Carley was a bitch

[YamiRaziel]

This thread is so funny.

Now let's start.
1. Why would Carley think Ben is innocent? Lee says there is a traitor -> Carley believes Lee -> it obviously isn't Lilly since she told Lee -> It has to be Kenny, Katjaa or Ben. Kenny and Katjaa is a highly unlikely choice since they have a kid and they would know better than to deal with bandits. Plus Kenny is hotheaded and it wouldn't fit his personality. Katjaa is also too passive for such a thing.
Now again, why Carley would think that Ben (the newest guy, who isn't exactly bright) is innocent? Oh I forgot, she isn't very smart and logic is definitely not her strongest side *cough* batteries *cough*.
2. Lee says there is a traitor in the group who "puts his insidious shit above everybody else" and she decides it is the perfect time to speak back? For 3 episodes she's been avoiding any kind of tough decisions and discussions but 1 week after Larry's murder she decides to talk back. I mean, c'mon.
3. I got to admit I thought it was Carley. I assumed her stupidity is just a clever act to deceive us. Point taken. Never underestimate stupidity.

Now, people like to attack Lilly for all sorts of things. That's funny, really, given the fact that she snaps right after your favourite Kenny kills her father.
But of course it is okay for him to drink and grieve in ep.4, I mean he lost his family...we should be sympathetic.
Ben would've probably confessed hadn't Kenny turn the group into a Crawford one in ep.2. Yeah, Ben was afraid of Lilly, that's because he didn't know what Kenny did. Nobody did.

Lilly was sitting in her room? How dare she.... It's not like in ep. 2 Kenny didn't sit on the couch while Lilly was on guard, Lee was distributing food and Mark (who just came back from hunting) was fixing the fence with Larry. Of course not, I guess that's so different.
It is not also that Lilly saves the group and is the only one to react to the bandit attack. Nah, I'm so happy that Kenny (who was again sitting on his couch) was the one to save your asses.

To conclude I will quote Lilly from ep. 2 "Gambling with your family's lives is pretty dumb if you ask me."
You wanted to leave the motor inn? That horrible Lilly didn't let you?
Oh, yes, Savannah was so AWESOME. It's not like almost everybody died or anything...
I guess THE BOAT was worth the risk.

Even back in ep. 2 I was convinced that boat plan is the worst plan I've ever heard. I'm really surprised anyone in their right mind expected that boats would be waiting for them...

[CarScar]

Sorry if this comes off as rather long, I'm bored and have nothing to do. Please don't interpret this as hate though, just expressing my opinion as you did. Feel free to disagree, it's all rather opinionated anyways.

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

This thread is so funny.

Now let's start.
1. Why would Carley think Ben is innocent? Lee says there is a traitor -> Carley believes Lee -> it obviously isn't Lilly since she told Lee -> It has to be Kenny, Katjaa or Ben. Kenny and Katjaa is a highly unlikely choice since they have a kid and they would know better than to deal with bandits. Plus Kenny is hotheaded and it wouldn't fit his personality. Katjaa is also too passive for such a thing.
Now again, why Carley would think that Ben (the newest guy, who isn't exactly bright) is innocent? Oh I forgot, she isn't very smart and logic is definitely not her strongest side *cough* batteries *cough*.

Okay, it's obvious you're not Carley's biggest fan. I know you're a big fan of Lilly so is it because she's the reason why Carley was shot and people tend to insult her because of that? I'd tell you that's an silly reason to hate a character but I'd probably react the same way as you in your situation.

Anyways, the batteries was just Carley's moment of shame. I don't really blame her, her mind must not have been in the right place... the world just went to hell and she watched multiple co workers killed. As she says "I'm a mess right now." She seems to agree with you that she was acting like an idiot as she constantly ridicules herself for her foolish behavior in later episodes. Even if weren't the case, Telltale just wanted a way for Lee to fix the radio in a simple enough way that players would be able to find out what to do without much trouble. Regardless Carley, past that point, has usually acted rather mature and intelligently. I liked her insight, e.g. that we shouldn't just abandon people unless the situation is "suicidal", that the motor inn, while nice, isn't the ideal location as it could go to shit at any moment, that drama should be avoided at all cost, and that Lee should tell others about his past before Lilly has the chance to tell others in her own special way. You have every right to disagree with me here though, it's a rather opininated thought.

I know it's speculation but Carley never actually says "Ben didn't do it" while defending him, which is rather interesting. All she did was plead for Lilly to stop "torturing" him.

"Fuck evidence! Stop treating him like this!"

2. Lee says there is a traitor in the group who "puts his insidious shit above everybody else" and she decides it is the perfect time to speak back? For 3 episodes she's been avoiding any kind of tough decisions and discussions but 1 week after Larry's murder she decides to talk back. I mean, c'mon.

Carley had to talk back, Lilly was throwing around false accusations about how she betrayed the group. She isn't just going to sit there and take it. Even when Lilly switched sights to Ben, she isn't just not going to help out her friend. Look, I know you hate Carley but you can't deny that she's very loyal to her companions. She isn't just going to sit there and let Ben be "tortured".

Also I don't know if you've noticed this or not but Carley actually usually partakes in group discussions, she isn't quiet about her opinion and isn't afraid to speak her mind, she isn't as passive as Doug. That is not a bad quality to have. She made her decisions, that Lee should lead the group because all Kenny and Lilly are doing is creating drama, something that isn't necessary, that they shouldn't just abandon other survivors, et certera. And there's no way Carley would have known Lilly would shoot her. Carley and Lilly always hated each other, yes, but they've been together for so long. Carley probably trusted her and would definitely not think she'd be shot just because of a baseless accusation and a couple of insults.

3. I got to admit I thought it was Carley. I assumed her stupidity is just a clever act to deceive us. Point taken. Never underestimate stupidity.

Man you really don't like Carley. Tell me, when has she ever acted like an idiot outside of the battery incident?

Now, people like to attack Lilly for all sorts of things. That's funny, really, given the fact that she snaps right after your favourite Kenny kills her father.
But of course it is okay for him to drink and grieve in ep.4, I mean he lost his family...we should be sympathetic.

I like Lilly, a lot, but what she did too Carley was ridiculous. I get it, she just lost her dad, she deserved time to grieve, she did need more sympathy. Thing is people wont give sympathy to a person who's just acting unreasonable and, kind of, crazy. She's suppose to be a leader, people look up to her and she needed to act more mature and charimastic, despite whatever tragedies they face. That's what it means to be a great leader, just look at Rick Grimes. She deserved to grieve as much as Kenny but at least Kenny didn't go nuts and shoot people over baseless speculation. Yeah he hated Ben enough to leave him behind but at least he was 100% certain he was the traitor. Kenny lost a lot more too... not saying losing a dad isn't painful but no one, and I repeat NO ONE, should have to watch their kid die. It only made it worse with Katjaa... Not saying I like Kenny or anything, I actually hated him and sided towards Lilly mostly. I just feel bad for him.

Ben would've probably confessed hadn't Kenny turn the group into a Crawford one in ep.2. Yeah, Ben was afraid of Lilly, that's because he didn't know what Kenny did. Nobody did.

No offense but I think Lilly's way of running things was a little bit more Crawfordy. She refused to let others into the group, even if the people have kids, because, as she puts it, "there just more mouths to feed." Which is a reasonable reason sure, but it's still screams CRAWFORD.

Anyways, in my honest opinion I thought Ben didn't tell the group because Lilly scared him. She is one scary, badass chick that's for sure. His fear of Lilly was definitely right too considering she would have shot Ben if Carley was not there.

It is not also that Lilly saves the group and is the only one to react to the bandit attack. Nah, I'm so happy that Kenny (who was again sitting on his couch) was the one to save your asses.

Lilly was a badass during the raid. A really, really big badass. But still, she had the luxury of being indoors and thus preventing her from being caught. Unlike everyone else.

To conclude I will quote Lilly from ep. 2 "Gambling with your family's lives is pretty dumb if you ask me."
You wanted to leave the motor inn? That horrible Lilly didn't let you?
Oh, yes, Savannah was so AWESOME. It's not like almost everybody died or anything...
I guess THE BOAT was worth the risk.

Even back in ep. 2 I was convinced that boat plan is the worst plan I've ever heard. I'm really surprised anyone in their right mind expected that boats would be waiting for them...

I agree, the boat plan was idiotic and was run on "hopeful dreams" but still the motor inn was also quite idiotic. With bandits so close and Macon running out of supplies the motor inn became unsuitable and they needed to move.

[darknessofheart]

I don't really see anyone on this particular thread praising Kenny's actions over Lilly's, perhaps just stating that there were more rational logic behind his as opposed to hers'. Kenny was a real asshole at times and made bad decisions as well. Kenny deserved blame for his fair share of screw ups, but that does not alter the fact that Lilly became a loose cannon. Did she have a right to be a wreck? Of course, but someone like that should not be in a leadership position because it can send them over the edge and that's exactly what happened to Lilly.

Defending Ben wasn't really solely a matter of defending his innocence, but getting Lilly to lay off because she was becoming too unhinged. From day one, Lilly has been at odds with Carley so there was obviously some tension there, but no one expected Lilly to just go off like that and kill a fellow companion at point blank range for a mild insult. Again, I'm not saying Kenny is better than Lilly and so forth, but Lilly did not go about things the right way and was unfit to be a leader after the incident with her father because she let her emotions take control of her and override any form of logic.

She was a great character and definitely had reasons to weep, but she lost her sense of logic in this episode and it shows throughout her various, potential actions. If she had it her way, Lee and Clem would've been killed in the first episode, so many players aren't exactly too thrilled about her. I liked her as a character though, but I can't deny that she was going to kill someone regardless of what Carley did and that is a testament to her flaying efforts as a leader.

[YamiRaziel]

Nah, don't get me wrong, I don't hate Carley. I just think she acted stupid at times.

Now let me response in order.

I cannot agree Carley stepped up in any major discussion. Most of what she did was actually "I'm not gonna be part of this" while leaving. Yes, she never spoke her mind to anyone but Lee. When Kenny and Lilly are quarreling, she one of the first to give up. In ep. 3 she comes with "Are you fighting again, guys" not contributing with anything to the discussion. What I am saying is that a person who almost never speaks up decides to speak back in the worst possible scenario.
Now I know that Lilly was quite on edge, but instead of Carley trying to help find the traitor she made it look like as if Lilly was the bad guy there. Carley knew Lee was fond of her and that made her say those bold things. Which is dumb, really. First of all Lilly was really unstable at that point and armed. Secondly, there was a fucking traitor amongst them, and they couldn't have known how lame the reason for that would be. What if Ben was actually a part of the bandit group? They couldn't have known for sure.
I also think that there was a bit of rivalry between Lilly and Carley for Lee's approval. Lilly knew there was a traitor and so did Lee. When Lilly accused Carley, she decided to fight back Lilly instead of proceed with the traitor search. Both of them didn't act as they should, but I would expect Carley to understand the period Lilly is going through. Maybe we could blame a little bit of that on Lee too. He should've shared what happened in the meat locker. I think people would've been much more supportive and careful if they knew.

Also, I appreciate Carley's humanity with "Stop torturing him" but I do believe that finding the traitor is much more important.
It is good to protect people, but when you keep doing it instead of thinking for your own, then we have a problem.
We all appreciate that Carley saved our asses back in ep. 1 but still it was a dumb move that put her group in danger.

Now about Kenny losing his family... that is different. His family died in an accident, they weren't killed by Lee or Lilly. It is entirely different to have a close person die by someone you've trusted. Lilly felt betrayed by Kenny/+Lee ... how were she to feel secure when the two man overpowered her and killed her father because it was "survival".
If it were Carley, I'm pretty sure she would feel vulnerable too.

As for Kenny and his loss, I call it karma. My Lee said "What if it was your family, what if it was Katjaa or Duck" and he said "It won't happen, not if I have anything to do with it".
Well it did happen, and he was such a hypocrite. He was in denial for the most part and risked all our lives because he couldn't accept his son is bitten. Karma's a bitch.

As for Lilly being more Crawford... well I can't agree with that. She didn't like strangers, true, because she had her group to care for. She was thinking of her own, and once a person became a part of the group she didn't kick them because they might become a liability. She didn't kick Ben so that there would be more food for her right? She was against accepting him because her group was starving. She was against accepting Lee and Kenny, because they were men (who later overpower her) and they could be dangerous (some were, apparently). Again, it's looking for her own, nothing like Crawford.
Kenny is more of a Crawford guy, because he's willing to kill or ditch people who he thinks are a detriment/danger to the group (Larry, Lilly, Ben). He was also ready to let that poor girl get eaten in ep.3 so that he could escape more easily.

Yeah, Lilly were scary, because people had no idea what happened in the meat locker. Kenny made sure she looks like the bad insane guy all the time, which was in fact not true at all.

As for Lilly, she was bad ass until the very and even beyond that. She makes mistakes, deals with unpopular decisions, but still she tries to stick to her own.

The motor inn wasn't the best place, but it was something. Not everybody is fortunate to find a prison. Hitting the road in hopes you will find a better place that is not taken by others is again gambling with your lives.

[darknessofheart]

Everything within this reality is a gamble, especially places like the Motel because they are nothing more than targets. Not to implicate Lilly in anyway, but had they left the motel, Ben would've never betrayed them and everyone might have still been alive for a much longer amount of time. It was a ticking time bomb of a place where most of the cast died because of events occurring there or around it; Mark, Larry, Katjaa, Duck, Carly, ect.

There is no such thing as a safe place in the Walking Dead and everything is a gamble in some sense, but there were better places to be found than the motor inn. A trend in the series is the idea that the living are far worse than the dead, and the Motor Inn was surrounded by scores of sickos. The bandits were going to attack one way or another eventually and a place with just walkers would be far better than a place with walkers and living.

I think comparing Kenny to Crawford is a bit of a weak argument because you could go back and forth between him and Lilly. Lilly wanted to leave the group outside of the drug store to die, she shot someone dead simply because of her emotions or a hunch, and she steals the RV if you give her the benefit of the doubt and knocks you out the door even if you did everything for her and wanted to go. She strands everyone out in the wilderness to potentially die, along with two children, taking the only viable mode of transportation at the time.

I'm not defending Kenny, but continuously bringing in other character's faults and actions to support the failings of another clouds the true issue and does not alter that character's own mistakes. It obviously boils down how everyone felt towards the particular character during his or her playthrough and understanding their justifications for their actions.

I think what most people here are saying is that while Lilly had good intentions, was definitely a badass and a tough as nails leader, she lost her composure and let her emotions get the better of her. Regardless of people's outlook on Carley and her various traits, Lilly had no right to kill her or attempt to kill Ben simply because she doesn't like what they said because a leader needs to do better than that.

[CrazyandProud]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

Nah, don't get me wrong, I don't hate Carley. I just think she acted stupid at times.

Now let me response in order.

I cannot agree Carley stepped up in any major discussion. Most of what she did was actually "I'm not gonna be part of this" while leaving. Yes, she never spoke her mind to anyone but Lee. When Kenny and Lilly are quarreling, she one of the first to give up. In ep. 3 she comes with "Are you fighting again, guys" not contributing with anything to the discussion. What I am saying is that a person who almost never speaks up decides to speak back in the worst possible scenario.
Now I know that Lilly was quite on edge, but instead of Carley trying to help find the traitor she made it look like as if Lilly was the bad guy there. Carley knew Lee was fond of her and that made her say those bold things. Which is dumb, really. First of all Lilly was really unstable at that point and armed. Secondly, there was a fucking traitor amongst them, and they couldn't have known how lame the reason for that would be. What if Ben was actually a part of the bandit group? They couldn't have known for sure.
I also think that there was a bit of rivalry between Lilly and Carley for Lee's approval. Lilly knew there was a traitor and so did Lee. When Lilly accused Carley, she decided to fight back Lilly instead of proceed with the traitor search. Both of them didn't act as they should, but I would expect Carley to understand the period Lilly is going through. Maybe we could blame a little bit of that on Lee too. He should've shared what happened in the meat locker. I think people would've been much more supportive and careful if they knew.

Also, I appreciate Carley's humanity with "Stop torturing him" but I do believe that finding the traitor is much more important.
It is good to protect people, but when you keep doing it instead of thinking for your own, then we have a problem.
We all appreciate that Carley saved our asses back in ep. 1 but still it was a dumb move that put her group in danger.

Now about Kenny losing his family... that is different. His family died in an accident, they weren't killed by Lee or Lilly. It is entirely different to have a close person die by someone you've trusted. Lilly felt betrayed by Kenny/+Lee ... how were she to feel secure when the two man overpowered her and killed her father because it was "survival".
If it were Carley, I'm pretty sure she would feel vulnerable too.

As for Kenny and his loss, I call it karma. My Lee said "What if it was your family, what if it was Katjaa or Duck" and he said "It won't happen, not if I have anything to do with it".
Well it did happen, and he was such a hypocrite. He was in denial for the most part and risked all our lives because he couldn't accept his son is bitten. Karma's a bitch.

As for Lilly being more Crawford... well I can't agree with that. She didn't like strangers, true, because she had her group to care for. She was thinking of her own, and once a person became a part of the group she didn't kick them because they might become a liability. She didn't kick Ben so that there would be more food for her right? She was against accepting him because her group was starving. She was against accepting Lee and Kenny, because they were men (who later overpower her) and they could be dangerous (some were, apparently). Again, it's looking for her own, nothing like Crawford.
Kenny is more of a Crawford guy, because he's willing to kill or ditch people who he thinks are a detriment/danger to the group (Larry, Lilly, Ben). He was also ready to let that poor girl get eaten in ep.3 so that he could escape more easily.

Yeah, Lilly were scary, because people had no idea what happened in the meat locker. Kenny made sure she looks like the bad insane guy all the time, which was in fact not true at all.

As for Lilly, she was bad ass until the very and even beyond that. She makes mistakes, deals with unpopular decisions, but still she tries to stick to her own.

The motor inn wasn't the best place, but it was something. Not everybody is fortunate to find a prison. Hitting the road in hopes you will find a better place that is not taken by others is again gambling with your lives.

How does that give a right for her to kill another person. She has no evidence, but she still is willing to kill a person. I don't care how sad or traumatic of an experience she had with her father. HERE WAS NO REASON TO SHOOT AND KILL A PERSON. Finding a traitor is all good and dandy, but she was going on a witch hunt. She had no evidence, all she did was throw accusations. There is no excuse. Also, the girl in episode 3 was going to die regardless of anything. You think that Lily would have went out of her way to save her? She would have done the exact same thing as Kenny. Considering this is the same person who wanted to throw out an injured person? Staying at the motor in was not something. It was a slow death trap. You had bandits in the wood, and food was running out. Had they stayed there any longer they would have started to death. Going on the road is a lot better idea since you will continue to find supplies.

What it was Kenny and his wife who were part of the bandits? Who knows? I guess we should shoot them. Maybe it was Lee, I mean who knows? I guess we shoot him as well. Why not kill everybody since it seems she doesn't care about finding the truth. I don't see why she can become the judge, jury, and executioner.

[CarScar]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

Nah, don't get me wrong, I don't hate Carley. I just think she acted stupid at times.

That's really nice to here! The problem with Carley is that she doesn't have the survival instincts that Lilly has... honestly I think that's her best quality though. It's so refreshing seeing a character with a lot of humanity left, ya know? I also really like the stark difference between Carley and Lilly too, it's very interesting seeing characters with completely different views butt heads with one another.

I cannot agree Carley stepped up in any major discussion. Most of what she did was actually "I'm not gonna be part of this" while leaving. Yes, she never spoke her mind to anyone but Lee. When Kenny and Lilly are quarreling, she one of the first to give up. In ep. 3 she comes with "Are you fighting again, guys" not contributing with anything to the discussion. What I am saying is that a person who almost never speaks up decides to speak back in the worst possible scenario.

Good point, she only really confides in with Lee. It would have been better if she was willing to speak her mind, say the things she says to Lee, to the group as well. It's possible she doesn't because it would just create more drama though, I mean if she told the group that she wanted Lee to take charge Lilly and Kenny would just erupt. There isn't really a point in trying to argue with those two anyways, god knows those two are quite stubborn.

Now I know that Lilly was quite on edge, but instead of Carley trying to help find the traitor she made it look like as if Lilly was the bad guy there. Carley knew Lee was fond of her and that made her say those bold things. Which is dumb, really. First of all Lilly was really unstable at that point and armed. Secondly, there was a fucking traitor amongst them, and they couldn't have known how lame the reason for that would be. What if Ben was actually a part of the bandit group? They couldn't have known for sure.

Lilly was acting like the bad guy in this situation though. She needed to just calm down. Admittably she might not have been capable of doing so as she reached her "breaking point" if you will. Every negative emotion she kept bottled up probably just erupted at that point. And when she shot Carley, releasing all that pent up rage she just had this look on her face that just said "what have I done..?"

It's not like Carley didn't want to deal with the situation though, she just didn't want to approach the situation as Lilly did. I mean, what if Ben wasn't the traitor? That's mean you just "tortured" this young man for no reason. She wanted to approach the situation more rationally.

"We need to look at the facts. We'll calm down, eat, and deal with it then.

Although it's always possible if they didn't deal with it now, because of the group was in the dark in regards to what the traitors motive was, the traitor could have killed, or endangered the group. Although that isn't something someone like Carley would consider because she's loyal and trusting towards Ben. In that way Lilly was right (which is why she's in a higher place of power, she has those survival instincts), but Carley was still right that the situation was getting out of hand and everyone needed to calm down.

Carley did simply try to calm the situation down (she really didn't get angry until Lilly brought up her family, I think that struck a nerve or something), simply pleading Lilly to stop being so harsh with her accusations. Like I said before though, Lilly is stubborn. Carley got impatient and gave that oh so famous line of hers. You can't really blame Carley with getting impatient though, Lilly was being quite unreasonable and wasn't listening to anything Lee nor Carely was saying. It might have been best to just stay quiet though, but it's not in her nature. She's friends with Ben and couldn't stand watching him in pain. It could be argued that it was stupid but, usually, most noble causes are "stupid."

I also think that there was a bit of rivalry between Lilly and Carley for Lee's approval. Lilly knew there was a traitor and so did Lee. When Lilly accused Carley, she decided to fight back Lilly instead of proceed with the traitor search. Both of them didn't act as they should, but I would expect Carley to understand the period Lilly is going through. Maybe we could blame a little bit of that on Lee too. He should've shared what happened in the meat locker. I think people would've been much more supportive and careful if they knew.

Two very interesting points actually. A rivalry between Lilly and Carley over Lee would have been interesting to see, I wish Telltale would have brought it out more. When Lilly accused Carley, although being annoyed / upset, wasn't really "fighting back." It's only really when Lilly brought up her family was when she started to really fight back in that instance.

"You're in no positions to be making demands."
"Whoa whoa whoa, you're just throwing out fingers here! ... We should calm down, eat, then deal with it."

"She never talk about her family, she could be related to those bastards for all we know."
"Whoa, my family is not a bunch of meth-riddled forest people! They're fucking Lutheran!!!"

Your second really interesting point is how people didn't know what happened at St. Johns. All Carley knows is that Larry is dead, she doesn't actually know the circumstances that happened which would result in Lilly being so unwilling to trust people / so unstable. I mean I wouldn't trust people after a comrad dropped a salt lick on my dad, and in Lilly's case it would be especially potent if Lee were involved. Very, very interesting point though. I completely forgot that no one knew.

Also, I appreciate Carley's humanity with "Stop torturing him" but I do believe that finding the traitor is much more important.
It is good to protect people, but when you keep doing it instead of thinking for your own, then we have a problem.
We all appreciate that Carley saved our asses back in ep. 1 but still it was a dumb move that put her group in danger.

Carley did want to find the traitor, she just wanted it to be done in a more civil fashion if you will. Lilly was in a state where she sees everyone as a possible enemy, after what Kenny did, she wanted to deal with it now because she wouldn't want another comrad to kill one of her companions again. She didn't want to see someone else hurt like her dad (e.g. Clementine or Lee, if he attempted to save Larry). I bet Ben would have told everyone if Lilly wasn't acting so crazy, I mean the kid was already terrified of her.

The best thing to do (in my opinion) would be to immediately approach the situation in a civil manner. Ben would have likely confessed, he'd give his side of the story, everyone would understand. Only one who wouldn't understand would be Kenny because of Duck's condition, but fuck him he'd be in the minority. I don't even think Katjaa would be upset with Ben considering she's, ya know, a saint.

Now about Kenny losing his family... that is different. His family died in an accident, they weren't killed by Lee or Lilly. It is entirely different to have a close person die by someone you've trusted. Lilly felt betrayed by Kenny/+Lee ... how were she to feel secure when the two man overpowered her and killed her father because it was "survival".
If it were Carley, I'm pretty sure she would feel vulnerable too.

I agree. Kenny's families death probably caused a lot more depression but Lilly's father's death likely caused her to lose almost all trust she has in people (aside with Lee, if he helped save her dad).

I wonder what would have happened if Carley was in Lilly's shoes and Doug (assuming he survived the pharmacy) was in Larry's position (assuming those twos relationship developed over the two month span of episode 1 and 2). How would Carley react?

As for Kenny and his loss, I call it karma. My Lee said "What if it was your family, what if it was Katjaa or Duck" and he said "It won't happen, not if I have anything to do with it".
Well it did happen, and he was such a hypocrite. He was in denial for the most part and risked all our lives because he couldn't accept his son is bitten. Karma's a bitch.

Yeah it was karma. After abandoning Shawn and killing Larry... That karma wave hit him hard though. He was hypocritical too. Duck was sure to die, sure to turn into a walker, a sure danger to the group. It was unknown if Larry was going to die (he actually starts to breathe if you do enough CPR on him), unsure if he was going to turn into a walker, unsure if he was going to be a danger to the group.

As for Lilly being more Crawford... well I can't agree with that. She didn't like strangers, true, because she had her group to care for. She was thinking of her own, and once a person became a part of the group she didn't kick them because they might become a liability. She didn't kick Ben so that there would be more food for her right? She was against accepting him because her group was starving. She was against accepting Lee and Kenny, because they were men (who later overpower her) and they could be dangerous (some were, apparently). Again, it's looking for her own, nothing like Crawford.
Kenny is more of a Crawford guy, because he's willing to kill or ditch people who he thinks are a detriment/danger to the group (Larry, Lilly, Ben). He was also ready to let that poor girl get eaten in ep.3 so that he could escape more easily.

Agree completely, I forgot about the dick moves Kenny does. Too further strengthen your point Lilly actually says she is against Kenny's view on Beatrice (the lady on the street) and that putting her out of her misery, despite costing them supplies, would have been better.

Yeah, Lilly were scary, because people had no idea what happened in the meat locker. Kenny made sure she looks like the bad insane guy all the time, which was in fact not true at all.

Kenny should have told the group what he did, maybe then that hate they put on Lilly would transfer to Kenny (as it rightfully should have). I still remember that line Lilly said in episode 2:

"Everyone is starting to hate me because I ration the food..."

Maybe if Kenny or Lee or someone told the group what happened in the meat locker she'd gain more sympathy and become much less angry and violent. All she needed was love.

As for Lilly, she was bad ass until the very and even beyond that. She makes mistakes, deals with unpopular decisions, but still she tries to stick to her own.

I liked her and everything she did except shooting Carley. She'll always be super badass though.

The motor inn wasn't the best place, but it was something. Not everybody is fortunate to find a prison. Hitting the road in hopes you will find a better place that is not taken by others is again gambling with your lives.

Yes the roads are dangerous but it's also a huge gamble to stay in the motel where there's few supplies and many dangerous bandits. If one day a stray arrow hit Clementine or Duck or something... the thought makes me sad.

[Sodawasser]

Why you guys mean that it was that obvious that Ben was the guy who stole the supplies? Yeah we knew that it wasn't Lee or Lilly and that it probably wasn't Kenny, Katja, Carley/Doug but it wasn't sure that it was Ben because of that. What's about Clementine and Duck? Clem could have been it to save the group (she had the chalks)
Duck would have done it if any bandit asked him because he was to dumb for any rational decision..
I don't think that Lilly was a bad leader until her father died but then she turned more and more into an irrational psychopath. I can't see what Carley did wrong at the moment she died. Lilly absolutely didn't know who stole the supplies at that moment, she just killed someone because she was pissed. The only stupid decission in that situation of the others was that they just left her behind without giving her a headshot back.. Yeah I liked Lilly in the previous scenes but if I would have been in Lee's situation I would have killed her.
How can anyone be on Lilly's side in this situation? Even if she would have shot Ben in this situation I would have kicked her out of the group. You can't just look while someone is shooting a kid, especially if you are looking for a girl by yourself. So why the hell can there even be a team Lilly in the last situiation? (as I have already said, I also liked her in other scenes)

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by CrazyandProud

How does that give a right for her to kill another person. She has no evidence, but she still is willing to kill a person. I don't care how sad or traumatic of an experience she had with her father. HERE WAS NO REASON TO SHOOT AND KILL A PERSON. Finding a traitor is all good and dandy, but she was going on a witch hunt. She had no evidence, all she did was throw accusations. There is no excuse. Also, the girl in episode 3 was going to die regardless of anything. You think that Lily would have went out of her way to save her? She would have done the exact same thing as Kenny. Considering this is the same person who wanted to throw out an injured person? Staying at the motor in was not something. It was a slow death trap. You had bandits in the wood, and food was running out. Had they stayed there any longer they would have started to death. Going on the road is a lot better idea since you will continue to find supplies.

What it was Kenny and his wife who were part of the bandits? Who knows? I guess we should shoot them. Maybe it was Lee, I mean who knows? I guess we shoot him as well. Why not kill everybody since it seems she doesn't care about finding the truth. I don't see why she can become the judge, jury, and executioner.

Going on the road was a terrible idea. The events of the game proved it.

[dukeleto]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

Going on the road was a terrible idea. The events of the game proved it.

I agree %100.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by darknessofheart

I don't really see anyone on this particular thread praising Kenny's actions over Lilly's, perhaps just stating that there were more rational logic behind his as opposed to hers'. Kenny was a real asshole at times and made bad decisions as well. Kenny deserved blame for his fair share of screw ups, but that does not alter the fact that Lilly became a loose cannon. Did she have a right to be a wreck? Of course, but someone like that should not be in a leadership position because it can send them over the edge and that's exactly what happened to Lilly.

Defending Ben wasn't really solely a matter of defending his innocence, but getting Lilly to lay off because she was becoming too unhinged. From day one, Lilly has been at odds with Carley so there was obviously some tension there, but no one expected Lilly to just go off like that and kill a fellow companion at point blank range for a mild insult. Again, I'm not saying Kenny is better than Lilly and so forth, but Lilly did not go about things the right way and was unfit to be a leader after the incident with her father because she let her emotions take control of her and override any form of logic.

She was a great character and definitely had reasons to weep, but she lost her sense of logic in this episode and it shows throughout her various, potential actions. If she had it her way, Lee and Clem would've been killed in the first episode, so many players aren't exactly too thrilled about her. I liked her as a character though, but I can't deny that she was going to kill someone regardless of what Carley did and that is a testament to her flaying efforts as a leader.

Lilly was a bitch at the start, but after you save her dad and attempt to save him again, she's much, much more gentler towards Lee. In fact, she's Lee's second romantic interest, depending on his actions, of course, which is why I ship Lee/Lilly. Carley was obviously attracted to Lee, but this is the same girl who liked Doug a few months ago. She was the one afterall who asked him to investigate, so she really didn't suspect him. If she does accuse of you collaborating with Carley, it's more than likely out of spite and jealousy.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by CarScar

That's really nice to here! The problem with Carley is that she doesn't have the survival instincts that Lilly has... honestly I think that's her best quality though. It's so refreshing seeing a character with a lot of humanity left, ya know? I also really like the stark difference between Carley and Lilly too, it's very interesting seeing characters with completely different views butt heads with one another.

Good point, she only really confides in with Lee. It would have been better if she was willing to speak her mind, say the things she says to Lee, to the group as well. It's possible she doesn't because it would just create more drama though, I mean if she told the group that she wanted Lee to take charge Lilly and Kenny would just erupt. There isn't really a point in trying to argue with those two anyways, god knows those two are quite stubborn.

Lilly was acting like the bad guy in this situation though. She needed to just calm down. Admittably she might not have been capable of doing so as she reached her "breaking point" if you will. Every negative emotion she kept bottled up probably just erupted at that point. And when she shot Carley, releasing all that pent up rage she just had this look on her face that just said "what have I done..?"

It's not like Carley didn't want to deal with the situation though, she just didn't want to approach the situation as Lilly did. I mean, what if Ben wasn't the traitor? That's mean you just "tortured" this young man for no reason. She wanted to approach the situation more rationally.

"We need to look at the facts. We'll calm down, eat, and deal with it then.

Although it's always possible if they didn't deal with it now, because of the group was in the dark in regards to what the traitors motive was, the traitor could have killed, or endangered the group. Although that isn't something someone like Carley would consider because she's loyal and trusting towards Ben. In that way Lilly was right (which is why she's in a higher place of power, she has those survival instincts), but Carley was still right that the situation was getting out of hand and everyone needed to calm down.

Carley did simply try to calm the situation down (she really didn't get angry until Lilly brought up her family, I think that struck a nerve or something), simply pleading Lilly to stop being so harsh with her accusations. Like I said before though, Lilly is stubborn. Carley got impatient and gave that oh so famous line of hers. You can't really blame Carley with getting impatient though, Lilly was being quite unreasonable and wasn't listening to anything Lee nor Carely was saying. It might have been best to just stay quiet though, but it's not in her nature. She's friends with Ben and couldn't stand watching him in pain. It could be argued that it was stupid but, usually, most noble causes are "stupid."

Two very interesting points actually. A rivalry between Lilly and Carley over Lee would have been interesting to see, I wish Telltale would have brought it out more. When Lilly accused Carley, although being annoyed / upset, wasn't really "fighting back." It's only really when Lilly brought up her family was when she started to really fight back in that instance.

"You're in no positions to be making demands."
"Whoa whoa whoa, you're just throwing out fingers here! ... We should calm down, eat, then deal with it."

"She never talk about her family, she could be related to those bastards for all we know."
"Whoa, my family is not a bunch of meth-riddled forest people! They're fucking Lutheran!!!"

Your second really interesting point is how people didn't know what happened at St. Johns. All Carley knows is that Larry is dead, she doesn't actually know the circumstances that happened which would result in Lilly being so unwilling to trust people / so unstable. I mean I wouldn't trust people after a comrad dropped a salt lick on my dad, and in Lilly's case it would be especially potent if Lee were involved. Very, very interesting point though. I completely forgot that no one knew.

Carley did want to find the traitor, she just wanted it to be done in a more civil fashion if you will. Lilly was in a state where she sees everyone as a possible enemy, after what Kenny did, she wanted to deal with it now because she wouldn't want another comrad to kill one of her companions again. She didn't want to see someone else hurt like her dad (e.g. Clementine or Lee, if he attempted to save Larry). I bet Ben would have told everyone if Lilly wasn't acting so crazy, I mean the kid was already terrified of her.

The best thing to do (in my opinion) would be to immediately approach the situation in a civil manner. Ben would have likely confessed, he'd give his side of the story, everyone would understand. Only one who wouldn't understand would be Kenny because of Duck's condition, but fuck him he'd be in the minority. I don't even think Katjaa would be upset with Ben considering she's, ya know, a saint.

I agree. Kenny's families death probably caused a lot more depression but Lilly's father's death likely caused her to lose almost all trust she has in people (aside with Lee, if he helped save her dad).

I wonder what would have happened if Carley was in Lilly's shoes and Doug (assuming he survived the pharmacy) was in Larry's position (assuming those twos relationship developed over the two month span of episode 1 and 2). How would Carley react?

Yeah it was karma. After abandoning Shawn and killing Larry... That karma wave hit him hard though. He was hypocritical too. Duck was sure to die, sure to turn into a walker, a sure danger to the group. It was unknown if Larry was going to die (he actually starts to breathe if you do enough CPR on him), unsure if he was going to turn into a walker, unsure if he was going to be a danger to the group.


Agree completely, I forgot about the dick moves Kenny does. Too further strengthen your point Lilly actually says she is against Kenny's view on Beatrice (the lady on the street) and that putting her out of her misery, despite costing them supplies, would have been better.

Kenny should have told the group what he did, maybe then that hate they put on Lilly would transfer to Kenny (as it rightfully should have). I still remember that line Lilly said in episode 2:

"Everyone is starting to hate me because I ration the food..."

Maybe if Kenny or Lee or someone told the group what happened in the meat locker she'd gain more sympathy and become much less angry and violent. All she needed was love.


I liked her and everything she did except shooting Carley. She'll always be super badass though.


Yes the roads are dangerous but it's also a huge gamble to stay in the motel where there's few supplies and many dangerous bandits. If one day a stray arrow hit Clementine or Duck or something... the thought makes me sad.

Speaking of the Larry incident. It's different than Lee's brother. Different than Duck. Lee and Kenny knew their loved ones were dead. Lee's bro was a zombie, Katjaa killed herself, and Duck was doomed by bite. She didn't know if Larry died (despite evidence suggesting he was still alive). And that's the worst thing, not knowing.

[StreetsAhead24]

Why is this even a thread? This sound like someone is just trolling

It's pointless and people are just going to argue...

[CrazyandProud]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

Going on the road was a terrible idea. The events of the game proved it.

And staying at the motel proved to be a bad idea as well.

Originally Posted by Doctanian

Speaking of the Larry incident. It's different than Lee's brother. Different than Duck. Lee and Kenny knew their loved ones were dead. Lee's bro was a zombie, Katjaa killed herself, and Duck was doomed by bite. She didn't know if Larry died (despite evidence suggesting he was still alive). And that's the worst thing, not knowing.

The guys heart stopped, he was as good as dead. What evidence that he was alive? She knew he was dead, she just couldn't accept it.


Anyways, I am glad Larry is gone. The asshole pushed me down in the pharmacy and left me for dead after saving his life. Lilly is an asshole as well, shooting another person based on flimsy evidence. No one is to blame except for her. I don't care how unstable she was, in fact, all the better reason to leave her on the side of the road.

[Hazevamp]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

3. I got to admit I thought it was Carley. I assumed her stupidity is just a clever act to deceive us. Point taken. Never underestimate stupidity.

I also thought it was Carley but also Ben. Ben seemed too defensive about everything I asked him about and Carley seemed dumb enough to do it.

Now, people like to attack Lilly for all sorts of things. That's funny, really, given the fact that she snaps right after your favourite Kenny kills her father.

I hated Kenny on both of my playthroughs. In my first one I didn't really side with him much and tried to help Lily save Larry even though I also couldn't stand her or her father much, of course that got on Kenny's bad side. In my second play though I befriended Kenny and helped him kill Larry then later on the fucker still says I haven't always been there for him which my Lee gladly cursed him out for. Either way. Lily was out of it and had no place trying to maintain some sort of leadership role. Both her and Kenny were shit "leaders" who looked to Lee for everything.

But of course it is okay for him to drink and grieve in ep.4, I mean he lost his family...we should be sympathetic.

I hated Kenny but I preferred his way of dealing with his grief over Lily. She chose violence, he chose to destroy himself. I don't see how you can defend Lily's irrational violent behavior and compare it to Kenny's.

Lilly was sitting in her room? How dare she....

Lily was sitting in her room hording supplies for herself while other people bust their butts in the woods getting them. She also chose to sit in her room and let someone else(Lee) solve the theft. She was a poor leader but just couldn't let the reigns go.

It is not also that Lilly saves the group and is the only one to react to the bandit attack. Nah, I'm so happy that Kenny (who was again sitting on his couch) was the one to save your asses.

I credit Lee more with saving the group during the attack. Lily and Kenny helped with the RV and rifle but really, I barely noticed her doing much shooting.

Even back in ep. 2 I was convinced that boat plan is the worst plan I've ever heard. I'm really surprised anyone in their right mind expected that boats would be waiting for them...

I agree, the boat idea sucked and on my first play through I constantly selected for Lee and Clem to go on their own. But nope, Lee HAD to go with Kenny for that stupid boat. It didn't surprise me that the boats were all gone or damaged. Kenny refused to think of any other plan besides his retarded boat idea. Never mind the fact that the boat needed gas to run and they barely had any food. But also staying at the motor inn for as long as they did was the dumbest idea ever as well. Yeah let's all keep staying in a location where we are all starving and there are known bandits roaming about...yeah they'll NEVER discover our location even when a crazy woman who may or may not be with them was able to record us.

This is why both Lily and Kenny sucked as "leaders" they both wanted the job and both had awful ideas for survival that doesn't help the group at all and even get them killed. I wish the game was more free roaming cause I would have taken Clem and Carley, stole the RV and split.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by CrazyandProud

And staying at the motel proved to be a bad idea as well.


The guys heart stopped, he was as good as dead. What evidence that he was alive? She knew he was dead, she just couldn't accept it.


Anyways, I am glad Larry is gone. The asshole pushed me down in the pharmacy and left me for dead after saving his life. Lilly is an asshole as well, shooting another person based on flimsy evidence. No one is to blame except for her. I don't care how unstable she was, in fact, all the better reason to leave her on the side of the road.

Didn't Lee, Carley, and Lilly kill most of the bandits? The only problem was walkers. They could've taken the RV not too far from the motel and took it back. Rick did it with the Prison.

Besides, the fact they left indirectly resulted in the deaths of Lee, Ben, Kenny, Chuck, and possibly Molly. So leaving increased the killcount.

Larry takes a breath. TellTale confirmed it. Whether it was alive or dead is up for debate. And you don't die from heart attacks so quickly, at least not commonly. Larry was a tough dude, so I'm not buying that so quickly.

[Doctanian]

Originally Posted by StreetsAhead24

Why is this even a thread? This sound like someone is just trolling

It's pointless and people are just going to argue...

People argue all the time. Over who's going to be in season 2, what episode was best, which characters were best, etc. If you don't like debating why are you even on a thread encouraging it? Makes no fucking sense. That's like going to a bar and saying "why are all of you drinking beer?"

[DreadMagus]

lol

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

Didn't Lee, Carley, and Lilly kill most of the bandits? The only problem was walkers. They could've taken the RV not too far from the motel and took it back. Rick did it with the Prison.

Besides, the fact they left indirectly resulted in the deaths of Lee, Ben, Kenny, Chuck, and possibly Molly. So leaving increased the killcount.

Larry takes a breath. TellTale confirmed it. Whether it was alive or dead is up for debate. And you don't die from heart attacks so quickly, at least not commonly. Larry was a tough dude, so I'm not buying that so quickly.

i think there were loads of bandits so they didn't kill all of them and i would imagine these guys hold a grudge, telltale confirmed larry moved his mouth but anybody(if they own the game) can confirm that

[Deák]

Originally Posted by Doctanian

Going on the road was a terrible idea. The events of the game proved it.

Have you read comics? Than you´d know that hitting road is best idea unless you have group which is able to defeat the horde of 100+ walkers and hell of a defence. In Motor Inn there were 8 people, 2 of those kids and only Lee, Lilly, Carley and Kenny (after what Mark was killed) who were able to shoot gun properly or slash an axe through walkers head. Their defence system were containers. In Alexandria horde got past 5 meters tall walls.

Eventually horde would hit the motor inn. They would hit them half-starved on top of it.

When Rick got stucked in church, with nearly no food and hostiles around him he didnt waited till the death will come for them all, he killed them and than moved on to Washington.