Meat locker: What if....

[Rommel49]

Originally Posted by Wynne

This.

Also, in a ZA, if someone tried to KILL me after I SAVED THEIR LIFE, I'm pretty sure I would judge them (a) insane, (b) a danger to sane people who are not psychotic. Since Larry had already gone off the deep end and was extremely hot-tempered and had a heart condition, the chances of him surviving... I judged them poor and there was nothing to make me pause. Instead, I thought, "this guy was a severe danger due to his irrational, paranoid protectiveness even when alive... if saved, he could still cause great harm to more people than just himself. If not saved, same deal. If I let him hurt others, it's my fault because I responded to my urge to not feel bad about killing him rather than doing what needed to be done."

I would've felt responsible if Larry had harmed anyone. It was more important to me to not doom anyone else in that room, including Lilly whom Larry loved and who seemed to be the one thing he did right in life at that time, to death via Walker bite than to save a clearly psychotic person who believed he had the right to take a stranger's life as a preventative measure.

Katjaa, on the other hand... Katjaa's younger, has no known health problems, and is far less likely to be dangerous due to her smaller size and the difference in muscle mass. Plus, it would be harder for me to do what needed to be done even if I were absolutely sure she wasn't going to live (which I wouldn't be.) I would keep that salt lick at the ready, though. Katjaa wouldn't want me to doom her husband. I would try to steel myself using that thought.

I would try to talk Kenny down from mouth-to-mouth, though. Supposedly chest compressions are the most important thing, and if she woke up a walker, she might bite his tongue clean off. Then he'd be dead, too.

From a strictly impartial standpoint, I actually couldn't really blame Larry for trying to get rid of Lee, we just tend not to see it that way because Lee's well, us. He knew Lee was a convicted murderer. Most of us would probably have issues with having a guy convicted of theft around our valuables, or a registered sex offender around kids. I can certainly see why someone wouldn't want to take any chances with a convicted murderer around their daughter.

He's certainly nowhere near as hostile towards Lee by Episode 2 (even if his tone doesn't necessarily change); hell, give him the axe and he can actually end up saving Lee's life from the pickup Walker.

That said, considering I tried to save Larry, there's no reason I wouldn't do the same for Katjaa. The only gripe I had with the Larry situation is that there wasn't any option to take sensible precautions like trying to restrain him (Lilly did have a belt, afterall). Realistically speaking, killing someone's family while they watched is pretty much the last option - if only because it seems like a good way to end up as a friendly fire casualty down the road.

[Hudomonkey]

I would have saved anyone even the Saint John's brother or the stranger

No one deserves to die

[Corcline27]

I didn't like Larry at all, but I couldn't watch Lilly desperately try to save him on her own. So I tried my best but the ZA had other plans. :/

[CarScar]

Originally Posted by Hudomonkey

I would have saved anyone even the Saint John's brother or the stranger

No one deserves to die

What about Danny? The Governor? Negan?

[Wynne]

Originally Posted by Rommel49

From a strictly impartial standpoint, I actually couldn't really blame Larry for trying to get rid of Lee, we just tend not to see it that way because Lee's well, us. He knew Lee was a convicted murderer. Most of us would probably have issues with having a guy convicted of theft around our valuables, or a registered sex offender around kids. I can certainly see why someone wouldn't want to take any chances with a convicted murderer around their daughter.

Also from a strictly impartial standpoint, I still blame Larry. I don't blame you for not blaming him, but here's why his actions are still deplorable from my perspective.

If Lee had been a convicted sex offender, then aside from and possibly even after a VERY convincing conversation about how he was simply caught urinating near a school zone at midnight where he assumed no kids would be, I would've rallied the group against him and made sure he was no longer her caregiver. That's what a sane person does. They investigate and consult and act in proportion to the circumstances. They don't quietly attempt murder without making the slightest inquiry. This because they know they are not omniscient judges and the justice system is not infallible either. Of all survivors besides Chuck later on, Larry has the most life experience, so he has had the most time to learn life is more complex than that. For all Larry knows, Lee killed the man who was screwing his wife because he thought someone had broken in and she was being raped. As Lee tells it later, it was an accident, but for me that's irrelevant to the circumstances. Working from Larry's perspective, he still had no right to do what he did, despite how scary a ZA would admittedly be with no cops around to call anymore. Of all the group, Larry is the most capable of stopping Lee if something did happen anyway, but Carley doesn't go shooting Lee out of hand despite knowing what's up.

Whatever went down, murder convictions are never black and white, and a single murder is quite different from being a serial killer--it may have been a false conviction or a frame or self-defense that just ended up looking bad... there's a reason vigilantism is frowned on. Even if you find someone standing over a body, despite how it looks, you don't know if they were the person who committed the deed or just an unfortunate witness. It could be either, and as such you don't have the right to just throw them out a window. You have a right to defend yourself if they threaten you, but not to just murder them when they're unarmed right after they've handed you your asthma inhaler out of concern for your welfare.

In the same vein, sane people don't try to kill a child for being bloodstained without wanting to even look for a bite wound. Of all the people in that room, Larry has the LEAST reason to be afraid of a tiny, frail child, being a military man with a military daughter, the two people most capable of defending themselves. If Lilly were 10, I could see it, but she is in the Air Force and in her 30s for crying out loud! Being protective is one thing--lots of people are protective without trying to kill strangers at the slightest sign of possible danger.

As for Lee being "us," well, 47% of gamers are female, up from 42% just a few years ago. I myself am white, female, and "five feet and small change", as Harry Dresden would say. I share no superficial traits with Lee, I'm not from the same place as him, I'm not in the education business, I don't have a child to protect... the list goes on. I'm probably somewhat close to his age and I like his look, voice, and personality, but that's as far as it goes. His lack of breasts and tendency to flirt with girls rule him out for standing in as a surrogate for me. I liked him, but that's not why I defend him. I defend him because even when he was in the back of a police car talking about his murder conviction and I didn't know him from Adam or Cain, my gut told me he was not a monster, whatever he might have done.

Convictions mean nothing by themselves. Ever heard of the Innocence Project? Ever seen the Shawshank Redemption? Even without those possibilities on the table, extenuating circumstances exist. Would I be wary of a convicted killer? Absolutely. Less so one that I saw caring for a little girl and protecting another small family, assuming he didn't give me any creepy vibes. I might take action of some sort. But I'd see it as both judgmental and suicidal to go around snarling at a person I (presumably sincerely) believe is a murderer, then making a half-assed attempt at killing him right in front of the girl he was caring for, showing absolutely no concern for how it would traumatize her.

"Convicted murderer" is a red flag. It demands caution, not casual and hypocritical murder.

It's not that I don't find Larry and Lilly sympathetic to a degree, but they are not what anyone could call stable people, and their actions towards Lee and Carley are simply inexcusable. I think the fact that both attempt to kill undeserving people when the pressure is on is not a coincidence at all.

It's too bad Lilly's mom died. Maybe she was the moderating influence on them both. If I were in the group of survivors, I would try to make everyone mend fences. I would try to help both become better people. But what Larry did is still as dead wrong as what his daughter does later after she cracks.

At worst, Larry is a borderline sociopath. At best, his instincts and judgments about people are the worst ever, and his morals are extremely questionable. Lee is a decent guy Larry judges psychotic enough to immediately try to kill him despite Lee saving his life and protecting a little girl and going on missions to help the group; the St. John family he judges to be wonderful angels from heaven despite the creepy vibes rolling off them in waves (yes, I felt it even before I knew they were cannibal murderers; I didn't know what I felt but I knew something was off, which I assume most people did sooner or later, if nothing else around the point where they started probing about the group's defenses and state of leadership). It's pretty hard to defend him when he trusts his own incredibly terrible judgment after having had an entire lifetime in which to view the results of his own poor decisions about other human beings, to the point where he attempts murder based on what he read in the papers.

Originally Posted by Hudomonkey

I would have saved anyone even the Saint John's brother or the stranger

No one deserves to die

That's the kind of attitude that gets people eaten. When someone is murdering human beings, and their entire philosophy revolves around thin justifications for doing so, they are going to kill more people. The St. John brothers are two of the few people in the TWD universe who pretty much have to die so that they don't keep murdering other living humans. They have developed a taste for human meat and that's not going to change. Sure, you could leave them on the farm after what they did to Mark. But then the next group of poor, unsuspecting survivors that comes along is likely as doomed as he was.

Some people are just going to keep on killing because they like it, and as soon as you've confirmed that beyond a reasonable doubt, saving them is the same as killing many more people. You may feel better--"I'm a good person because I saved someone!" but I'm pretty sure if their future victims could talk they'd have a lot of things to say about your supposed 'virtue.' Assuaging your conscience at the cost of others' lives is pretty shaky moral ground to stand on. Would you really admire someone who saved Ted Bundy's life, allowing him to rape and murder more people, above someone who said, "I'm not going to risk my life and my companions' lives by pulling him up from that cliff he's dangling off of just so that I can feel like the hero"? If you ask me, saving him seems pretty selfish besides being incredibly foolish in a world where there are no cops to call about the monstrous things he did.

[BenIsKindaCool]

Originally Posted by CarScar

.. I could never bring myself to kill Katjaa because she reminds me so much of my own mother.

That goes for me too..

[Rommel49]

Originally Posted by Wynne

Also from a strictly impartial standpoint, I still blame Larry. I don't blame you for not blaming him, but here's why his actions are still deplorable from my perspective.

If Lee had been a convicted sex offender, then aside from and possibly even after a VERY convincing conversation about how he was simply caught urinating near a school zone at midnight where he assumed no kids would be, I would've rallied the group against him and made sure he was no longer her caregiver. That's what a sane person does. They investigate and consult and act in proportion to the circumstances. They don't quietly attempt murder without making the slightest inquiry. This because they know they are not omniscient judges and the justice system is not infallible either. Of all survivors besides Chuck later on, Larry has the most life experience, so he has had the most time to learn life is more complex than that.

Except Lee never even denies his crime when questioned by people who knew what happened (hell, he can even tell Carley that he knew about the affair beforehand). That kinda rules out "he was innocent, and he was in the minority of cases where the justice system screwed up". Further, he actively conceals his connection to the family pharmacy. Add in the fact that from anybody else's point of view he's also inexplicably wandering free and not in prison shortly after a murder conviction? No part of that exactly suggests good intentions or innocence on Lee's part.

In a survival scenario, there's really not much you can do about a potential risk except to kill them unless you want to chance it biting you in the ass later. You can't exactly imprison such a person (lack of facilities and it expends meagre resources needed to survive on a nonproductive person), and even just keeping them around splits the group's focus (which can be deadly in and of itself). It also doesn't matter how big and strong somebody is if you're keeping a potential danger around, since people eventually need to you know, sleep.

Duck's a seperate issue, and while I sided with Kenny on it, Larry's concern was understandable (hell, on my first run it looked like Duck might've been bit to me). The fact that Duck picked that moment to be quiet and not say anything for himself didn't help. Seconds and minutes can count in life or death situations. Being ex-military isn't as big a boon as you'd think either (even excluding for the moment that Lilly was Chair Force), we're primarily trained to fight with weapons and Carley had the only one among the group... and none of it matters if they get bit.

As for Lee being "us," well, 47% of gamers are female, up from 42% just a few years ago. I myself am white, female, and "five feet and small change", as Harry Dresden would say. I share no superficial traits with Lee, I'm not from the same place as him, I'm not in the education business, I don't have a child to protect... the list goes on. I'm probably somewhat close to his age and I like his look, voice, and personality, but that's as far as it goes.

I meant we see the narrative through his eyes, his choices are our choices, etc. by definition, it biases the player towards his point-of-view. I didn't believe that was a difficult concept to grasp or one which would actually require explanation.

[BenIsKindaCool]

I would save Katjaa..Now,no offense Larry's fans but Fuck him..Lee almost got killed in ep 1 because of this asshole and I hated Lilly and Larry from the begining.What goes around comes back around.Now this is my opinion,so don't start..

[double_u]

Great post Wynne.

[Mornai]

Well, theoretically you could go about the apocalypse without killing anyone. Just use the walkers as your weapon. The situation in the St. Johns farm can be defused without killing the St. Johns by your hand, while still removing them as a threat.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by Rock114

A big reason I helped Kenny originally was because of Larry's massive size and strength. If it had been anyone else, I may have tried to save them. Katjaa isn't nearly as strong as Larry, so I would have been willing to take the risk. I would have told Lilly to stand by with the salt-lick though.

This.

[Wynne]

Originally Posted by double_u

Great post Wynne.

Many thanks.

Originally Posted by Rommel49

Except Lee never even denies his crime when questioned by people who knew what happened (hell, he can even tell Carley that he knew about the affair beforehand). That kinda rules out "he was innocent, and he was in the minority of cases where the justice system screwed up".

Irrelevant because we're talking about Larry, and Larry doesn't know that. Same with everything else you mentioned. Seems you're the one looking through Lee's eyes, seeing through the lens of what he knows rather than thinking about what Larry would know. Ironic, that. Have you ever heard of projection?

Originally Posted by Rommel49

I meant we see the narrative through his eyes, his choices are our choices, etc. by definition, it biases the player towards his point-of-view.

Except I'm aware of that bias and discarded it before offering my opinion. You're also aware of that bias, but you're overcompensating for it. Me, I deliberately looked through Larry's eyes to try to understand the character, and I didn't like what I saw at all. That's why I wrote what I wrote.

There is always a better way to deal with an unknown or suspicious character than "sneak around behind the group's back and murder a person I haven't even bothered to talk to who saved my life and protected a little girl, just because I heard they like totally killed some dude who for all I know was the biggest bastard ever."

I'm a pragmatic person who's very aware of the moral gray areas in life. If it's clear a person is a danger to the group due to current instability rather than a person who made a single huge mistake in the heat of the moment, I'm all for taking action--and by action, I don't mean "quiet murder based on my personal judgment which is about as poor as it gets." But when our backs are to the wall, an efficient killer between us and the walkers? Great! Every walker that dies is one more that can't kill me or my family, and if the murderer dies fighting them, if I'd killed him already it might've been me dying like that.

Larry's instincts are terrible, yet he trusts them. He is a judgmental hypocrite whose response to knowing that someone committed a murder is to murder that person in front of the child he was protecting, not long after demanding the death of another child before bothering to confirm he was bitten.

Larry treats his own assumptions as absolute truth and likes to kill first, ask questions later. I'm not sure how you can defend someone like that.

Originally Posted by Rommel49

Duck's a seperate issue, and while I sided with Kenny on it, Larry's concern was understandable (hell, on my first run it looked like Duck might've been bit to me). The fact that Duck picked that moment to be quiet and not say anything for himself didn't help. Seconds and minutes can count in life or death situations. Being ex-military isn't as big a boon as you'd think either (even excluding for the moment that Lilly was Chair Force), we're primarily trained to fight with weapons and Carley had the only one among the group... and none of it matters if they get bit.

So what you're saying is that you'd scream savagely for the death of a tiny, traumatized child who was covered in blood but not snarling and not looking dead at all just because he MIGHT have been bitten, rather than watching him carefully or demanding a careful examination to confirm he was okay?

...I don't think even you truly believe you'd be that inhuman. Only a nutcase would, even in extreme circumstances, and while I very much disagree with you about Larry, you're not giving me psychopath vibes at all. Now I have to wonder if you're just arguing for the sake of argument. Which is fun sometimes, but come on. Nothing you've said so far makes Larry's actions even slightly sympathetic.

I think if you look deep down, you'll realize you're a different kind of military man than Larry. Likely a much more human one, more like my father and grandfather. People who don't jump to murder as the first solution to dealing with people they don't trust.

[Viner16]

I already tried to save Larry before (One look at my profile and stuff will tell you that )

And of course I'd tried to save Katjaa. Just have the Salt Lick prepared, no need to randomly smash people's face in.

[Psyconix]

I actually did help Kenny kill Larry. If it was Katjaa who passed out and might be dying in the meat locker, I would help Kenny to get her back alive. But if she wouldn't make it, I would probably do the same thing to protect the rest of the group.