Team Lily to the end (appreciation thread)

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

Well if your only reason for joining is hating on Lilly, than there isn't really a point. You can do that in each of the 10000 topics that were created with that purpose The rules for the group are a bit different. Since we've gathered there to discuss well written characters, plain and unsupported hate is just... unnecessary. Civil tone is the pre-requirement for joining
It's your call, mate.

I'm not gonna troll i do think she is a great character and well written, in different circumstances she would have been on my "team", it was just that in my story she wasn't working along the same lines i was, a bit like larry if he never knew who Lee was or he had a different past i would have had him on my "team" once he calmed down about duck

[YamiRaziel]

I'm sorry guys, but the group doesn't work as fully as I intended it. For example, if you want to participate in our discussions, you will have to check the group manually as you won't be notified. There's nothing I can do, really, and I would love it if we form some cool discussions there.

[Ghositex]

Originally Posted by YamiRaziel

I'm sorry guys, but the group doesn't work as fully as I intended it. For example, if you want to participate in our discussions, you will have to check the group manually as you won't be notified. There's nothing I can do, really, and I would love it if we form some cool discussions there.

Manually checking! Woo!
Seems like we can e-mail subscribe the group, or certain discussion threads. Some (smart) phones let you connect your email accounts, so you get notified when you get a new email.. I barely check my mail, and I wouldn't want to actually read my mail on my phone, so I'll stick with regular group-checks. I just mentioned it in case anyone wanted to try

[YamiRaziel]

What's with all those appreciation threads You are so un-creative

[CarScar]

I have this love / hate relationship with Lilly:

• She was super badass
• But she killed Carley

• She was really attractive
• But she killed Carley

• She was a really interesting character
• But she killed Carley

• I supported her more than Kenny
• But she killed Carley

• I agreed with most of the things she said
• But she killed Carley

• She slayed the evil and vile Lori Grimes
• But she killed Carley

• I liked how she interacted with other characters
• But she killed Carley

• She obtained a really badass coat after episode one
• But she killed Carley

[Kiel555]

That was sad when Lilly shot Carley. I'm just glad she did not make a bad situation worse. She never asked to be thanked or praised for saving the group from a traitor. Never acted like murdering another group member had no affect on those who cared for Carley.

Her expression was shock and horror at what she had done. Regardless of what Lilly intended she realized she made a mistake and gone too far in the pursuit of a traitor.

Despite having killed Carley, there is still hope for Lilly and ultimately she did the right thing by leaving the group. It's tough to lead a group when you've gone too far, there is a traitor and your father's murderer is still waiting to be thanked for what he did!

I let Lilly back in the RV, still consider her my best friend and sure wish I could have gone with her.

[IceRyder]

OK, I know this is a Lilly fan thread but I can't help but disagree with all of your reasonings. Those points is something a fan(which I know you are) would say.

The Real Lilly Caul was nothing but a hypocritical, cold, paranoid, unreasonable, whiney, selfish, cowardly, lazy, backstabbing, murderous bitch.

I appreciate her leadership skills, her selflessness (having to make all those little decisions is really difficult) and her reasoning. She tried to keep this group together, she did her very best but some other people...like Kenny always tried to have it their way, always consider what's only best for his family.

Her idea of staying safe was staying at the Pharmacy, it's obvious she was clueless and didn't know what she was doing. She selfishly was willing to let Lee, Kenny and the rest to die and just stood there while her Dad was talking about throwing out a little kid. Even after the heart attack, she ran up to the guys that she didn't want to help and begged them to help her dad, good thing they had the heart to help. After meeting her, it's clear she was a Terrible Leader.

I see you condemn Kenny for only doing things for his family but that's where you're wrong, he's actually a better leader. At the Pharmacy, he took charge and decided to help Larry even though he had no reason(trying to throw his son out) but he still did, he played a key role in getting the group out of the pharmacy, went back to save someone who was not his family member(Lee) after he was left for dead by Lilly's dad and made the decision to fix the RV(in which Lilly was against) and we all know how useful that turned out to be. He even had the guts to take the food from the station wagon(against Lilly's wishes).

I think we all agree it was difficult giving the rations the first time in episode two. We got a glimpse of what she has to do every day. People hated us for those choices, so they hate her even more for having to do it every day. But there's no one else who would do it.

OK, the only one that seemed to be negative to Lilly was Kenny and only Kenny. Nobody else and if you don't give it to the kids including Clem who is also not Kenny's family, he'll be pissed with you. Lilly was over exaggerating thinking people hated her because she's insane. Besides, I'm sure rationing food was not as hard as going out in Walker infested woods to find it(Kenny, Mark, Lee), compared to them, she doesn't have it so bad.

She was still pretty reasonable until Kenny murdered her father. People can complain that he saved them and all that crap... but you couldn't have known for sure and that's the truth. He overreacted and again being the selfish asshole he is, he did the easiest choice for him. Eliminate the enemy and undermine the leader's authority.

Reasonable? She acted like you owed her father something! If you don't give him food, she'll tell you "that's cold" at the farm even though she knows that he already tried to kill you after you saved his life and constantly treated you and everybody else like thrash and expected you to do favours for him. She expected everybody to put up with his crap. And don't tell me she didn't know, Kenny & Clementine witnessed it and if Mark the new guy knows about then surely everybody at the camp knows, basically, the group is not big enough so there is no place for her to hide from the truth. And she even doesn't listen to Kenny's advice on leaving Macon, she's only staying just for the drug store for her dad(and you say that Kenny makes decisions for his family?)

And killing Larry. Put it this way, if he came back as a Walker, it would've been more difficult to take him out considering they had no weapons. Kenny had a reason to do what he did especially against a guy that didn't give his son the benefit of the doubt. What was Lilly's reason for murdering Carley? Nothing!

In episode 3 we see things haven't changed. Lily is still the only one to really tries to protect the group. Lee, of course, helps always and as much as he can, but others like Kenny... they didn't even feel bad for what they did in

No, Lilly was being lazy like always. Sitting her ass at the motel doing nothing and sends Lee & Kenny to scavenge food, Yeah, make the guy with a gun shot wound get supplies. That would keep you alive right?. And Kenny looked traumatized for what he did to Larry, he even said sorry.

episode 2. Kenny ruined this group and yet he still wanted things to go his way. He kept pushing Lily without really doing anything for the group. He was determined to abandon all.

OK, Kenny was looking for food & fixing the RV, yeah, how is that doing nothing, Lilly on the other hand was sitting her ass doing nothing. Kenny was the one that suspected the St Johns up to no good while Lilly was clueless, didn't want him snooping around. Kenny saved the group, out of the two, he was the only one that had the balls to do anything. And how did he abandon all? he even asked Lee if he wanted to come with, and in the end he took everybody including the one that didn't want him fixing it(Lilly)

Carley... she didn't really do anything. She could've stepped in and helped Lily when she saw she was about to snap... but she didn't. The only thing she actually did was tease Lee, look cute, and avoid participation in almost every important discussion. The downfall in episode 3 is partially her fault as well.

Seriously???
You're blaming Carley and saying she did nothing? Really??
Who saved Lee twice, who assisted him and discovered the motel, who assisted him to the farm, who went back to save the group from the St Johns, who shot Andy St John in the ear that gave Lee enough time to get the gun away from him, who helped lee fight off bandits and walkers.
And you say that's nothing? She did more then what Lilly has ever done.

And how was the downfall her fault? We have not witnessed one group discussion, is it because she didn't want to get involved in the Lilly/Kenny conflicts which was smart on her part. Blaming her is like saying it's the rape victims fault that they were raped.

When the bandits attacked the group it was again Lily that came to the rescue to a group that hated her.

She did it to save her own ass, she was lucky the bandits didn't execute the rest of the group after the shot she took. And don't forget, Kenny's RV got them out of there as well, the RV in which Lilly told him was a waste of time.

Kenny wouldn't swallow my disrespect for him and actually tried to get me killed too many times in this episode.

Explain how he nearly got you killed?
He saved your ass countless times, it was Lilly who nearly got you killed by nearly letting you die in Ep2, by sending you out to find more food in a Walker infested city.

Ben... and Kenny really started a chain reaction. With both their stupidity combined they managed to indirectly kill Carley, Katjaa and Duck as well destroy the group from within.

Ben got Katjaa & Duck killed. Your hero Lilly murdered Carley for no dam reason. Kenny saved the group with the RV and from Larry(to prevent him from turning). Lilly was the one that ripped the group apart.

Both cowards and both DUBM as a bag of hammers.

Lilly had no balls to kill someone to their face, she waited until their back was turned and stole the RV because she's a true COWARD. She was dumb enough to believe the Motel was safe.

She's a hypocrite and a liar, So it's okay to let people get eaten in the streets(kenny's group) and woods(Ben's group) because it could jeopardise the group but it's not okay to let people get eaten in the streets even though it could jeopardise the group(Woman on the street). She's Unreasonable & Whiney, Kenny tries telling her Motels not safe, but she doesn't listen, that put the group in jeopardy from the bandit attack, she volunteers you for stuff such as going to the Farm and even if you reject that, she riles everyone up for you to go, and she has the nerve to tell you why you brought her there even though she sent you out there in the first place.

She's lazy, sits at the motel doing nothing and sends other people to do shit she should be taking part in. And lastly, she's a paranpoid murderer, she killed an innocent person for no reason, that makes her much worse then what Kenny did to her dad. She was pressuring Ben to admitting it was her when she had no proof then killed her because she defended herself, how can people justify what she did. I know she lost her dad but that doesn't give her a good reason. If she killed Carley, who never did a damn thing to her, then she'll kill anyone and the comics prove it. She didn't even look sorry after killing Carley, she still tried to justify her actions and you say Kenny was never sorry, what about Lilly?

Lastly, she's a selfish backstabbing bitch, she puts lee on the spot whether you sided with her or not by telling Kenny that you're a murderer, hoping to cause some tension between the two and steals the RV after you were kind enough to take her, Kenny fixes the RV and she takes it, killing you and others including Clementine, the sweet little girl that you say cares about her. The RV was useless but she did not know that, she did it to save herself, if she wanted to part ways with dignity, she should've ran instead of taking something that left the people that protected you for months vulnerable.

Bottom Line, your arguments for her make no sense, it's like you took traits from other characters and placed them on Lilly.

I see some people compare her to Rick Grimes? Unless he starts killing innocent people and is lazy then he's more like Lilly but She's more like Shane Walsh. Both are Lazy, both send other people to do things, both refuse to help people even their own group, both are backstabbers and both kill innocent people though Lilly does have extra aspects that make her worse.

Lilly is worse than Shane & Lori(TV series) put togeather.

[dukeleto]

Originally Posted by IceRyder

OK, I know this is a Lilly fan thread but I can't help but disagree with all of your reasonings. Those points is something a fan(which I know you are) would say.

The Real Lilly Caul was nothing but a hypocritical, cold, paranoid, unreasonable, whiney, selfish, cowardly, lazy, backstabbing, murderous bitch.



Her idea of staying safe was staying at the Pharmacy, it's obvious she was clueless and didn't know what she was doing. She selfishly was willing to let Lee, Kenny and the rest to die and just stood there while her Dad was talking about throwing out a little kid. Even after the heart attack, she ran up to the guys that she didn't want to help and begged them to help her dad, good thing they had the heart to help. After meeting her, it's clear she was a Terrible Leader.

I see you condemn Kenny for only doing things for his family but that's where you're wrong, he's actually a better leader. At the Pharmacy, he took charge and decided to help Larry even though he had no reason(trying to throw his son out) but he still did, he played a key role in getting the group out of the pharmacy, went back to save someone who was not his family member(Lee) after he was left for dead by Lilly's dad and made the decision to fix the RV(in which Lilly was against) and we all know how useful that turned out to be. He even had the guts to take the food from the station wagon(against Lilly's wishes).



OK, the only one that seemed to be negative to Lilly was Kenny and only Kenny. Nobody else and if you don't give it to the kids including Clem who is also not Kenny's family, he'll be pissed with you. Lilly was over exaggerating thinking people hated her because she's insane. Besides, I'm sure rationing food was not as hard as going out in Walker infested woods to find it(Kenny, Mark, Lee), compared to them, she doesn't have it so bad.



Reasonable? She acted like you owed her father something! If you don't give him food, she'll tell you "that's cold" at the farm even though she knows that he already tried to kill you after you saved his life and constantly treated you and everybody else like thrash and expected you to do favours for him. She expected everybody to put up with his crap. And don't tell me she didn't know, Kenny & Clementine witnessed it and if Mark the new guy knows about then surely everybody at the camp knows, basically, the group is not big enough so there is no place for her to hide from the truth. And she even doesn't listen to Kenny's advice on leaving Macon, she's only staying just for the drug store for her dad(and you say that Kenny makes decisions for his family?)

And killing Larry. Put it this way, if he came back as a Walker, it would've been more difficult to take him out considering they had no weapons. Kenny had a reason to do what he did especially against a guy that didn't give his son the benefit of the doubt. What was Lilly's reason for murdering Carley? Nothing!



No, Lilly was being lazy like always. Sitting her ass at the motel doing nothing and sends Lee & Kenny to scavenge food, Yeah, make the guy with a gun shot wound get supplies. That would keep you alive right?. And Kenny looked traumatized for what he did to Larry, he even said sorry.



OK, Kenny was looking for food & fixing the RV, yeah, how is that doing nothing, Lilly on the other hand was sitting her ass doing nothing. Kenny was the one that suspected the St Johns up to no good while Lilly was clueless, didn't want him snooping around. Kenny saved the group, out of the two, he was the only one that had the balls to do anything. And how did he abandon all? he even asked Lee if he wanted to come with, and in the end he took everybody including the one that didn't want him fixing it(Lilly)



Seriously???
You're blaming Carley and saying she did nothing? Really??
Who saved Lee twice, who assisted him and discovered the motel, who assisted him to the farm, who went back to save the group from the St Johns, who shot Andy St John in the ear that gave Lee enough time to get the gun away from him, who helped lee fight off bandits and walkers.
And you say that's nothing? She did more then what Lilly has ever done.

And how was the downfall her fault? We have not witnessed one group discussion, is it because she didn't want to get involved in the Lilly/Kenny conflicts which was smart on her part. Blaming her is like saying it's the rape victims fault that they were raped.



She did it to save her own ass, she was lucky the bandits didn't execute the rest of the group after the shot she took. And don't forget, Kenny's RV got them out of there as well, the RV in which Lilly told him was a waste of time.



Explain how he nearly got you killed?
He saved your ass countless times, it was Lilly who nearly got you killed by nearly letting you die in Ep2, by sending you out to find more food in a Walker infested city.



Ben got Katjaa & Duck killed. Your hero Lilly murdered Carley for no dam reason. Kenny saved the group with the RV and from Larry(to prevent him from turning). Lilly was the one that ripped the group apart.



Lilly had no balls to kill someone to their face, she waited until their back was turned and stole the RV because she's a true COWARD. She was dumb enough to believe the Motel was safe.

She's a hypocrite and a liar, So it's okay to let people get eaten in the streets(kenny's group) and woods(Ben's group) because it could jeopardise the group but it's not okay to let people get eaten in the streets even though it could jeopardise the group(Woman on the street). She's Unreasonable & Whiney, Kenny tries telling her Motels not safe, but she doesn't listen, that put the group in jeopardy from the bandit attack, she volunteers you for stuff such as going to the Farm and even if you reject that, she riles everyone up for you to go, and she has the nerve to tell you why you brought her there even though she sent you out there in the first place.

She's lazy, sits at the motel doing nothing and sends other people to do shit she should be taking part in. And lastly, she's a paranpoid murderer, she killed an innocent person for no reason, that makes her much worse then what Kenny did to her dad. She was pressuring Ben to admitting it was her when she had no proof then killed her because she defended herself, how can people justify what she did. I know she lost her dad but that doesn't give her a good reason. If she killed Carley, who never did a damn thing to her, then she'll kill anyone and the comics prove it. She didn't even look sorry after killing Carley, she still tried to justify her actions and you say Kenny was never sorry, what about Lilly?

Lastly, she's a selfish backstabbing bitch, she puts lee on the spot whether you sided with her or not by telling Kenny that you're a murderer, hoping to cause some tension between the two and steals the RV after you were kind enough to take her, Kenny fixes the RV and she takes it, killing you and others including Clementine, the sweet little girl that you say cares about her. The RV was useless but she did not know that, she did it to save herself, if she wanted to part ways with dignity, she should've ran instead of taking something that left the people that protected you for months vulnerable.

Bottom Line, your arguments for her make no sense, it's like you took traits from other characters and placed them on Lilly.

I see some people compare her to Rick Grimes? Unless he starts killing innocent people and is lazy then he's more like Lilly but She's more like Shane Walsh. Both are Lazy, both send other people to do things, both refuse to help people even their own group, both are backstabbers and both kill innocent people though Lilly does have extra aspects that make her worse.

Lilly is worse than Shane & Lori(TV series) put togeather.

I'm sorry to say that, but you read her character all wrong, my friend.
We already talked about her, about Kenny,etc... so I don't want to repeat myself.
But, I'm sure you can find some clues for why some of people-like me- are in love with her and why they don't share your thoughts, up above the earlier comments. Then, maybe you'd like to read "F*** Kenny" thread, too.

The only thing I can say in short, I don't think none of your inferences about Lilly is reasonable.
But, these're only my thoughts though.

[Danno123]

Can I just appreciate them both?....
Team Lenny FOR LIFE!...
No?... OK :C
Also, can we stop with the "She killed Carley!" stuff? She also killed Doug, even if it wasn't intentional.
But I honestly do appreciate her, from the food, to her father, to her going crazy. She couldn't help it with Kenny being a bit stupid along the way.

[dukeleto]

Originally Posted by Danno123

Can I just appreciate them both?....
Team Lenny FOR LIFE!...
No?... OK :C

Hehe, of course you can. And you have a point.
From my side, I personally don't believe none of the characters were purely evil and none of them made their choices by meaning, I mean with evil purposes.
Some of them were dumper than others. That's all.

*Haha, you edited simultaneously. As you see I'm completely with you with that "stupidity" thing

[Danno123]

Originally Posted by dukeleto

Hehe, of course you can. And you have a point.
From my side, I personally don't believe none of the characters were purely evil and none of them made their choices by meaning, I mean with evil purposes.
Some of them were dumper than others. That's all.

*Haha, you edited simultaneously. As you see I'm completely with you with that "stupidity" thing

Ahh, you got me. :P
But yeah, with that evil intentions thing, I agree completely.
Kenny didn't mean to do anything evil, just protect his family.
Lilly didn't mean to do anything evil, just to protect her father and the group.
Heck, even BEN didn't mean to do anything evil, just wanted his friend back.

[IceRyder]

I'm sorry to say that, but you read her character all wrong, my friend.
We already talked about her, about Kenny,etc... so I don't want to repeat myself.
But, I'm sure you can find some clues for why some of people-like me- are in love with her and why they don't share your thoughts, up above the earlier comments. Then, maybe you'd like to read "F*** Kenny" thread, too.

The only thing I can say in short, I don't think none of your inferences about Lilly is reasonable.
But, these're only my thoughts though.

I read the first 3 pages, all saying "Lilly is a badass", I was not gonna read over 20 pages of that but within those 3 pages, only kirby18 had the right thought about her and was put down YamiRaziel saying things about Lilly which are not accurate. I read the first 2 pages of "F*** KENNY", it's basically a kenny bashing thread and again, I was not gonna through 50 pages of that and I'm not saying Kenny was perfect but he's no where near as bad as Lilly.

I believe I read her character right, I even brought up moments in the game that showed her to be Hypocritical, Lazy, Unreasonable and so on.

Some clues of why people like her? Well, every character has a fan base even horrible ones, The Governor, Negan, Larry, Shane so I just went with that.

Also, can we stop with the "She killed Carley!" stuff? She also killed Doug, even if it wasn't intentional.

Why not? She killed an innocent person that didn't need to die, that's where she crossed the line. Heck, if you Lilly fans keep brining up Kenny killing Larry and making him to be a horrible character then Lilly killing is much worse.

[Danno123]

Originally Posted by IceRyder

Why not? She killed an innocent person that didn't need to die, that's where she crossed the line. Heck, if you Lilly fans keep brining up Kenny killing Larry and making him to be a horrible character then Lilly killing is much worse.

I'm not a Lilly "fan", I'm a Kenny "fan". I quote fan because I support some of their decisions, and not all of them. I mentioned Carley because people complain about Carley, but not Doug. I saved Doug so I was pissed at Lilly for killing Doug, not Carley.

[dukeleto]

Originally Posted by IceRyder

I read the first 3 pages, all saying "Lilly is a badass", I was not gonna read over 20 pages of that but within those 3 pages, only kirby18 had the right thought about her and was put down YamiRaziel saying things about Lilly which are not accurate. I read the first 2 pages of "F*** KENNY", it's basically a kenny bashing thread and again, I was not gonna through 50 pages of that and I'm not saying Kenny was perfect but he's no where near as bad as Lilly.

I believe I read her character right, I even brought up moments in the game that showed her to be Hypocritical, Lazy, Unreasonable and so on.

Some clues of why people like her? Well, every character has a fan base even horrible ones, The Governor, Negan, Larry, Shane so I just went with that.



Why not? She killed an innocent person that didn't need to die, that's where she crossed the line. Heck, if you Lilly fans keep brining up Kenny killing Larry and making him to be a horrible character then Lilly killing is much worse.

Hello dear Kennylover,

I pointed earlier comments because I didn't want to repeat myself.
But since you look willing to discuss, I may prepare a brief from my own earlier posts. If you read, you can see why people (like me) likes Lilly and doesn't like Kenny:

1)
Your Kenny's sins&faults ARE three times better than our Lilly.
You can only claim her for not doing that "rationing thing right" or for killing Carley, or stealing the RV. And what then? ? ?

But I can claim Kenny for not helping Shawn (when he took his own boy he can drop him down and obey him to wind up to his mother and come back to help instead of getting away), I can claim him for killing Larry or stealing from car or leaving me behind with zombies in that drugstore(Ep.03) or pushing me to the edge with his terrible ideas about leaving- killing somebody or something else he wants...
Or I can claim him for wanting a teenager to die or drinking in a serious situation instead of cooperating with me or for not looking after Clementine, or his desire of not taking everybody on boat, or for yelling at me any single chance he had and criticizing all my decisions...
If you don't choose "Kenny, I need you" or "Clem is like a family" dialogs in the end, he is turning around and leaving Lee be. WHAT A LIFETIME BRO!

2)
It is ridicilous to drink if you are sticking with a group. If you are willing to drink, then go somewhere else or leave the group be as Lilly did, then drink how much you like.
I can understand his bad feelings after he saw that boy in the attic and I can understand he is drinking because of his grief, but what about Clem? How can he turn his eyes away from her? If he has completely lost his hope for survival; what is he doing along them?

Lee might be away, Lee might get lost or he might disappear by a sever hole, and what should Kenny do after him? His first thing to do after they came back to their shelter was drinking! Sorry, but I can't forgive this.
He caused Clem to get lost, but even so he continued reprove Lee severely about the boat, about how they will die etc etc...
Man, you shouldn't suppose,guess -or whatever- a child that he/she might do or not. You should keep your eyes on them. As always Lee were trying to do. A child is a child, nothing more.

3)
I know Lilly IS a murderer and I don't try to reason her behaviour but,
A)She was "so sure" that someone was helping the bandits: and it was True.
B)She was just too depressed and angry with that traitor issue, as it caused a little boy to get bitten, and the lost of the motor inn: and it was True.
C)She ran away, but "I think" she was too ashamed for what she did to continue with the group and maybe she thought it won't be good to be with them neighter for them nor herself: and I think it was True.
D)No matter what, she were always strong and she were in a good harmony with others until she lost her father: and it is True.
E) So, I think she is not a cruel person but she has a very dramatic ending: and it is True for me.

4)
It is not the issue here: killing Larry.
The issue here is killing Larry in cold blood in front of his daughter without leaving any little God damn minute to say goodbye. Lilly would be ok if she could spread her last moments with her most beloved (and only left) family member. Maybe some last words...
I even don't mention the possibility of saving Larry.
Such rudeness and selfishness. This is nothing about "hard things must be done sometimes" kinda quote.
This is all independent and most unrespectful thing to do.

And please don't try to tell us fairytales, Kenny did not do it for the well of the group but he mostly did it to take revenge from Larry for the argument of Duck's bitten issue. He always wanted to get rid of Lilly-Larry coalition, as he is desperately desiring of that leader role of the group (which I don't know why and with which faculty?), he got the chance and used it precisely.

5)
Well, I prefer a confused Lilly than a shifty Kenny with me as a companion. Or I prefer her to a "good girl" Carley who never assumed responsibility when though decisions are being made. I loved her too, and I'm not saying she deserved it. But this is WD universe man, You can not just push someone's -with a gun- buttons (hence if she is half mentally ill because of her father's death) freely by yelling at her with insults. I'm trying to keep my sympathies on Lilly, cause she did nothing unstable or bad before her unfortunate lost.

6)
Who says that there was a need for "a leader" when Lee was there?
He is doing AALLL the stuff and I me myself have no intensions for seeking another leader. Who gave Kenny that title? What did he do to earn it? During the whole game, driving that RV I guess.

7)
When it comes decision time;
Lilly was always waiting for the first words from Lee and she looked into Lee's eyes before she opened her mouth to talk.
Cause she had much respect to Lee's ideas.
But Kenny,
His first reactions was always so loud. He was shouting, arguing etc... etc...

8)
In spite of I were there for him for nearly all occasions, he was still acting like a loser just because I didn't smash Larry's head, didn't steal from a lone car, didn't leave the lone girl to suffer and didn't drop an innocent young man but other than these I was always there with ALL MY SUPPORT to see him satisfied?
Kenny can call someone "friend" if they helped him to bust some guy's face.
Kenny can call someone "friend" if they helped him to steal from a lone car.
Kenny can call someone "friend" if they let an innocent young boy to fall down from the belltower.
Kenny's reservations for becoming friends are terrific.

How much was enough to see him acting like a real man? What did I do wrong to not receive at least such a little satisfaction? I was not expecting anything for Lee, if he could act rightfully in general, he would be ok for me like Larry.

But he chose to push me into hard situations.
Do you really think that any of my "failures" above is fail of "ethics" ?

Well my dear fellow, what type of a guy is that Kenny guy ? ? ?


9)
There is something in the world entitle : Respect. Respect to other people's feelings&sufferings.Kenny made a breaking point. And contrary to Lilly, he made this kind of things severely!

10)
I strongly recommend you to watch TV series - if you haven't seen them yet, so you can see how people (especially the group leaders) react to those who are about to lose their family members.

Yes, this is a Zombie Apocalypse which means that it is for everyone, every single person is experiencing the same nightmare and NO ONE is different than the other when you check hard situations, griefs, family issues, etc...

For further information, please watch Andrea&Amy scene and look for Rick's reaction.
For more further information, please watch Tyreese&Ben's mother scene- look for Carl's reaction.
A true leader respects people's feelings.
Different from these examples, in the game our group was trapped in that meat locker I know, but I think even if a little boy like Carl could treat reasonable with family issues, a man with a family should have known better.
If it WAS the purpose- blocking Larry from harming anyone in that meat locker- I'd put some salt licks on Larry's different body parts to limit his possible zombie movements than instantly busting Larry's head.

Because I HAVE A BRAIN which I can use whenever I need.

But if it was the purpose to kill him, well it depends...

On the other hand LEEME was there and I really pissed of when Kenny involved the situation which I was already taking care of.

Now you'll SURELY continue to defend a man(by saying he did everything for his family) who were DOING NOTHING to search for an escape while LEEYOU were looking for an exit from that meat locker.
Pretty please try to remember his words while you were trying to examine the air went and please remember his answer when you asked him if he had any tools on himself suitable to use on those screws.
Last time I checked he was not looking like a mainstay of a family who was dying by scratching the walls to save his family.

God forgive Kenny. I hope he has died in that alley (or in dark room) for the well of the universe.

11)
For me, there is only ONE explanation to the situation above all other excuses:

Kenny doesn't care others' lives and feelings + Kenny panicked + Kenny doesn't have the balls + Kenny looked for a revenge + Kenny wanted to hold all strings in his hands + Kenny was trembling with the idea of a painful death

=

Kenny murdered Larry with no hesitation. Dastardly.

He could wait a little until Lilly saw the situation is ending no good and until she accepts her father's fate. He'd tell her to go to a corner and cover her ears before making any attempt, though.

12)
The thing I want you to focus most is:

I'm NOT arguing killing Larry. The thing here is: KILLING HIM BEFORE UNDERSTANDING HIS CONDITION, SO FAST, SO CRUEL, AND SO UNRESPECTFULLY.
Yes, no matter what may be the results, again, there is no right of him doing it. Who is Kenny? Executioner? Who said he could decide who will live, or who will die?
NO one but NO ONE has the right to act like an executioner when it comes to family issues. Kenny shouldn't KILL Larry, because simply he has NO right to do it. Simple. No .ucking right on someone else's life.
No matter what it was not, never, ever, no way, hell no- his duty.

Kenny broke the first and the most important rule (and on my angle he caused a chain reaction on others- like Lilly killing Carley etc.)

He can say " I did it for my family, and for my own life... My life was at stake, too", again this is ok for me too. But after he committed suicide and after he remained alive, he'd pay for what he did. If he only had the balls...
The thing I'm trying to say is here, HE MAY ACT AS HE WANTS OR AS HE FINDS NECESSARY (in spite of he has no right to do so) , BUT AFTER DOING THE DIRTY WORK HE MUST FACE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES. HE MIGHT HAVE TAKEN THE RESPONSIBILITY OF HIS ACTIONS. But he didn't.

If this is not enough, he dared to come with an argument with Lilly, about leaving or not leaving the motel. If I were him, I could never look into her eyes because of blaming myself. And mostly because of this, LeeMe didn't think busting Larry's head even just for only one second. I knew I will never explain Lilly how I could act that selfish and that cowardy.
Kenny couldn't load his sins, but Lilly did. She left the group just after she murdered Carley. I agree she crossed the line but she took responsibility of her actions(yes with stealing their only vehicle).


13)
Kenny suddenly came into Lilly's group and started giving orders, making decisions, busting heads etc... So ridiculous.

14)
And I'm trying to be reasonable with someone who makes instant deadly mistakes like Lilly. Her reacton was so humanistic to me- it was so primitive, it was so weak which makes all of us "human".
But I can't support someone whose actions are slippery, cowardy and treachery. And I can't call him a friend in long term. I don't know if I could express myself; I love Lilly because her mistake was about her bad instincts, and I don't love Kenny because his (ton of) mistakeS were all about his personality.

You are completely free to love Kenny who always pushes you around, forcing you into hard situations, yelling at you, complaining you etc, and I can love an unfortunate murderer. I'm not even talking about claiming the leader role while Kenny has NO way anything about it. He was always all irritating with his words, with his ideas, and with his actions and I'm really speechless how can people call him "friend" after he pushes Lee away when Lee tried to talk to him on that train.


15)
I am sorry for you Kennylovers, but not Lilly, not Larry, not Ben, and even not radioman was the reason they are all dead and everything messed up. But with not giving respect to any others' feelings, Kenny did start everything.


So,

I prefer a "murderer" with a good attitude than a presuming traitor if I have to call someone "friend".


I'm really sorry if I bored you all, with this long post. But, I think this is good for me to get my words together if I ever want to point my opinion on Lilly&Kenny again.

[DreadMagus]

Originally Posted by IceRyder

I read the first 3 pages, all saying "Lilly is a badass", I was not gonna read over 20 pages of that but within those 3 pages,

Which of course instantly adds validity to your argument....

Since you're so eager to disregard what others have said in a thread this long and debated - we should disregard you then? I mean, fair's fair right?

I mean you're obviously breaking new ground, since you just ignored 21 pages of discussion and arguments to add fuel to a pile of embers.....

[Rock114]

Dare I attempt to scale the wall of text that is page 24?

[DreadMagus]

Go get 'em tiger.

[IceRyder]

To Danno123

I mentioned Carley because people complain about Carley, but not Doug. I saved Doug so I was pissed at Lilly for killing Doug, not Carley.

That's because majority of the gamers saved her. Both deaths are messed but Carley's was much worse because Lilly intended to kill her while Doug’s was an accident.

Now to dukeleto

Hello dear Kennylover,

I pointed earlier comments because I didn't want to repeat myself.
But since you look willing to discuss, I may prepare a brief from my own earlier posts. If you read, you can see why people (like me) likes Lilly and doesn't like Kenny:

I am not a Kenny Lover but he's no where near as bad as Lilly. I just have common sense to see Lilly for what she is and not what I want her to be. YamiRaziel seems to be the biggest Lilly fanatic and his reasoning’s make no sense so I take it that's what all you Lilly fans arguments to excuse her behaviour are like. From what I've seen, Kenny outshined Lilly, his decisions proved affective and her fans hate him for it.

1)
Your Kenny's sins&faults ARE three times better than our Lilly.
You can only claim her for not doing that "rationing thing right" or for killing
Carley, or stealing the RV. And what then? ? ?

But I can claim Kenny for not helping Shawn (when he took his own boy he can drop him down and obey him to wind up to his mother and come back to help instead of getting away), I can claim him for killing Larry or stealing from car or leaving me behind with zombies in that drugstore(Ep.03) or pushing me to the edge with his terrible ideas about leaving- killing somebody or something else he wants...
Or I can claim him for wanting a teenager to die or drinking in a serious situation instead of cooperating with me or for not looking after Clementine, or his desire of not taking everybody on boat, or for yelling at me any single chance he had and criticizing all my decisions...
If you don't choose "Kenny, I need you" or "Clem is like a family" dialogs in the end, he is turning around and leaving Lee be. WHAT A LIFETIME BRO!

It's clear you have not read my arguments that list her flaws and why her sins are much worse. But I'll just examine your arguments and pick them apart.

Granted Kenny messed up and let Shawn Green die, I'm not defending that, but at least he felt guilty, he had been beating himself up for months, in the train, he breaks down if Lee would bring it up, even if you decide to save Duck, Kenny still takes all the responsibility of Shawn’s death on him, he doesn't bring Lee into the blame. At least he felt some guilt, I can't say the same for Lilly who felt nothing.

As for Larry, he did it to prevent him from turning. The guy did after all threaten to throw his son out to be eaten alive, did not apologize after being proven wrong, Kenny still tried to help him, he left his friend for dead and became difficult to live with. Let's not forget Kenny was not all to blame, the guy knew he had a bad heart but still went smacking away, Kenny even told him to shut up while Lilly was throwing up(some leader huh, can't even manage her own father). Look through his point of view, 6"4 300 pound possible dead guy can come back as an unstoppable killing machine at any minute, he had to act fast, though he did act harshly but then again, Larry did try to kill you and will do so again. Even what he did, he at least had a reason.

I'll admit, him leaving you at the drug store like that was messed up but then again, Lilly does that as well, I don't see you condemning her. And the leaving thing, yeah, it turns out to be not such a bad idea after all. He had it right. Lilly put the group in danger by keeping them at the motel with a bandit attack that can strike at any moment and food running out in Macon.

Have you forgot that the teenager got his family killed and have you also forgot that Lilly tried to kill that teenager and Lilly fans were saying she was right in doing so. So if Kenny does it, it's bad, but if Lilly does it, it's good? Makes your arguments look one sided doesn't it. Let's not forget Lilly wanted Kenny dead so how is Kenny wanting Ben dead any different and knowing the cunt that Lilly is, she would've wanted Lee to drop Kenny if it came to that. Besides, he redeems himself with that teenager by forgiving him and being with him in his final moment and allows himself to be devoured just to put him out of his misery. Would Lilly do that? No, the real Lilly abandoned them.

Drinking in a situation, really, you're angry at him for that? Put it this way, he's plan is over, there is no boat to escape, a guy on the radio is stalking them. And not taking everyone on the boat, well he can't can he, it's only enough for five people, you're blaming him because they didn't find a yacht in the garage really? And him yelling at you, how many times has Lilly done that and criticized your decisions? Again, you're making this one sided.

And him stealing from the car, the only person to blame for that was the idiot owner of the car for leaving it there in the first place. With Mark gone and him injured, it was going to be hard for him to find food even before and he saw the opportunity and took it because he knew lazy Lilly was going to have him scavenge anyway and he needed to get food for his friends & family.

And the last one, Kenny judging you because you didn't side with him, people are like that, at least he's willing to take you on the boat and may I ask you where is Lilly, oh that's right, robbed you, abandoned you and left your group for dead. She's a real hero isn't she.

2)
It is ridicilous to drink if you are sticking with a group. If you are willing to drink, then go somewhere else or leave the group be as Lilly did, then drink how much you like.
I can understand his bad feelings after he saw that boy in the attic and I can understand he is drinking because of his grief, but what about Clem? How can he turn his eyes away from her? If he has completely lost his hope for survival; what is he doing along them?

Lee might be away, Lee might get lost or he might disappear by a sever hole, and what should Kenny do after him? His first thing to do after they came back to their shelter was drinking! Sorry, but I can't forgive this.
He caused Clem to get lost, but even so he continued reprove Lee severely about the boat, about how they will die etc etc...
Man, you shouldn't suppose,guess -or whatever- a child that he/she might do or not. You should keep your eyes on them. As always Lee were trying to do. A child is a child, nothing more.

Again. Why is this a big deal?
They were clear of danger at that point.
The man lost his family, found a dead boy that looked like his son, found that his plans to escape on a boat was dust and realised it was all for nothing while being stalked by The Stranger, all in one day, he's obviously struggling and gave up and is drinking in grief. And not watching Clem, well Clem did wander off in Lee's presence that led to her being kidnapped by the Stranger so blaming him for not watching her is hypocritical considering you didn't watch her as well.

You can't forgive this yet you can forgive Lilly for murdering an innocent person and leaving 6 people for dead???

And now you're blaming him for Clem dissappearing? How is it his fault to begin with? she was in the house with Lee while he was working on the boat. It was Lee's responsibility but I'm not going to blame him either. And how did he continue to reprove Lee about the boat? He didn't mention it when he found out Clem was kidnapped, if you're counting about that time he said he was not going to leave it unguarded, well that's smart thinking, he's not dumb like the Stranger and was right, Vernon ended up stealing it so it should've been guarded though he was unsuccessful at guarding it if he stayed behind but at least he put up a fight.

And you're last sentence, "A child is a child, nothing more."
Tell me what Lilly did, oh I remember, she abandoned the Child and left not one but two for dead and yet somehow Kenny is a monster and she's a Saint?

3)
I know Lilly IS a murderer and I don't try to reason her behaviour but,
A)She was "so sure" that someone was helping the bandits: and it was True.
B)She was just too depressed and angry with that traitor issue, as it caused a little boy to get bitten, and the lost of the motor inn: and it was True.
C)She ran away, but "I think" she was too ashamed for what she did to continue with the group and maybe she thought it won't be good to be with them neighter for them nor herself: and I think it was True.
D)No matter what, she were always strong and she were in a good harmony with others until she lost her father: and it is True.
E) So, I think she is not a cruel person but she has a very dramatic ending: and it is True for me.

A) And she was pointing fingers at anyone, she even tried to accuse Lee so how was she supposed to be taken seriously with her ramblings, even I knew at that point that the traitor was doing it to keep the bandits off there back.
B) She didn't know the little boy was bitten and the loss of the motor inn was her fault, even if there was no traitor, bandits would've attacked them and possibly have killed them because she arrogantly believed the motor inn was a safe haven.
C) I would believe that, if she didn't take the RV!! You want to go to spare your friends of your misery then you're welcome to go but don't take something that you never worked on and that something will make the group that includes 2 innocent kids and possibly your friend(if you sided with her) vulnerable, leaving them for dead. The fact that she stole the RV proved that she was nothing but a Backstabbing Weasel looking out for herself. Heck, she didn't even look guilty, she looked like she didn't give a F***. I don't buy that she was ashamed, she knew exactly what she did and didn't feel bad due to her cold, emotionless reaction upon taking the RV.
D) She killed an innocent person when their back was turned, doesn't do anything, whines and complains, is a bully, is a rotten thief that would leave a little girl to die. Yeah, where is the strong in that?
E) She took the life of an innocent person for no reason other than her own personal feelings and cowardly left 6 people for dead. She's no different from The Governor & Negan. She's above cruel.

These 5 are very true, what you have is again, making her out to be something she's not.

4)
It is not the issue here: killing Larry.
The issue here is killing Larry in cold blood in front of his daughter without leaving any little God damn minute to say goodbye. Lilly would be ok if she could spread her last moments with her most beloved (and only left) family member. Maybe some last words...
I even don't mention the possibility of saving Larry.
Such rudeness and selfishness. This is nothing about "hard things must be done sometimes" kinda quote.
This is all independent and most unrespectful thing to do.

And please don't try to tell us fairytales, Kenny did not do it for the well of the group but he mostly did it to take revenge from Larry for the argument of Duck's bitten issue. He always wanted to get rid of Lilly-Larry coalition, as he is desperately desiring of that leader role of the group (which I don't know why and with which faculty?), he got the chance and used it precisely.

Really? Rudeness? So it's rude to stay alive?
And what goodbye? She couldn't let him go and he could've came back at anytime, it was hard thing but he believed it needed to be done for their own survival, I think that quote suits that situation. He could've came back as a cannibalistic dead guy, yeah, then I doubt thought of "Take your time to say goodbye while it would be rude to save ourselves" was going to stick even though she didn't want to say goodbye anyway.

And fairytale? You would know all about that. As I said, Larry did try to kill his son by wanting to throw him out, what father would forgive that? You think he did that just to be leader? I don't think he had any interest, Lilly was a terrible leader, he saw that. Two things that might've been in his head, Revenge & survival, also Larry did try to kill Lee, don't forget that.

5)
Well, I prefer a confused Lilly than a shifty Kenny with me as a companion. Or I prefer her to a "good girl" Carley who never assumed responsibility when though decisions are being made. I loved her too, and I'm not saying she deserved it. But this is WD universe man, You can not just push someone's -with a gun- buttons (hence if she is half mentally ill because of her father's death) freely by yelling at her with insults. I'm trying to keep my sympathies on Lilly, cause she did nothing unstable or bad before her unfortunate lost.

So you prefer a crazy, lazy, unreasonable, murderous she-devil that would make you do all the work while she does nothing and will kill you if you disagree with her as your companion over a tough guy A-hole that can be reasonable or a cute tough girl that likes you and will definitely have your back? You're asking for a death wish if you want that, remember, one character will have your back to keep you alive, you think Lilly will have your back to keep you alive? No as she shown in the game, Carley would keep you alive, Lilly will ditch you when she gets a chance.

And when did Carley never assume responsibility when the tough decision is made? Was there even any group discussions, the only one I remember is when you refuse to go to the farm, she participated in that.

Can you blame her for sticking up for herself, if a crazy bitch was pointing and accusing me of something I never did and had no reason to do so while she was pressuring a weak teen to falsely accept her lie of me being a traitor then yeah, I would be mad too, call her all sorts of names, heck I would slap her because remember, Carley never did anything to her before all that. Carley was even worried about her.
And you think Lilly did nothing bad before her loss? She would let people die, be a bitch to you, force you to things you decline to do, need I say more.

6)
Who says that there was a need for "a leader" when Lee was there?
He is doing AALLL the stuff and I me myself have no intensions for seeking another leader. Who gave Kenny that title? What did he do to earn it? During the whole game, driving that RV I guess.

Ummmmm Lilly did. She sure acted like they needed a leader. No one gave Kenny that title because he didn't take it anyway and had no interest, all he cared about was survival of the group. The RV, him searching for food with Lee, not trusting the St John farmers were sure a lot more deserving of a leadership position than Lilly ever did.

7)
When it comes decision time;
Lilly was always waiting for the first words from Lee and she looked into Lee's eyes before she opened her mouth to talk.
Cause she had much respect to Lee's ideas.
But Kenny,
His first reactions was always so loud. He was shouting, arguing etc... etc...

Where did this even come from? I don't recall her glazing into his eyes romance style and taking an interest. She's only reasonable if you kiss her ass and agree with everything she says, when he says something that disagrees with her motive, she screams and becomes a bitch about it and you try to pass that trait off to Kenny, not saying he's reasonable but he never shouts at you, only once I remenber him shouting at you that's when he's beating you up, Lilly's no different from him but at least Ken is reasonable while Lilly is not. The only ideas she respected was her own, she expected others to respect it, those that disagree, she'll act like a cunt but Kenny wouldn’t bow down to her tyranny which is why they fight so much.

8)
In spite of I were there for him for nearly all occasions, he was still acting like a loser just because I didn't smash Larry's head, didn't steal from a lone car, didn't leave the lone girl to suffer and didn't drop an innocent young man but other than these I was always there with ALL MY SUPPORT to see him satisfied?
Kenny can call someone "friend" if they helped him to bust some guy's face.
Kenny can call someone "friend" if they helped him to steal from a lone car.
Kenny can call someone "friend" if they let an innocent young boy to fall down from the belltower.
Kenny's reservations for becoming friends are terrific.

How much was enough to see him acting like a real man? What did I do wrong to not receive at least such a little satisfaction? I was not expecting anything for Lee, if he could act rightfully in general, he would be ok for me like Larry.

But he chose to push me into hard situations.
Do you really think that any of my "failures" above is fail of "ethics" ?

Well my dear fellow, what type of a guy is that Kenny guy ? ? ?

Kenny only acts like a loser towards you if you don't help him kill the guy who tried to kill you. The others, his reactions are normal and that's it, he doesn't hold a grudge against you for not taking the food or saving Ben, he'll still call you a friend and even if he does act like a loser towards you for not siding with him against Larry, he'll apologise to you later on. He's only mad because you didn't help him take out a guy that was a danger to you and him and even before his heart attack, tried to kill you and his son and possibly be a danger to others which is a reasonable reaction. Lilly acts like a loser when you don't agree with her, at least Kenny's reason is down to survival, Lilly's reason is selfishness. At least Kenny would call you a friend, would Lilly? Answer to that is NO! At least I'm not trying to paint Kenny as a Saint as you and others have been doing with Lilly.

9)
There is something in the world entitle : Respect. Respect to other people's feelings&sufferings.Kenny made a breaking point. And contrary to Lilly, he made this kind of things severely!

Did Lilly respect anybody's feelings and the sufferings she endured on them?
She put people in difficult situations, yeah, I don't think she gave a damn about other people let alone their feelings.

10)
I strongly recommend you to watch TV series - if you haven't seen them yet, so you can see how people (especially the group leaders) react to those who are about to lose their family members.

Yes, this is a Zombie Apocalypse which means that it is for everyone, every single person is experiencing the same nightmare and NO ONE is different than the other when you check hard situations, griefs, family issues, etc...

For further information, please watch Andrea&Amy scene and look for Rick's reaction.
For more further information, please watch Tyreese&Ben's mother scene- look for Carl's reaction.
A true leader respects people's feelings.
Different from these examples, in the game our group was trapped in that meat locker I know, but I think even if a little boy like Carl could treat reasonable with family issues, a man with a family should have known better.
If it WAS the purpose- blocking Larry from harming anyone in that meat locker- I'd put some salt licks on Larry's different body parts to limit his possible zombie movements than instantly busting Larry's head.

Because I HAVE A BRAIN which I can use whenever I need.

But if it was the purpose to kill him, well it depends...

On the other hand LEEME was there and I really pissed of when Kenny involved the situation which I was already taking care of.

Now you'll SURELY continue to defend a man(by saying he did everything for his family) who were DOING NOTHING to search for an escape while LEEYOU were looking for an exit from that meat locker.
Pretty please try to remember his words while you were trying to examine the air went and please remember his answer when you asked him if he had any tools on himself suitable to use on those screws.
Last time I checked he was not looking like a mainstay of a family who was dying by scratching the walls to save his family.

God forgive Kenny. I hope he has died in that alley (or in dark room) for the well of the universe.

Yes I watch the series. This is the Zombie Apocalypse which means you're on your own, that means no doctors will help heal you if you fall sick/get injured, no police or fire-fighters will come to your rescue, basically, everything that protected or kept society in check like law & order is gone, in this world, people are showing their true colours like the Governor, cops are going crazy, evil people are showing their faces like Negan because they can't be touched because there are no rules. That is the world they are living in now, the first instinct was survival so I don't think anyone will have time to mourn when danger will soon come upon them.

And the scenes you listed are a lot different then Larry's death. Andrea knew Amy was dead, Rick Grimes & co were eager to take her out before she turned, Tyreese and his group knew Donna was dead and that's why they wanted to act fast when they were in a safe place. Notice the surroundings? They were out in the open and had their weapons so it was easy to take their time, Lee's group was stuck in a small meat locker with no where to run, their weapons were gone and the only thing they can use were salt licks, to top it all off, Lilly couldn't accept her dad was dead or was impossible to save, what was he supposed to do, wait until he came back and be impossible to kill, in that time and situation, you would be spending less time thinking about being rude and more time trying to act out ways to protect yourself and others, do you really think Rick Grimes would not have the done the same thing if Carl was in the room with him?

I'm not defending Kenny, even I think he was too rash but since the guy he killed was a loose canon, it's easy to forgive. You on the other hand, continue to defend a crazy, reckless woman that took the life of an innocent person with no hesitation, no remorse then leaves people for dead including that of a little girl.

You don't think he looked for a way out? He obviously was, he even said that they need to find another way out when Lee opened his eyes, what was Larry doing, banging the door away when he knew he had a heart problem, what was Lilly the so called true leader doing, throwing up. And all he said was he had no tools, so him having nothing makes him a bad man?

Again, you condemn Kenny for not using his brain but what about Lilly who never stopped to think and use her head. You always seem to forget her, but since she's your favourite character, you make your arguments one sided.

I hope she comes across the Saviours or Marauders or the Hunters and is tortured to a painful death. Be doing the world a favour. A monster getting screwed by other monster would be priceless.

11)
For me, there is only ONE explanation to the situation above all other excuses:

Kenny doesn't care others' lives and feelings + Kenny panicked + Kenny doesn't have the balls + Kenny looked for a revenge + Kenny wanted to hold all strings in his hands + Kenny was trembling with the idea of a painful death

=

Kenny murdered Larry with no hesitation. Dastardly.

He could wait a little until Lilly saw the situation is ending no good and until she accepts her father's fate. He'd tell her to go to a corner and cover her ears before making any attempt, though.

Kenny never cares about anyone huh?
Who went back to save Lee after your so called heroes father left him for dead? Kenny
Who sacrificed themselves to save Christa? Kenny
Who sacrificed themselves just so a scared teenage boy doesn't have to feel the pain of being eaten alive? Kenny

Now I'll do my own math with Lilly

Is full of herself + never cared about anyone’s feelings but her dads + reckless + unreasonable + selfish + lazy + crazy + paranoid + puts others in dangers

=

Lilly murdered an innocent person who never did a damn thing to her & left Six people for dead. Now that is what you call dastardly, cowardly shoots someone behind their back and cowardly abandons a group for dead.

She was never going to accept that her father was dead, what could Kenny have done, wait until the situation becomes more difficult.

12)
The thing I want you to focus most is:

I'm NOT arguing killing Larry. The thing here is: KILLING HIM BEFORE UNDERSTANDING HIS CONDITION, SO FAST, SO CRUEL, AND SO UNRESPECTFULLY.
Yes, no matter what may be the results, again, there is no right of him doing it. Who is Kenny? Executioner? Who said he could decide who will live, or who will die?
NO one but NO ONE has the right to act like an executioner when it comes to family issues. Kenny shouldn't KILL Larry, because simply he has NO right to do it. Simple. No .ucking right on someone else's life.
No matter what it was not, never, ever, no way, hell no- his duty.

Kenny broke the first and the most important rule (and on my angle he caused a chain reaction on others- like Lilly killing Carley etc.)

He can say " I did it for my family, and for my own life... My life was at stake, too", again this is ok for me too. But after he committed suicide and after he remained alive, he'd pay for what he did. If he only had the balls...
The thing I'm trying to say is here, HE MAY ACT AS HE WANTS OR AS HE FINDS NECESSARY (in spite of he has no right to do so) , BUT AFTER DOING THE DIRTY WORK HE MUST FACE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES. HE MIGHT HAVE TAKEN THE RESPONSIBILITY OF HIS ACTIONS. But he didn't.

If this is not enough, he dared to come with an argument with Lilly, about leaving or not leaving the motel. If I were him, I could never look into her eyes because of blaming myself. And mostly because of this, LeeMe didn't think busting Larry's head even just for only one second. I knew I will never explain Lilly how I could act that selfish and that cowardy.
Kenny couldn't load his sins, but Lilly did. She left the group just after she murdered Carley. I agree she crossed the line but she took responsibility of her actions(yes with stealing their only vehicle).

So he can't act like a so called Executioner when his life and his friends lives were on the line?
A 6"4 dead guy would come back to life as a mindless, cannibalistic corpse of a killing machine with no emotions, no pain and would eat you alive and he had no where else to go. You accept that he did it to save himself but since Larry was a family member, you deem it "Rude"?

And rules? What rules, there are no rules anymore. And your seriously blaming him for unleashing a psychotic disturbed woman to kill an innocent person. And "Payed"? What price did he pay, at least when he paid that so called Price, he did it on his own terms, at least he redeemed himself, I can't say the same for Lilly and you say he needed to face the consequences, again, what about Lilly, don't you think she needs to face the consequences of what she has done and she sure as heck didn't take any responsibility for it.

And you judge him for bringing up the issue with the group about leaving. Food was running out of the city, bandits are in the area and could attack any moment, it's not like they were living on a farm, what did you expect him to do, nothing while his family and friends are exposed to the risk of an attack and spending the rest of their time and energy in a ruined town full of the dead with no supplies left?

Lilly never took responsibility for her actions, after murdering Carley, she still tried to justify her actions and took advantage of a group, knowing they could've left her ass after what she did, by taking their vehicle and leaving them for dead. You can say that Kenny killing Larry was selfish & cowardly but Lilly killing Carley was much worse and it was Evil & Vile. There is a huge difference between the two, Kenny had a reason for what he did, Lilly had "NO" reason to do what she did.

You can forgive Lilly for murdering an innocent person without reason but you can't forgive Kenny for killing a Douche bag with reason?

13)
Kenny suddenly came into Lilly's group and started giving orders, making decisions, busting heads etc... So ridiculous.

Tell me what the current leader was doing? Nothing. She didn't know what she was doing, she was clueless and when that moron of a father had a heart attack, she ran to Lee & Kenny and begged them to help her. Again, what was he supposed to do, nothing? He was kind enough to give her the leader position back after that.

14)
And I'm trying to be reasonable with someone who makes instant deadly mistakes like Lilly. Her reacton was so humanistic to me- it was so primitive, it was so weak which makes all of us "human".
But I can't support someone whose actions are slippery, cowardy and treachery. And I can't call him a friend in long term. I don't know if I could express myself; I love Lilly because her mistake was about her bad instincts, and I don't love Kenny because his (ton of) mistakeS were all about his personality.

You are completely free to love Kenny who always pushes you around, forcing you into hard situations, yelling at you, complaining you etc, and I can love an unfortunate murderer. I'm not even talking about claiming the leader role while Kenny has NO way anything about it. He was always all irritating with his words, with his ideas, and with his actions and I'm really speechless how can people call him "friend" after he pushes Lee away when Lee tried to talk to him on that train.

OK, this makes no sense whatsoever and your reasoning’s on why you love her so much make no sense either. So you adore her because she has bad instincts that put others in danger but you hate Kenny because you don't like his decisions that proved to be not so bad? And humanistic, so you're saying that humans kill the innocent and abandon the weak, I know some do but you're making it out like we all do.

You claim Kenny's actions are slippery, cowardly and treachery and that he always pushes you around, forcing you into hard situations, yelling at you, complaining to you and you can't support anyone like that but have you not noticed, you have been supporting someone like that, Lilly has done these things. You even admit to her being murderer but all this time, you have been condemning Kenny as a murderer. How can anyone claim to like a character but hate another for the decisions they made when the character they like made similar or worst decisions.

Lilly has always been irritating upon meeting her, she's been selfish, didn't give a damn about other peoples opinions, always unreasonable, her decisions and idea puts you in a difficult spot, expects people to suck up to her rules.

And the train thing, yeah he pushed you away regarding his son because he's beating himself up over Duck & Shawn Green and blames himself, he was in denial but don’t tell me Lilly has never been in denial?, Kenny eventually comes to his senses afterwards, and don't forget, Batshit Lilly also pushes you away when you tried talking to her so why does she get ignored.

15)
I am sorry for you Kennylovers, but not Lilly, not Larry, not Ben, and even not radioman was the reason they are all dead and everything messed up. But with not giving respect to any others' feelings, Kenny did start everything.

And I'll declare again that I'm not Kenny lover but I feel sorry for you Lilly lovers, you make her out to be what you want her to be, not what she is. And your arguments are one sided in terms of judging Kenny but overlook at what Lilly did and how she was doing it.

You say Kenny caused the deaths of everyone, lets look back at who caused who’s death and see if Kenny is to blame for their demise.

Lilly killed Carley and caused Duck to get bitten by stubbornly staying at the motel which lead to Katjaa's suicide.
Ben being dumb, led to Duck & Katjaa's demise(bandit dealings) and Brie's death(removing the axe).
Radioman caused Lee, Kenny & Ben's death but if you want to go further back, Clementine for talking with him in the first place but since she didn't know, I can't fault her that the radio guy was insane.

So, how did Kenny get everyone killed?

And I'll ask again, did Lilly respect other peoples feeling, did she listen to other peoples opinions, did she respect Lee's feelings when she ratted him out to be a killer, stabbing him in the back, did she respect Lee’s feeling when she volunteered him to do things he never asked, did she care about anybody else? No.

So,

I prefer a "murderer" with a good attitude than a presuming traitor if I have to call someone "friend".

So you don't think Lilly killing a good person when their back was turned and leaving good people for dead is treacherous?
You can call Kenny a traitor but he stuck with you till the end, where was Lilly? Cruising in the RV
And what good attitude? She was hypocritical, judgemental, lazy, expects you to roll over for her, was unreasonable the moment you meet her, where's the good attitude in that? When you meet Kenny, he's kind towards you and offers you a ride, Lilly is aggressive when you meet her, yeah she has a good attitude alright. Careful, that murderer with a horrendous attitude will shoot you in the back.

I'm really sorry if I bored you all, with this long post. But, I think this is good for me to get my words together if I ever want to point my opinion on Lilly&Kenny again.

I don't mind with the long post. But I still question why people like Lilly so much? I'm sorry man but yours didn't do it for me.

[YamiRaziel]

I see my name mentioned quite often in your posts. I started reading but then I realized how you clearly have no idea how to argument yourself so I quit.
I'm sorry but I definitely do not have time for lines like "After meeting her, it's clear she was a Terrible Leader. "

I don't see why she's a terrible leader, nor why it is clear.
Your posts are full of things you believe we should all finally understand but to tell you the truth, all you say has been discussed for so long that nobody is gonna take you seriously.
Calling me or anybody else fanatic doesn't help either. It only shows how rude and narrow-minded you are.

There are a lot of people in this forum who do not share my appreciation for Lilly and whom I respect. You are not one of them.

[dukeleto]

Hello Icerider-

Ok it's clear for me now- why you support Kenny this much.
Let me explain.

You support him because he fits MUCH to your playthrouh and to your decisions.

The thing here is, there are not only one Lilly or not only one Kenny in this game.
The Kenny I met,
is way tooooooo different than your Kenny (according to your choices)

And the Lilly I met,
is way tooooooo different than your Lilly. (according to your choices,again)

I'm saying this, because you asked me where did I saw that "caring" Lilly.
I strongly suggest you to go back and try to side with her while rationing, staying at the motel, and giving a bar of chocolate kinda things... Then maybe you can see another Lilly.

The thing I'm trying to say here is, your arguments are based on DEPENDEBLE facts( according to playthroughs), while mine were not based on people's choices.
Because I'm not talking about Kenny whose actions are changeable according to player's choices. The examples I gave were for everyone who played this game.

For example you mentioned about Christa. Who saved her? I didn't see Kenny were doing it since I didn't drop Ben on that belltower. ( But even if I saw him doing that, I was still like F*** you Kenny, because it was already his fault that Christa fell down. )

And about Ben, Kenny didn't sacrifice nothing; he only realised that he never treated reasonable to that teenager, and after his family is all gone, he realised he will not handle the idea of a painful death of this young man. Nothing more.

I see my explanations are still not enough for you.

Then I must repeat:
-NO one but NO ONE has the right to act like an executioner when it comes to family issues. Kenny shouldn't KILL Larry, because simply he has NO right to do it. Simple. No .ucking right on someone else's life. -

Of course, he can still act like an executioner to save his own life (or for his family), but as I said after doing it he must have taken the responsibility and he must have left. As Lilly did.

You said "And rules? What rules, there are no rules anymore. "
Ok then, it is not a problem that Lilly killed Carley. No rules, no respect. Nothing.

Think about again, who is only one sided?

I still insist, everything started by Kenny's arrogance with that salt lick. They were all doing well one way or another. But Kenny screwed at the first most deadly situation the group ever faced.

Please try to discuss some manners by non-dependable arguments. As I carefully choose the examples which are not changeable for others' playthroughs. If you continue, I'm sorry I'll think that yours doesn't do it for me, too.

And lastly;
YES, the drinking issue is the most important thing to me. And disappearances of Clem on both situations looked a bit different to me.
Because last time I checked, on Lee's situation LEEME was sleeping.

All the Best and Merry Christmas