So who felt sorry for Ben?

[Ygdrasel]

Originally Posted by CarScar

Ben caused the death of all those people, killed is a much broader term then murder. Would it really even matter if I said "indirectly caused the death" instead of "killed."

Katjaa killed herself because she succumb to the pain of losing a child. A pain no parent should ever have to go through. Ben is the reason why Duck was bitten, the reason she felt that pain and killed herself.

"... I love our son more than life itself..."

Oh, so it's cause and effect then? So where is the causality?

The cause of Duck's death was a walker bite. Ben is not the reason for that bite any more than Clementine was the reason for Lee's. Shit happens. How, exactly, did Ben's actions make that walker bite Duck? They didn't. Walkers bite people. No causality there.

The cause of Kat's death was a bullet flying into her brain. That was her choice and had nothing to do with Ben. Kenny lost a child too. He survived. Why? He chose to. Kat's death was the result of her own choice and action. No causality there either.

[Kaserkin]

Originally Posted by CarScar

Ben caused the death of all those people, killed is a much broader term then murder. Would it really even matter if I said "indirectly caused the death" instead of "killed."

Katjaa killed herself because she succumb to the pain of losing a child. A pain no parent should ever have to go through. Ben is the reason why Duck was bitten, the reason she felt that pain and killed herself.

"... I love our son more than life itself..."

Read my post above. Ben has no responsability over those death, except maybe for Brie.

@Ygdrasel: It wasn't the right moment. Patience is the key in everything. One day Kenny would have been ready for it, and Ben could choose better words than "it's all my fault".

[CarScar]

Originally Posted by Ygdrasel

Oh, so it's cause and effect then? So where is the causality?

The cause of Duck's death was a walker bite. Ben is not the reason for that bite any more than Clementine was the reason for Lee's. Shit happens. How, exactly, did Ben's actions make that walker bite Duck? They didn't. Walkers bite people. No causality there.

The cause of Kat's death was a bullet flying into her brain. That was her choice and had nothing to do with Ben. Kenny lost a child too. He survived. Why? He chose to. Kat's death was the result of her own choice and action. No causality there either.

A. Ben makes deals, doesn't tell anyone.
B. Lee finds the supplies, bandits don't get it.
C. Bandits attack.
D. Gunfire attracts the walkers.
E. Walker bites Duck.
F. Katjaa was left in a state of depression due to the bite.
G. Katjaa kills herself due to her depressed state.

You're just being nitpicky, I could just as easily say "Ben indirectly caused the death of ____." Does it really even matter.

[Phil_TWD]

I had the chance to kill Ben on Episode 4 by leaving him fall, but decided to help him out, I just couldn't do it. Although, if it were during the time he indirectly murdered Duck/Katjaa/Carley I would've for sure.

Oh well, on the next episode he died, so just one more day before his life was over.

[Ygdrasel]

Originally Posted by CarScar

A. Ben makes deals, doesn't tell anyone.
B. Lee finds the supplies, bandits don't get it.
C. Bandits attack.
D. Gunfire attracts the walkers.
E. Walker bites Duck.
F. Katjaa was left in a state of depression due to the bite.
G. Katjaa kills herself due to her depressed state.

You're just being nitpicky, I could just as easily say "Ben indirectly caused the death of ____." Does it really even matter.

Kat died because she was selfish and weak. Period.




Analogy Time!

Let's say a friend and I are on an island and out of food. I send him to find some fruit or something and along the way, he's bitten by some animal. The bite gets infected and he dies. What caused his death?

Me? I just sent him on a food run. I can't read the future.

The animal? Indirectly. It paved the way for the culprit.

Germs. Germs entered the wound and began the infection. That is the cause. And let's say his wife kills herself after hearing the news?

In that scenario, I made a choice that I thought beneficial. It ended badly but I'm not responsible for that end. It was out of my hands. But by your logic, I've just killed a guy and his wife, caused their deaths, am personally responsible for the end of their existence. You really can't see the flaw in that thinking?



The virus (what kills and reanimates them) is the direct cause of Duck's death. Walkers were the indirect cause for delivering the virus. Ben is just a guy who made a choice that ended badly. He thought his choice was for the best. He was wrong. It happens. In fact, it happens a ton to Lee himself throughout the game.

[RobtMyers]

Originally Posted by Ygdrasel

Oh, so it's cause and effect then? So where is the causality?

I'm with you. When judging a person's worthiness — which is what we're really talking about here — intent is the key issue.

So Ben is shitty around walkers. Duh. But who's decision was it to bring him to Crawford? The adults.

Lee knew Ben was no good under pressure and freezes in the clutch. Hell, Ben was less suited for their mission to Crawford than Clem. But the game forces you to take him. I'm not complaining to TTG about that, that's what the point of the whole subplot was and the theme of the episode: Are you like the folks from Crawford or not?

But if you had infinite freedom in the game I'd have said the characters should have left him behind to mind Omid and Clem (I left her at the mansion in my playthrough). Then it would have been her and him against that walker. And yes, I imagine Clem would have had to save him, but at least he wouldn't have opened the gates for the horde.

[Kaserkin]

Originally Posted by RobtMyers

I'm with you. When judging a person's worthiness — which is what we're really talking about here — intent is the key issue.

So Ben is shitty around walkers. Duh. But who's decision was it to bring him to Crawford? The adults.

Lee knew Ben was no good under pressure and freezes in the clutch. Hell, Ben was less suited for their mission to Crawford than Clem. But the game forces you to take him. I'm not complaining to TTG about that, that's what the point of the whole subplot was and the theme of the episode: Are you like the folks from Crawford or not?

But if you had infinite freedom in the game I'd have said the characters should have left him behind to mind Omid and Clem (I left her at the mansion in my playthrough). Then it would have been her and him against that walker. And yes, I imagine Clem would have had to save him, but at least he wouldn't have opened the gates for the horde.

Well in ep 5 he kills a few walkers when they make a stand. But I guess that was because he had no other choice than to fight.

[double_u]

Ygdrasel, I see where you are coming from and, from a position of a "distanced observer," I am inclined to agree with you on some points. If we use legal terms, Ben didn't possess mens rea--intent to actually harm others. It doesn't mean he's off the hook necessarily, but it would be unfair to think Ben is an evil, malicious person rather than a walking f up.

However, from the perspective of someone "immersed" in Lee's character, I hated Ben. His stupidity caused a chain of events that resulted in the deaths of many good people. So from an emotional perspective, I find it hard to forgive him even though, objectively, I hear ya. But then again, it's tough for people to be objective.

I've only saved Ben in episode 5 for two reasons. First Clem and Carley, the two characters I felt most connected to, would have wanted me too. Second, I was hoping to see a big heroic moment of redemption. Sadly, Kenny died instead with Ben.

[Ygdrasel]

Originally Posted by double_u

Ygdrasel, I see where you are coming from and, from a position of a "distanced observer," I am inclined to agree with you on some points. If we use legal terms, Ben didn't possess mens rea--intent to actually harm others. It doesn't mean he's off the hook necessarily, but it would be unfair to think Ben is an evil, malicious person rather than a walking f up.

However, from the perspective of someone "immersed" in Lee's character, I hated Ben. His stupidity caused a chain of events that resulted in the deaths of many good people. So from an emotional perspective, I find it hard to forgive him even though, objectively, I hear ya. But then again, it's tough for people to be objective.

I've only saved Ben in episode 5 for two reasons. First Clem and Carley, the two characters I felt most connected to, would have wanted me too. Second, I was hoping to see a big heroic moment of redemption. Sadly, Kenny died instead with Ben.

He redeemed himself to me when he was the only one who came with me to find Clementine. I saved him for the sake of the group. We didn't have many left.

[Wynne]

Originally Posted by double_u

However, from the perspective of someone "immersed" in Lee's character, I hated Ben. His stupidity caused a chain of events that resulted in the deaths of many good people. So from an emotional perspective, I find it hard to forgive him even though, objectively, I hear ya. But then again, it's tough for people to be objective.

Hey, don't blame Ben for the existence of the Idiot Ball in storytelling. As flawed a character as Ben was, he's always been about survival, so to me that seemed out of character for him.

Something always has to go wrong in a horror movie, or a horror game, in order for there to be tension and drama. That's not Ben's fault.

[CarScar]

Originally Posted by Ygdrasel

Kat died because she was selfish and weak. Period.

It's a shame. She always seemed like the stronger person in the relationship. She was so kind, caring. I really enjoyed her company. I can understand what she did though, she was losing everything. She started to realize Kenny wasn't the same man she married, the world around her went to hell, and her only son died. Losing a kid is extremely painful for a parent, especially for a mom. You brought the kid into this world, nurtured him, brought him up... Having to lose him must have been extremely hard for her.

"Everything is changing..."
"... I love our son more than life itself..."
"Do you know how many nights Katjaa would spend pleading for me to be nicer to the group... every night."

Regardless I never thought she'd take her life. She seemed stronger than that and I actually somewhat believe it was OOC of her.

In that scenario, I made a choice that I thought beneficial. It ended badly but I'm not responsible for that end. It was out of my hands. But by your logic, I've just killed a guy and his wife, caused their deaths, am personally responsible for the end of their existence. You really can't see the flaw in that thinking?


The virus (what kills and reanimates them) is the direct cause of Duck's death. Walkers were the indirect cause for delivering the virus. Ben is just a guy who made a choice that ended badly. He thought his choice was for the best. He was wrong. It happens. In fact, it happens a ton to Lee himself throughout the game.

This isn't going anywhere. I honestly give Ben partial blame for their deaths, the other blame rests with Lilly due to her inability to leave the motel and her "scary" outlook (which is likely responsible for Ben being unable to tell the group). The difference between the two scenarios is that what Ben did was traitorous and consequences were bound to happen sooner or later.

God knows the characters in the game agree with me, and that's good enough for me because it shows Telltale wanted to put blame on Ben:

"Ben think about it. Without you the bandits would not have attacked, Duck would never have been bitten."
"It's all my fault, all my fault."
"YOU GOT MY WIFE AND SON KILLED!"

Originally Posted by double_u

Ygdrasel, I see where you are coming from and, from a position of a "distanced observer," I am inclined to agree with you on some points. If we use legal terms, Ben didn't possess mens rea--intent to actually harm others. It doesn't mean he's off the hook necessarily, but it would be unfair to think Ben is an evil, malicious person rather than a walking f up.

He didn't really put up much of a due diligence either. I don't think he's evil, he's well-intentioned... he's just an idiot.

[double_u]

Originally Posted by CarScar

It's a shame. She always seemed like the stronger person in the relationship. She was so kind, caring. I really enjoyed her company. I can understand what she did though, she was losing everything. She started to realize Kenny wasn't the same man she married, the world around her went to hell, and her only son died. Losing a kid is extremely painful for a parent, especially for a mom. You brought the kid into this world, nurtured him, brought him up... Having to lose him must have been extremely hard for her.

"Everything is changing..."
"... I love our son more than life itself..."
"Do you know how many nights Katjaa would spend pleading for me to be nicer to the group... every night."

Regardless I never thought she'd take her life. She seemed stronger than that and I actually somewhat believe it was OOC of her.

I was surprised too that she took her own life though I understand why she would do so. I like Katjaa's character even though her dialogue/screen time was limited compared to others. She was a kind person. I sometimes wonder how Lilly's kangaroo court would have turned out if Katjaa was there to perhaps lessen the tension.

Originally Posted by CarScar

This isn't going anywhere. I honestly give Ben partial blame for their deaths, the other blame rests with Lilly due to her inability to leave the motel and her "scary" outlook (which is likely responsible for Ben being unable to tell the group). The difference between the two scenarios is that what Ben did was traitorous and consequences were bound to happen sooner or later.

God knows the characters in the game agree with me, and that's good enough for me because it shows Telltale wanted to put blame on Ben:

"Ben think about it. Without you the bandits would not have attacked, Duck would never have been bitten."
"It's all my fault, all my fault."
"YOU GOT MY WIFE AND SON KILLED!"

He didn't really put up much of a due diligence either. I don't think he's evil, he's well-intentioned... he's just an idiot.

No disagreement here whatsoever. I definitely place some blame on Ben.

[Scaeva]

Ben most certainly is responsible for the deaths of Katjaa and Duck.

Lets say a man goes to a bar, gets drunk, and decides to drive on home. On the way home he is so inebriated that he accidentally drives in the wrong lane. An oncoming car sees him approaching and swerves out of the way, only to lose control and collide with a tree, killing all the occupants.

Would the drunk driver be responsible for the deaths of those people, even though it was unintentional and his vehicle did not strike them? Of course he would, and the courts would hold him liable for it.

Like the drunk driver in that example, Ben caused the deaths of Katjaa and Duck. His actions were directly responsible for their deaths.

[RobtMyers]

Originally Posted by Scaeva

Ben most certainly is responsible for the deaths of Katjaa and Duck.

(...)

Would the drunk driver be responsible for the deaths of those people, even though it was unintentional and his vehicle did not strike them? Of course he would, and the courts would hold him liable for it.

Like the drunk driver in that example, Ben caused the deaths of Katjaa and Duck. His actions were directly responsible for their deaths.

You're missing something here. The driver in your analogy is guilty of getting drunk in the first place. Ben (a naive 17-yr-old kid who's scared out of his mind) has no choice about how good his judgment is.

By your reasoning Clem is to blame for the deaths of Lee, Kenny and Ben, depending on your play-through.

But you can't hold the judgment of a nine-year-old girl to the same standards as an adult, and you can't hold the judgment of a high-schooler to those standards either. Chuck pointed out that Ben was a kid, while the rest of the cast kept ignoring him. It wasn't until Ben lost his temper in ep. 5 that Kenny realized the mistake he'd made in expecting him to be brighter and more grown up.

Because odds are if Duck had reached the age of 17 he'd have been a lot like Ben.

[Kaserkin]

Originally Posted by RobtMyers

You're missing something here. The driver in your analogy is guilty of getting drunk in the first place. Ben (a naive 17-yr-old kid who's scared out of his mind) has no choice about how good his judgment is.

By your reasoning Clem is to blame for the deaths of Lee, Kenny and Ben, depending on your play-through.

But you can't hold the judgment of a nine-year-old girl to the same standards as an adult, and you can't hold the judgment of a high-schooler to those standards either. Chuck pointed out that Ben was a kid, while the rest of the cast kept ignoring him. It wasn't until Ben lost his temper in ep. 5 that Kenny realized the mistake he'd made in expecting him to be brighter and more grown up.

Because odds are if Duck had reached the age of 17 he'd have been a lot like Ben.

No. Duck would drop out high school

[QuarterPounderVlad]

LoL. Sorry for Ben. How about No.

[BenIsKindaCool]

Bandits were gonna raid the camp anyways,and it could've ended MUCH worse..It was just a matter of time..And anyone,who wants ''all the people to hate/like Ben'', it's not possible,there were haters,are haters and will always be haters..Ben's gone so I hope all of his ''haters'' got what they wanted.

[CarScar]

Originally Posted by BenIsKindaCool

Bandits were gonna raid the camp anyways,and it could've ended MUCH worse..It was just a matter of time..And anyone,who wants ''all the people to hate/like Ben'', it's not possible,there were haters,are haters and will always be haters..Ben's gone so I hope all of his ''haters'' got what they wanted.

I didn't like Ben and I didn't want him to die. I don't want anyone in my group to die, especially a kid. He just disappointed me, he always did things wrong and got people killed. Come episode four I didn't drop him and he said to me "before this is done, I promise I will do at least one thing right" (or something). Best thing he did in episode five was tell Kenny off. I would have had way, way more respect for the character if he told us to leave him in the alley when he fell, getting over his fear of being eaten alive... Meh.

[trd84]

Lee had everything under control with the bandits until Lily started a shootout.

[Mornai]

Originally Posted by CarScar

I didn't like Ben and I didn't want him to die. I don't want anyone in my group to die, especially a kid. He just disappointed me, he always did things wrong and got people killed. Come episode four I didn't drop him and he said to me "before this is done, I promise I will do at least one thing right" (or something). Best thing he did in episode five was tell Kenny off. I would have had way, way more respect for the character if he told us to leave him in the alley when he fell, getting over his fear of being eaten alive... Meh.

That's probably how it would really turn out in the end. As nice as it would have been to see Ben redeem himself, we don't get situations like those just because we strive for them. Fear is a powerful thing, and difficult to overcome, especially for a young kid like Ben.