you shouldn't treat him so horribly and that she should stop torturing him and all of that. It's likely everyone thought Ben was the most likely candidate.

Good point. I would have probably left right after I got the RV working though, perhaps they were lulled into a false sense of security because the bandits didn't attack for a while thanks to the deals?

They definitely would have attacked again in the future, I don't think they would have attacked right away though, not after Lee's superb convincing skills ("if you kill us right here how are you all going to get supplies? You need us!"). It would have made them safe for the time being at least, just wait for them to leave then get on that RV and gtfo of there.

Never thought of that. Extremely likely. Maybe Carley just defended Ben because she thought he was only a kid.

Exactly. I'm sure that's how even the bandits got in. Everyone was on their guard when the bandits were attacking them. Lilly was lookout in Episode 2 and Ben's on lookout in Episode 3. On top of that, Mark and Larry were making the fence even stronger.

That's actually an excellent point. The bandits did need Lee and the group, because they were the ones going back into Macon and raiding local shops for supplies.

[DreadMagus]

Carley was awesome and took no shit.

Lilly was awesome until she came down with the batshit crazy after he dad died.

#TeamCarley
#TeamLilly

[Rock114]

So Carley was a bitch for standing up for herself and some poor, scared kid she thought was innocent? If anyone's a bitch it's Lilly for pulling the gun in the first place. There was no reason to kill anyone in that scene. No evidence. Just a guess by a crazy woman and a loaded gun. I tried to support Lilly after Episode 2 because I felt like shit for helping Kenny in the meat locker, and I truly feel bad for Lilly as well. Nobody deserved to lose their family like that. I'm not saying Kenny and Lee were completely right in my playthrough when they killed Larry, but they at least had a good reason. They might have murdered Larry, they may have prevented a corpse from coming back. But Lilly definately killed Carley in cold blood just for talking back. There is nothing right about that.

[CarScar]

I really miss Carley.

[CharmingBirch]

I really liked Carley as well, but she was kind of asking for it at the end. She got caught up in Lilly playing whodunit and wanted to tell her off about harassing herself and Ben, but forgot that:

A) Lilly had just lost her father and was mentally unstable at this point,

and

B) She was armed.


Wouldn't call her that word, I think she was far from it. She was very sweet, and had she and Lee lived they might have made a good couple/surrogate parents for Clem. She just got a little too bold with Lilly and paid the price.

[CarScar]

Originally Posted by CharmingBirch

I really liked Carley as well, but she was kind of asking for it at the end. She got caught up in Lilly playing whodunit and wanted to tell her off about harassing herself and Ben, but forgot that:

A) Lilly had just lost her father and was mentally unstable at this point,

and

B) She was armed.


Wouldn't call her that word, I think she was far from it. She was very sweet, and had she and Lee lived they might have made a good couple/surrogate parents for Clem. She just got a little too bold with Lilly and paid the price.

I don't think Carley would think Lilly would take it that far though, I don't think anyone did... Carley and Lilly were in the group together longer then even Lee and Kenny, there had to be some trust there... too bad it wasn't a two way street with Lilly.

[Charles_K]

Originally Posted by plaqueconspiracy

If you think about it... It's all the cop's fault. If he had payed any fucking attention to the road they wouldn't have crashed and Lee would've never ended up in the drug store with Carley and Lily.

#FUCKTHEPOPO

And then Lee would end up in the comics as a character from the Prison chapters while Clem starves to death or ends up in the hands of walkers. Yay!!!

[CharmingBirch]

I don't think Carley would think Lilly would take it that far though, I don't think anyone did... Carley and Lilly were in the group together longer then even Lee and Kenny, there had to be some trust there... too bad it wasn't a two way street with Lilly.

True, but I don't think it mattered to Lilly at that point. She didn't trust anyone (with the exception of Lee if you had him aid Lilly in giving Larry CPR) and felt she had nothing to lose. She even said so.

Had Carley been the one to pull the walker from under the RV and it was Kenny giving her a piece of his mind, I strongly believe she would have killed him. Maybe more so, after what happened with Larry.

If Ben had a backbone that early on and said something similar to what Carley said, it would have been him.