Episode 5 Disappointment (vent here) **SPOILERS**

[JackSchirmer]

Originally Posted by ZombieGoBoom

I'm okay with Lee's death. I went into this game prepared to do anything to keep Clem and the characters I care about safe. I just wish I had just a little more info on Clem's fate.

Yup. The lack of any sort of closure in that regard was clearly the result of bad planning and a deadline. Weak sauce.

[JackSchirmer]

Originally Posted by EL guapo22683

I'm just curious how season 2 is going to play out. Is Lee going to wake up and keep on going? Are we going to take over Clem? Or will we control some new character in season 2? Most importantly anyone know when season 2 episode 1 is even going to be released?

This is great. He's going to pull a Merle, chop his hand off, be the first to survive a zombie bite, and stagger off into the sunset, happily ever after.

I can't wait.

Oh. Yes I can.

[Sabiancym]

I was excited when I saw that Episode 5 was out. I bought it and went to go load up my game and finally finish this masterpiece....but then I realized that I had reformatted and lost my save game file.

So I had to play the first 4 episodes all over again, which was fine (although the lack of actual choice in the game is even more obvious). After 8 or so hours of replaying the game I was finally ready and excited to see what would happen.

Will Clem be found? Who was the guy on the radio? Would they get on the boat? What will happen to Lee and what will he do to ensure Clem's safety (if saved)? Little did I know that all of those questions would be answered in the shortest and most boring way possible.

Would they get on the boat?
The time spent during the last three episodes talking about a boat, finding a boat, risking everything to find parts for the boat, and fixing the boat is more or less killed 15 minutes into Episode 5. Not in any dramatic way mind you. Ben tells the group that Vernon's group came and took the boat. That's it. Vernon isn't seen taking the boat, and isn't seen any time after. Three episodes worth of conversation and gameplay is negated by a secondary character just saying that the boat is gone......ridiculous. Imagine the battle in the final Lord of the Rings movie just being Aragorn telling people that they won the battle without showing it at all.

Will Clem be found?/Who was the guy on the radio?
She's taken without anyone noticing. Lee falls asleep in the same room as Clem only to wake up a few hours later to find her gone and no one even saw or heard her being taken. After a mysterious talk over the radio with a dangerous sounding man who seems to have been ingeniously observing and involving himself in the group even before they boarded the train Lee and the group prepares to find and defeat this mysterious figure....
....After being a mystery for multiple episodes. After seeming like a figure that involves Clem and Lee in something much larger than just surviving. After all that.....he is just the dude who's mad that you stole food out of his car and simply takes Clem to a hotel room. Not only is he not a mysterious figure, but his powerful aura he portrayed by unnerving the group through messages and stealing Clem like a shadow is completely ruined. He get's hit in the head with a wine bottle by the 9 year old he kidnapped because he didn't lock the door to the room he was keeping her in. A 9 year old with a glass bottle more or less thwarts the main antagonist of the past 3 episodes....

What will happen to Lee and what will he do to ensure Clem's safety (if saved)?
Throughout the whole game Lee is constantly looking out for Clem. He grows to love her and realizes that he will do anything to protect her. He's gone through multiple dangerous situations and killed plenty of walkers just to protect this girl he has grown to care for. At the end of Episode 4 he is bitten and we see that our Hero is not invincible, but Lee has had plenty of setbacks and always comes out of them. If anything, he thrives during these moments.
....So what happens? He rooftop hops a few blocks, and easily retrieves Clem from the worst Villain the Apocalypse has ever seen in a hotel room. Then, just as he is starting to show that trademark Lee-ness (new word) by guiding Clem through the horde of zombies, he passes out and has to be saved by the 9 year old girl. Surely when he recovers he'll do something to help Clem right? Nope, he wakes up only to die a few minutes later next to a radiator. He doesn't pull through and guide Clem to ensured future safety. He doesn't die in an action packed heroic moment saving Clementine. Nope, he lays down on the ground and says he can't get up....then he dies. The end.


Although I think they are no longer unique and are borderline cliche now within the genre, I'm completely fine with tragic endings. I'm fine with Lee dying. I'm even fine with Clem being left alone. The problem is the incredibly lackluster way it's done. Lee finds out where Clem is, gets across town to the hotel, "defeats" the bad guy, "rescues" clem, and escapes in about the same time it took to leave the Motor Inn and get the train started........and was less exciting than the train startup sequence.

The game also displays a message before every episode claiming that your choices and gameplay affect and change the story. So why is there only one ending? It's obvious that in other episodes your choices don't affect the story at all, but couldn't they at least try to make that beginning message a little bit true? I've played side scrolling platform games with 3-4 endings, yet the adventure story based game who's major selling point is choice and player involvement in the story can't even make 2.

Telltalle phoned this one in. It's that simple. Instead of creating an actual final episode, they created the intro sequence/back-story to season 2. I suspect that they had a real ending thought up, but once the sequels were approved they had to toss it and change it from a finale to a short transition.

This is probably the most disappointing "sequel" (kind of) I've ever played.
Episodes 1 through 4 are Brilliant.
Episode 5 is to the first 4 as Crystal Skull is to the Original Indiana Jones Trilogy.

[Sabiancym]

Notice how they take all the disappointments and merge them into one thread, but don't do the same for people praising it.....

[mkane24]

Originally Posted by Sabiancym

Notice how they take all the disappointments and merge them into one thread, but don't do the same for people praising it.....

you noticed that too?

[CrazyandProud]

Originally Posted by Sabiancym

Would they get on the boat?
The time spent during the last three episodes talking about a boat, finding a boat, risking everything to find parts for the boat, and fixing the boat is more or less killed 15 minutes into Episode 5. Not in any dramatic way mind you. Ben tells the group that Vernon's group came and took the boat. That's it. Vernon isn't seen taking the boat, and isn't seen any time after. Three episodes worth of conversation and gameplay is negated by a secondary character just saying that the boat is gone......ridiculous. Imagine the battle in the final Lord of the Rings movie just being Aragorn telling people that they won the battle without showing it at all.

How is that ridiculous? In real life you wouldn't see everything happen. They took the boat while you were not there. I know that it must be shocking to know that not everything happens in front of you. Your analogy is not a good one since you are comparing two different types of stories. Lord of the Rings is a big epic story, while the walking dead is a more contained and grounded story despite having zombies in it. It would be less realistic to have them try to steal the boat when everyone was there. Would you steal a boat when there were more or less people? It also does not negate anything, the plan was to get the boat. The fact that they were close to getting the boat and using it and then having it all taken away adds to the overall feeling of sorrow and helplessness. The boat also served as to give a goal and hope for the group. It doesn't have to be used to have a purpose in the story. Not everything in the story need to have a video game style of goals and accomplishment.

Will Clem be found?/Who was the guy on the radio?
She's taken without anyone noticing. Lee falls asleep in the same room as Clem only to wake up a few hours later to find her gone and no one even saw or heard her being taken. After a mysterious talk over the radio with a dangerous sounding man who seems to have been ingeniously observing and involving himself in the group even before they boarded the train Lee and the group prepares to find and defeat this mysterious figure....
....After being a mystery for multiple episodes. After seeming like a figure that involves Clem and Lee in something much larger than just surviving. After all that.....he is just the dude who's mad that you stole food out of his car and simply takes Clem to a hotel room. Not only is he not a mysterious figure, but his powerful aura he portrayed by unnerving the group through messages and stealing Clem like a shadow is completely ruined. He get's hit in the head with a wine bottle by the 9 year old he kidnapped because he didn't lock the door to the room he was keeping her in. A 9 year old with a glass bottle more or less thwarts the main antagonist of the past 3 episodes....

I was not aware that the antagonist had superpowers and could not be hurt be bottles. He was a crazy guy, but he still has weakness like any other human. He didn't lock her in because he didn't view it as a kidnapping, he viewed it as a rescue. In his mind there was no reason to lock her up. He also believed that she could not hut anyone. The fact that a crazy man who talks to a zombie head of his wife would not be thinking straight should not be that surprising.

What will happen to Lee and what will he do to ensure Clem's safety (if saved)?
Throughout the whole game Lee is constantly looking out for Clem. He grows to love her and realizes that he will do anything to protect her. He's gone through multiple dangerous situations and killed plenty of walkers just to protect this girl he has grown to care for. At the end of Episode 4 he is bitten and we see that our Hero is not invincible, but Lee has had plenty of setbacks and always comes out of them. If anything, he thrives during these moments.
....So what happens? He rooftop hops a few blocks, and easily retrieves Clem from the worst Villain the Apocalypse has ever seen in a hotel room. Then, just as he is starting to show that trademark Lee-ness (new word) by guiding Clem through the horde of zombies, he passes out and has to be saved by the 9 year old girl. Surely when he recovers he'll do something to help Clem right? Nope, he wakes up only to die a few minutes later next to a radiator. He doesn't pull through and guide Clem to ensured future safety. He doesn't die in an action packed heroic moment saving Clementine. Nope, he lays down on the ground and says he can't get up....then he dies. The end.

So you disappointed that it was a sad ending? Exactly how did you want it to end? Lee somehow get over an illness that has now cure? Lee is not superman, and there was no way he was not going to die by the end of this episode. There was no recovering, if you payed close attention you could see that there were gradual changes in his eyes and skin as the episode and the virus progressed.

Although I think they are no longer unique and are borderline cliche now within the genre, I'm completely fine with tragic endings. I'm fine with Lee dying. I'm even fine with Clem being left alone. The problem is the incredibly lackluster way it's done. Lee finds out where Clem is, gets across town to the hotel, "defeats" the bad guy, "rescues" clem, and escapes in about the same time it took to leave the Motor Inn and get the train started........and was less exciting than the train startup sequence.

And yet you find that somehow dieing in some heroic way less cliche? The ending is not suppose to make you feel good. Heroic deaths are never as sad as ones that happen just because unfortunate circumstances. This is not a superhero story. It is suppose show a realistic and very human way people survive and die in an apocalyptic setting. This not a "save the world" type of story that you seem to implying that you want.

The game also displays a message before every episode claiming that your choices and gameplay affect and change the story. So why is there only one ending? It's obvious that in other episodes your choices don't affect the story at all, but couldn't they at least try to make that beginning message a little bit true? I've played side scrolling platform games with 3-4 endings, yet the adventure story based game who's major selling point is choice and player involvement in the story can't even make 2.

I hate it when people think that the only way that a game can have change in a story is if it branches out or if the game has multiple endings. The changes in this game are how people interact with you. One person can have Kenny be your friend while another can have him as someone who hates you. It changes the experience of the story.

[The13thRonin]

Originally Posted by CrazyandProud

I hate it when people think that the only way that a game can have change in a story is if it branches out or if the game has multiple endings. The changes in this game are how people interact with you. One person can have Kenny be your friend while another can have him as someone who hates you. It changes the experience of the story.

No, no, no, no, no. It doesn't "change the experience" because the experience is exactly the same no-matter what choices you make... Whether Kenny hates you or not does not stop him dying... Whether you steal from the car or not does not stop Clementine being kidnapped... What will it take for you people to actually get it?

If I paint a pineapple red or blue or green or yellow does it stop being a pineapple? Does it "change the experience"? No. Because it's still a freaking pineapple. It's still spiky and filled with delicious fruit... Stop trying to pretend that it's something different. Like somehow by painting the pineapple red it becomes something far more interesting and meaningful than the pineapple that it was before...

[CrazyandProud]

Originally Posted by The13thRonin

No, no, no, no, no. It doesn't "change the experience" because the experience is exactly the same no-matter what choices you make... Whether Kenny hates you or not does not stop him dying... Whether you steal from the car or not does not stop Clementine being kidnapped... What will it take for you people to actually get it?

If I paint a pineapple red or blue or green or yellow does it stop being a pineapple? Does it "change the experience"? No. Because it's still a freaking pineapple. It's still spiky and filled with delicious fruit... Stop trying to pretend that it's something different.

Why does it have to? Again it changes the way characters react to you. The way characters does change the experience, whether or not you like that kind of change is a different matter. If you paint a pineapple in different colors, then the way I view that pineapple is different from how I would view the other colors of pineapple. Not everything need to have physical and drastic changes in the story for it to be change.

[Siniistar]

Originally Posted by The13thRonin

No, no, no, no, no. It doesn't "change the experience" because the experience is exactly the same no-matter what choices you make... Whether Kenny hates you or not does not stop him dying... Whether you steal from the car or not does not stop Clementine being kidnapped... What will it take for you people to actually get it?

If I paint a pineapple red or blue or green or yellow does it stop being a pineapple? Does it "change the experience"? No. Because it's still a freaking pineapple. It's still spiky and filled with delicious fruit... Stop trying to pretend that it's something different. Like somehow by painting the pineapple red it becomes something far more interesting and meaningful than the pineapple that it was before...

lol dat analogy

but it is true. This game had mass effect syndrome pretty hard. ending is just different colors of the same plot

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by The13thRonin

No, no, no, no, no. It doesn't "change the experience" because the experience is exactly the same no-matter what choices you make... Whether Kenny hates you or not does not stop him dying... Whether you steal from the car or not does not stop Clementine being kidnapped... What will it take for you people to actually get it?

If I paint a pineapple red or blue or green or yellow does it stop being a pineapple? Does it "change the experience"? No. Because it's still a freaking pineapple. It's still spiky and filled with delicious fruit... Stop trying to pretend that it's something different. Like somehow by painting the pineapple red it becomes something far more interesting and meaningful than the pineapple that it was before...

i get were you are coming from, i in fact joined the forum (after episode 2) to complain that i didn't feel like it was tailored by my play or that the choices mattered (the issue had already been raised so i decided not to go on about it) ,
but that is because when i heard about a zombie adventure game that was tailored by how i play where choices mattered, i imagined that the choices and tailored game play would be about choosing where i go, what vehicle i choose and what survivors i find and save etc. i didn't even consider dialogue choices and relationships as an important a part of a game, but that is what the tailored gameplay and choices are, and TWD games most important parts are the dialogue choices you make and the relationships you build and that the goal of the game is not to save the world but just to make moral choices that you are happy with.

i dont think you could claim they lied by advertising it the way they did, i just think its hard to describe what TDW game is, i dont know if i would consider TWD game to be a new genre but i would say it is different to most adventure games you will play, so calling it a point and click adventure game just doesn't describe it properly.

also i cant even decide at what point i would say that choices truly matter, eg. if there were a fork in the train track and we could choose to go somewhere different , would that truly matter? because it would be the same lee just in a different location (different pineapple paint) and if the story drastically changed because of a choice you made would that really matter because it would just be a choice of 2 predefined linear story lines.

i want a game like the games on the holodeck, but unfortunately we just don't have the computing power and programming to have a game that game procedurally generate stories, the best we can get is procedurally generated events that we have to invent patterns and stories for, but they will never (unless out of pure coincidence) have any kind of story craft or moral meaning they are just random events that mean nothing, i prefer that telltale made a story not an event generating machine.

[Hazevamp]

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

i dont think you could claim they lied by advertising it the way they did, i just think its hard to describe what TDW game is, i dont know if i would consider TWD game to be a new genre but i would say it is different to most adventure games you will play, so calling it a point and click adventure game just doesn't describe it properly.

They claimed that the story adapts and is tailored to how you play. Not the experience is tailored to how you play. There is a difference between experience and story. It was a point and click adventure game but with dialogue options. I'm sure everyone started this game believing that the actual story changed based on their choices. Most of the people defending Telltale just don't want to admit it.

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by Hazevamp

They claimed that the story adapts and is tailored to how you play. Not the experience is tailored to how you play. There is a difference between experience and story. It was a point and click adventure game but with dialogue options. I'm sure everyone started this game believing that the actual story changed based on their choices. Most of the people defending Telltale just don't want to admit it.

i would have liked my definition of story and telltales definition to match, i but i don't think it would be lying to say that having your bro kenny by your side and that bitch lilly ruining everything is a different story to that poor lilly who lost her father and snapped in an extremely difficult time because of that bastard Kenny and that traitor ben.

that isn't even everything and they are two different stories, maybe the beginning and the end are identical but the middle is different

[lucidity02]

Originally Posted by Hazevamp

I'm sure everyone started this game believing that the actual story changed based on their choices. Most of the people defending Telltale just don't want to admit it.

I didn't believe that when I started the game, and -- as I've said several times throughout this forum -- there is nothing in Telltale's marketing language to indicate that the story dramatically changes based on your decisions. If they DID say that at one point, feel free to post a link, but right now you're basing your interpretation of the game on your interpretation of a single line of marketing copy.

I felt like the game was a highly personal, personalized experience. If you didn't, that sucks and that's fine, but claiming that the people "defending" Telltale "don't want to admit" anything is just your opinion.

[DreadMagus]

Originally Posted by lucidity02

I didn't believe that when I started the game, and -- as I've said several times throughout this forum -- there is nothing in Telltale's marketing language to indicate that the story dramatically changes based on your decisions. If they DID say that at one point, feel free to post a link, but right now you're basing your interpretation of the game on your interpretation of a single line of marketing copy.

I felt like the game was a highly personal, personalized experience. If you didn't, that sucks and that's fine, but claiming that the people "defending" Telltale "don't want to admit" anything is just your opinion.

Very well said. Probably the best "counterpoint" to that line of thought I've read in a while.

[mkane24]

If you go on the main page and watch the choice matters trailer i could see where one would believe that choices have a big impact

[PDHY]

If Lee had to die, I really wanted to see Clem meet up with Christa and Omid before the game ended.

Not really a disappointment, but I was fully expecting one of the final game situations to be the boat issue, where we would have to choose who gets left behind (and you could choose yourself), since it was mentioned quite a few times by Kenny. I thought for sure that would be a scenario, but before you know it, everyone starts dying.

[shedim]

Originally Posted by CrazyandProud

I hate it when people think that the only way that a game can have change in a story is if it branches out or if the game has multiple endings. The changes in this game are how people interact with you. One person can have Kenny be your friend while another can have him as someone who hates you. It changes the experience of the story.

So you're basically saying that developers should completely ignore the unique and immense possibilities that digital media have to offer and shape their stories just like the non-interactive rollercoaster ride that is a novel or a comic, rather than putting some effort into their product in order to make it a truly unique experience, where the story can branch out and is truly shaped by the player's decisions?

And no, slightly different dialogues do not match my definition of "A tailored game experience – Live with the profound and lasting consequences of the decisions that you make in each episode." or "Your actions and choices will affect how your story plays out across the entire series."

There is not a single choice in this game that has any impact whatsoever on the story.

[CrazyandProud]

Originally Posted by shedim

So you're basically saying that developers should completely ignore the unique and immense possibilities that digital media have to offer and shape their stories just like the non-interactive rollercoaster ride that is a novel or a comic, rather than putting some effort into their product in order to make it a truly unique experience, where the story can branch out and is truly shaped by the player's decisions?

And no, slightly different dialogues do not match my definition of "A tailored game experience – Live with the profound and lasting consequences of the decisions that you make in each episode." or "Your actions and choices will affect how your story plays out across the entire series."

There is not a single choice in this game that has any impact whatsoever on the story.

They effect the way people interact with you. That effects the way the story is told. It fits the definition just fine. Just because you don't like that kind of change doesn't mean it's not there. They do have an impact on things in the game.

[Hazevamp]

Originally Posted by lucidity02

I didn't believe that when I started the game, and -- as I've said several times throughout this forum -- there is nothing in Telltale's marketing language to indicate that the story dramatically changes based on your decisions. If they DID say that at one point, feel free to post a link, but right now you're basing your interpretation of the game on your interpretation of a single line of marketing copy.

I felt like the game was a highly personal, personalized experience. If you didn't, that sucks and that's fine, but claiming that the people "defending" Telltale "don't want to admit" anything is just your opinion.

No its a fact and yes they did mislead everyone with their wording. No one said the story had to "dramatically" change not even Mass Effect's story dramatically changed but the changes were at least there whereas TWD game was more about the player's emotional experience based on the dialogue options. Anyone who thinks Telltale games wasn't trying to cash in on the whole Mass Effect deal with that "story tailored" ploy is very naive and I would love to sell you a bridge.

[Hazevamp]

Originally Posted by CrazyandProud

They effect the way people interact with you. That effects the way the story is told. It fits the definition just fine. Just because you don't like that kind of change doesn't mean it's not there. They do have an impact on things in the game.

Not really, most characters pretty much say the same lines to you no matter what. Which honestly makes no sense for the situation. Others will speak slightly different lines. Once again, how does the change in dialogue change the story? If you look at the story alone, it is pretty much a linear set in stone story no matter what you choose.