not lee! noooooo

[Rambo297]

I really don't like that end. It made me feel kinda like Everything i did, gone to hell... Just was... useless, that no matter of what, Lee die... That would be cool with some endings and he survives in some. It was sad to watch him death after all of that...

[robuk]

At the end of the day i have to have a reason to care and make decisions in the game,if any character i have any affinity with is going to be killed off then the game won't hold my interest.
No doubt the writers have chosen their way of proceeding with the story so thats cool but i've read Max Brooks World War Z a few times and people survive from day one until the end of the zombie outbreak,they adapt and make decisions that keep them and people they care about alive...probably the sort of game format i'm more into.

[Zargus]

Originally Posted by Rambo297

I really don't like that end. It made me feel kinda like Everything i did, gone to hell... Just was... useless, that no matter of what, Lee die... That would be cool with some endings and he survives in some. It was sad to watch him death after all of that...

How was it useless? You taught Clem how to survive in this world. If my actions keep even one person alive for as long as possible after I have died then all my choices would have been worth it.

Originally Posted by robuk

At the end of the day i have to have a reason to care and make decisions in the game,if any character i have any affinity with is going to be killed off then the game won't hold my interest.
No doubt the writers have chosen their way of proceeding with the story so thats cool but i've read Max Brooks World War Z a few times and people survive from day one until the end of the zombie outbreak,they adapt and make decisions that keep them and people they care about alive...probably the sort of game format i'm more into.

Yes but World War Z HAD an ending so people could survive from day one. The Walking Dead I am 100% sure will only end when sales in the comic book fall and so far I doubt that is going to happen even after Rick's approximate 300 Issue lifespan so The Walking Dead will have no ending. The world that everyone knew in The Walking Dead is gone and this is the world that everyone lives with now and will always live in. There is no going back and there is no way to stop the outbreak because everyone is infected.

Why do you think Robert Kirkman pitched the idea of making The Walking Dead TV Show with this line...."The Zombie Movie That Never Ends."? Because it is.

[robuk]

Originally Posted by Zargus

Yes but World War Z HAD an ending so people could survive from day one. The Walking Dead I am 100% sure will only end when sales in the comic book fall and so far I doubt that is going to happen even after Rick's approximate 300 Issue lifespan so The Walking Dead will have no ending. The world that everyone knew in The Walking Dead is gone and this is the world that everyone lives with now and will always live in. There is no going back and there is no way to stop the outbreak because everyone is infected.

Why do you think Robert Kirkman pitched the idea of making The Walking Dead TV Show with this line...."The Zombie Movie That Never Ends."? Because it is.

Yes i guess you are right,i will just have to accept the Walking Dead world for what it is and that applies to the game...if i want to play it.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Zargus

Exactly what Master of Aeons said. If you can't deal with Character Death almost contently then TWD is the wrong franchise. But Glenn is not dead in the TV show just the comics....so far.

And Daryl will die too. Robert Kirkman said every character is going to die it is just a matter of when they will. So to stop watching or reading because your favorite character dies is a bit silly.

I don't think it's silly if you loose interest in a story because the characters you found most interesting are no longer in it. I don't think I would continue to buy the comics if Rick was killed off not only because he is one of my favourite characters but because I see the walking dead as being a story shown from his perspective.

[Rambo297]

Originally Posted by Zargus

How was it useless? You taught Clem how to survive in this world. If my actions keep even one person alive for as long as possible after I have died then all my choices would have been worth it.

Yeah, but i don't think that Clementine will survive this alone after all. But i don't thought about Clementine. I thought about decisions like Cutting of hand, Leaving Lilly at the road. Be or not to be Kenny of friend Cause he always die the same way, YOU die the same way, no matter if you were helpful or asshole, if u Cut the hand or not.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Master of Aeons

Glenn dies too. You've really got the wrong franchise if you can't stand character death.

Key characters in the walking dead do die but they usually last more than 13 weeks. Glenn survived the apocalypse for nearly 2 years and he wasn't bitten by a zombie he was killed by a human. Key characters in the walking dead will generally be killed by other humans or when an area is over run since they have learned to take the necessary precautions. Most members of Rick's group could deal with a single walker. I say this to say that, yes, you expect people to die in the walking dead but you expect them to last longer than Lee did.

I would have understood telltale's decision to kill of Lee if episode 5 was going to be the last episode in the story since Kirkman may very well kill of Rick towards the end of the comics, but episode 5 is practically mid way in the story. When Kirkman kills of fan favourites he makes sure he leaves some left. As much as I enjoyed the game I don't think Telltale balanced the group of survivors well enough. They killed off all of the fan favourites in episode 3 leaving us with 3 replacement characters that we didn't give a shit about, then they take away the last 2 fan favourites in episode 5(Lee and Kenny) leaving us with Christa and Omid who were 2 of the 3 characters introduced in episode 3 that hardly anyone gave a shit about. I wasn't bothered when I saw Chuck's body in the sewers because I barely knew him. He had only been with group for a matter of hours since episode 4 started straight after where episode 3 ended. Had Carly of died in the sewer it would have been far more impactful.

I definitely think Teltale should have had at least 1 character from the original group at the end of the game besides Clementine as opposed to 2 newcomers, assuming that the 2 people in the distance were Omid and Christa. We know very little about Omid and Christa, even now. Though it makes them mysterious and may cause intrigue at the prospect of seeing them in season 2, I personally don't have any feelings for them as characters. I didn't like them more than Chuck and I didn't like Chuck more than them. Omid and Christa came in the game at the end of episode 3, around 3 or 5pm, a few hours after the loss of Kat and duck. They arrived with Lee at Savannah hours later in episode 4. By night fall they were at Crawford. The following day they search for Clementine in episode 5. That is how long these characters were part of Lee's group as opposed to Kat,Carly/Doug,Duck,Kenny,Larry who had lived with Lee for 3 months. Yes these characters, or rather some of them should of died but their deaths should have been more spread out instead of Telltale killing a group member per episode. If character deaths aren't felt by the audience they might as well be "red shirts", that is how I saw Chuck. I think Larry could have been around longer because he had a lot of character. He was a character that you loved to hate and I definitely think Carly's death could have been sad if she died later in the game. Most people felt anger when she died, not sadness.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by robuk

Much as i loved playing the game for me role playing and survival games are about keeping my character alive,developing him/her,building a story where i interact and begin to care about others in the game.Lee was my character and i cared about him and keeping Clem safe,now i might be in the minority here but Lee dying has just lessened my interest in the game,and if any character i play in the game is destined to die in about episode 5 of the next series then i'm not sure the game will hook me as much as walking dead series one did.

I feel the exact same way. I will play season 2 to find out the fate of Clementine but I will be just going through the motions. Removing Lee from the duo that was Clem and Lee changes the dynamics in a way that will either work or fail. It's a risk from Telltale. It will be hard for them to bring in a character that we will care about as much as we did Lee because we won't wan't to get too attached to the next protagonist through fear of seeing them killed off again. Season 1 will be hard for telltale to top and will be even harder without Lee who was one of the best game protagonists we have seen in a while.

[Sodawasser]

It isn't the whole episode 1 group dead besides Clem. After the Lilly of the game isn't the same Lilly of the comics (like I heard) it is possible to see her again. I also wouldn't bet my money on it but it isn't impossible that they bring back Kenny too. "Only" Carley, Doug, Duck, Katjaa, Larry, Ben, Mark are surely dead (if you only count those which have been in the group for a longer time)
Maybe TellTale even troll our expections and let Omid/Christa die and Kenny survive^^

I don't think that they let them all die too early in the storyline. The death of Katjaa/Duck was dramatically and good. I really liked it to see how it changed Kenny, it was a good story.
Larrys death was also okay, without that death there would have been much less rivality in the group -> less drama -> worse story. Also the Lee death was good story telling in my opinion. I only agree about Carley/Doug. I didn't like their death because of nothing. I even think that this scene was the only one which could have been done better (I only speak about the story)

[dee23]

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

don't you think that by the hundredth life or death situation you would start to ignore the death possibility and just see Lee an an immortal hero destined to save the world.

that is how action heroes work, you know they wont die you just want to see how badass the way they take out the bad guys will be

Dude! not after 5 episodes. Are you aware of how long Rick Grimes and his 9 year old son Carl have been surviving this apocalypse? They have been through far more than Lee could have even imagined. Even Carl has been shot on 2 different occasions and no one see's them as invincible. The walking dead comics have some of the most realistic writing you will will ever read, pacing is the key to the comic's success. Characters don't die in every episode and key characters don't die in every story arc. Lee's 5 episodes equate to only 13 weeks of survival in the zombie apocalypse. Telltale were too trigger happy with regards to killing of their characters. When you compare the game characters lives to those in the comics they had it pretty easy. The were stationed in the motor inn for 3 months and died between 1 and 2 days after leaving it. Rick's group have spent most of the apocalypse on the road, moving from place to place. So I personally would not have seen Lee as an invincible character if he survived the 5 episodes considering that would only have been 13 weeks of survival, even Maggie has survived far longer and she tried to hang her self.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Zargus

I know but everyone amuses that because they have a favorite character or it is a main character then that character will be untouched when it is completely wrong.

I can't think of a protagonist that has been through more than Rick Grimes and he is still alive after more than a year. Taking that into account It would not have been outlandish to believe or expect Lee, the game's protagonist to survive more than 13 weeks, considering he had been protected by the motor inn for most of the 13 weeks. I loved Lee as a game character but by walking dead survival standards Telltale have portrayed Lee as being either extremely unlucky or as being a bit of a pussy. 13 weeks isn't shit. Supporting characters in the walking dead last longer. It would have been fine if episode 5 was the last in the story but now we know there will be at least 1 more season. If Clementine is in season 2 which I expect she will be it is still the same story. Killing of the protagonist mid way in a story is unwise. Telltale, now have the pressure of bringing in a new protagonist to live up to the high standard set by Lee. I'm intrigued by the idea of a second season but i'm not as excited about the idea of continuing the story with another protagonist if that is the direction Telltale are going in.

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by dee23

Dude! not after 5 episodes. Are you aware of how long Rick Grimes and his 9 year old son Carl have been surviving this apocalypse? They have been through far more than Lee could have even imagined. Even Carl has been shot on 2 different occasions and no one see's them as invincible. The walking dead comics have some of the most realistic writing you will will ever read, pacing is the key to the comic's success. Characters don't die in every episode and key characters don't die in every story arc. Lee's 5 episodes equate to only 13 weeks of survival in the zombie apocalypse. Telltale were too trigger happy with regards to killing of their characters. When you compare the game characters lives to those in the comics they had it pretty easy. The were stationed in the motor inn for 3 months and died between 1 and 2 days after leaving it. Rick's group have spent most of the apocalypse on the road, moving from place to place. So I personally would not have seen Lee as an invincible character if he survived the 5 episodes considering that would only have been 13 weeks of survival, even Maggie has survived far longer and she tried to hang her self.

i think some people do think of them as invincible, some people don't even like them and i would bet plot armour has something to do with that, I'm just glad we got a real ending to the season not just an end to an episode that leads onto the next, also you saw what got Lee, that could happen to anyone it's not because he sucks at surviving he just got caught and bitten

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Zargus

How was it useless? You taught Clem how to survive in this world. If my actions keep even one person alive for as long as possible after I have died then all my choices would have been worth it.



Yes but World War Z HAD an ending so people could survive from day one. The Walking Dead I am 100% sure will only end when sales in the comic book fall and so far I doubt that is going to happen even after Rick's approximate 300 Issue lifespan so The Walking Dead will have no ending. The world that everyone knew in The Walking Dead is gone and this is the world that everyone lives with now and will always live in. There is no going back and there is no way to stop the outbreak because everyone is infected.

Why do you think Robert Kirkman pitched the idea of making The Walking Dead TV Show with this line...."The Zombie Movie That Never Ends."? Because it is.

Well the walking dead is planned to have 300 issues, so Kirkman does plan to finish the story.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Zargus

How was it useless? You taught Clem how to survive in this world. If my actions keep even one person alive for as long as possible after I have died then all my choices would have been worth it.



Yes but World War Z HAD an ending so people could survive from day one. The Walking Dead I am 100% sure will only end when sales in the comic book fall and so far I doubt that is going to happen even after Rick's approximate 300 Issue lifespan so The Walking Dead will have no ending. The world that everyone knew in The Walking Dead is gone and this is the world that everyone lives with now and will always live in. There is no going back and there is no way to stop the outbreak because everyone is infected.

Why do you think Robert Kirkman pitched the idea of making The Walking Dead TV Show with this line...."The Zombie Movie That Never Ends."? Because it is.

Well the walking dead is planned to have 300 issues, so Kirkman does plan to finish the story. In interviews he has talked about being in 2 minds about killing of Rick but says if he does he would do it towards then end i.e towards the 300th episode.

Different people are going to see the ending differently. It's about outlook I suppose. Are you a cup half full or a half empty kind a guy. It's good that you can see something positive in the ending with the idea of your choices enabling Clementine's survival. Personally, I don't see the ending that way. There wasn't anything that you could have said in the game that would change the outcome. Clementine was predestined to survive episode 5 no matter what and Lee was predestined to die which is why the game does not continue if she is killed in the jewellery store. The game made you/us feel like you were contributing to her education but how many times in the series did Lee sit down and teach her about survival and how many of those moments were optional? As I remember in the game Lee didn't begin to prepare Clementine for life without him until the end of episode 3 when he taught her to shoot and advised her to keep her hair short. Lee engaged little with her in episode 4 since he kept getting split up, either deliberately when going off with Kenny to find a boat or when separated in the sewers and she was absent for most of episode 5. If you tell Clementine to avoid strangers or go to the country at the end It won't make a difference to her survival in season 2 because she will be written to survive one way or another if she is in season 2. It's an illusion that her survival is based on your choices as Lee in season 1. That is illusion but what was real was Lee's vision, his dream and goal after being bitten. The only thing he cared about was knowing that Clementine would be safe after he died and that she would be raised by Omid and Christa. Sadly Lee died not knowing if she would be safe and died before he could reunite her with Omid and Christa. He died during his mission. He died with out completing his mission. He couldn't continue to keep Clementine safe and reunite her with her new carers. In the end she had to keep her self safe by running and avoiding the walkers which is something she was doing since before Lee and her met.(Remember the forest at the beginning of episode 1)

The fact is, no matter how you look at it Lee got screwed over by Telltale for the purpose of shock value and to force an emotional impact. That is what Telltale were going for all along. They wanted people to be sad, cry and remember the experience. The ending was so sad many are trying to put a positive spin on it to make themselves feel better. Lee knew he had failed the moment he was bitten, hence his response. His motivation for survival has always been about keeping Clementine safe. Ep 5 he accepted he could not do this so the next best thing was for Omid and Christa to take on the torch of responsibility. He knew and felt that his death would only be worth while if he could get Clementine back from the stranger and hand her over to Omid and Christa who he could trust to take as good care for her as he would but his time ran out before he could do this. Even if Clementine did some how manage to find Omid and Christa which would have been Lee's dying wish, Lee would not have known she found them before he died. That is what is so tragic about the ending.

[Textbook]

I've seen Kirkman say that Rick will die eventually and that the series would continue on without him. I've also seen him say that he may end TWD around the 300th issue and I've also seen him say that he may just continue it until he's stopped.

Back on topic, TWD works as an emotional experience but fails as a game.

To feel some sense of achievement that I had properly prepared Clementine for survival, it would have to be possible for me not to achieve this. It isn't. She lives no matter what, meaning there's no achievement.

It would have been neat, after Lee's death, to have a sequence where we watch Clementine escape Savannah on her own, with all her decisions dependent on how Lee influenced her, with failure/death a possibiility if you prepared her inadequately.

[thestalkinghead]

yep the ending is tragic, it's why it was sad, if lee had died with Clementine, Omid and Christa it wouldn't really have the impact it had

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Sodawasser

It isn't the whole episode 1 group dead besides Clem. After the Lilly of the game isn't the same Lilly of the comics (like I heard) it is possible to see her again. I also wouldn't bet my money on it but it isn't impossible that they bring back Kenny too. "Only" Carley, Doug, Duck, Katjaa, Larry, Ben, Mark are surely dead (if you only count those which have been in the group for a longer time)
Maybe TellTale even troll our expections and let Omid/Christa die and Kenny survive^^

I don't think that they let them all die too early in the storyline. The death of Katjaa/Duck was dramatically and good. I really liked it to see how it changed Kenny, it was a good story.
Larrys death was also okay, without that death there would have been much less rivality in the group -> less drama -> worse story. Also the Lee death was good story telling in my opinion. I only agree about Carley/Doug. I didn't like their death because of nothing. I even think that this scene was the only one which could have been done better (I only speak about the story)

Why would you think that the Lilly in the game is a different Lilly from the comics? Telltale confirmed from day one that the game had cameo appearances; Glenn, Hershel and Lilly. That was their way of making the game authentic. Telltale said they thought it would be cool to show what shaped Lilly into becoming the character from Woodbury we see in the comics. The game is canon to the original comic's story and of the same branch from walking dead universe unlike the TV show. So by now Glenn from the game is with Rick, Hershel's barn holds walkers and Lilly is on the road to Woodbury or there already.

Regarding the point I made about the deaths in the story, I suppose that is down to opinion, but for me I didn't feel anything when, Chuck died,when Ben died, when Lee buried the boy in the attic and I wouldn't have been moved by Omnid or Christa's deaths because I barely knew these characters. My point was that all of the characters that I personally cared about were killed of by episode 3 accept Lee and Clementine. Although this is all only an opinion, I don't think anyone can deny that Cary dying in the sewer scene would have been more emotional than when Chuck died there.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

i think some people do think of them as invincible, some people don't even like them and i would bet plot armour has something to do with that, I'm just glad we got a real ending to the season not just an end to an episode that leads onto the next, also you saw what got Lee, that could happen to anyone it's not because he sucks at surviving he just got caught and bitten

No it doesn't. At no time has Carl worn body armor. When Rick was shot and put in a comma before the apocalypse he wasn't wearing body armor, When Carl was shot near Hershel's farm he wasn't wearing body armor, When Rick was shot in his stomach at the prison he wasn't wearing body armor and when Carl was shot in his face he wasn't wearing a bullet proof helmet. they had surgery and spent months in recovery. It was touch and go. Kirkman's way of showing us no one is safe in this world.

With regards to Lee getting bitten, of cause that could happen to anyone but it was a cheap death for a protagonist and a death more fitting for a "red shirt" or a supporting character. That is how Amy was bitten. I would bet anything and everything that her sister Andrea will be given a better death because of her alertness and ability to survive. Someone like Abraham would have been killed in a way that couldn't be prevented(an arrow to the back of the head). I couldn't imagine a character like him being surprised by a single walker, Kirkman would give them a better death, making them harder to kill.

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by dee23

No it doesn't. At no time has Carl worn body armor. When Rick was shot and put in a comma before the apocalypse he wasn't wearing body armor, When Carl was shot near Hershel's farm he wasn't wearing body armor, When Rick was shot in his stomach at the prison he wasn't wearing body armor and when Carl was shot in his face he wasn't wearing a bullet proof helmet. they had surgery and spent months in recovery. It was touch and go. Kirkman's way of showing us no one is safe in this world.

With regards to Lee getting bitten, of cause that could happen to anyone but it was a cheap death for a protagonist and a death more fitting for a "red shirt" or a supporting character. That is how Amy was bitten. I would bet anything and everything that her sister Andrea will be given a better death because of her alertness and ability to survive. Someone like Abraham would have been killed in a way that couldn't be prevented(an arrow to the back of the head). I couldn't imagine a character like him being surprised by a single walker, Kirkman would give them a better death, making them harder to kill.

plot armour http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor

and i didn't think it was cheap, but that's my opinion

[Master of Aeons]

I understand your argument that Lee dying at the end of 5 episodes being different compared to the hundreds of planned issues revolving around Rick. Telltale doesn't have as big of a story planned out as that though. There may be two seasons. Both of them will focus on Clem, but one is told through Lee's eyes. Killing off Lee midway through that arc isn't as bad when you look at the difference in scale. Rick's survived what I consider five major arcs (but Carl is the character I care more about). Clem will survive at least two. I don't think - in light of Clem's significance - that Lee deserves plot armor.