Ben

[Platinumb]

Why the constant hatred?

[Nuked]

Originally Posted by Platinumb

Why the constant hatred?

Because he got 4 different characters killed.

[Toasty]

I think the major reasons people don't like him is because he led the bandits to invading the Motor Inn, and he ended up leaving Clementine in the street in episode 4.

[Platinumb]

Originally Posted by Toasty

he ended up leaving Clementine in the street in episode 4.

How is this different from Kenny not going to help Shawn?

except, Kenny is a grown man and Ben is a teen boy.

[Nuked]

Originally Posted by Platinumb

How is this different from Kenny not going to help Shawn?

except, Kenny is a grown man and Ben is a teen boy.

Kenny didn't cause Shawn's death, he just failed to prevent it. And he's a major asset. Saved Lee's life and is the leader of the group.

Ben's actions can result in the death of up to 5 people. (Duck, Katjaa, Carley/Duck, Chuck, maybe Kenny.) And he does nothing to help the group.

[k1ngMe]

Ben destroyed the group.

[Nuked]

Originally Posted by k1ngMe

Ben destroyed the group.

Pretty much

[Platinumb]

Originally Posted by Nuked

Kenny didn't cause Shawn's death, he just failed to prevent it. And he's a major asset. Saved Lee's life and is the leader of the group.

Ben's actions can result in the death of up to 5 people. (Duck, Katjaa, Carley/Duck, Chuck, maybe Kenny.) And he does nothing to help the group.

Kenny isn't the "leader of the group." Depending on how you play, Lilly can be, or Lee can claim they're "Democratic." In fact, Kenny seems to argue that the group should be more democratic whereas Lilly wants to run an empire.


Ben didn't kill anyone. The bandits did. And Ben's actions did get them to stop attacking, so he might have helped bring about a couple weeks of peace. I think Lee should have gone to help Clem, Katja, and Duck prior to Ben and Doug/Carley. That would have prevented Duck from being bitten.

Katja chooses to kill herself.

Doug and Carley choose to protect Ben - because he's A TEEN BOY.

Chuck put himself in harm's way. Ben couldn't have protected Clem, or he might have but then would have wound up getting killed. (He would have run out of bullets. Chuck had a shovel.) At any rate, if anything maybe Ben should have grabbed Clem's hand and tried to run.

Kenny chooses to give up his life to be with Ben. Ben doesn't cause that.

It's not that I dislike Kenny. He's one of my favorite characters. But he does choose to be a coward when it comes to helping out anybody but his family and those who go above and beyond to help his family.

As for Ben - he does contribute to the group. He's often lookout (at the motel, at the train), he gets Lee's gun for him, and especially in Episode 5 he's the last one up the attic stairs and the last one jumping off the balcony. At the end of the day, he is just a teen boy, and expectations of him cannot be the same as that of a grown man.

[double_u]

Originally Posted by Platinumb

Ben didn't kill anyone. The bandits did. And Ben's actions did get them to stop attacking, so he might have helped bring about a couple weeks of peace. I think Lee should have gone to help Clem, Katja, and Duck prior to Ben and Doug/Carley. That would have prevented Duck from being bitten.

Ben's deal set off the chain of events that got many people killed. He must bear some of the responsibility. In fact, Ben himself feels guilty about getting all the people killed because of the deal for the rest of the game. A guilty conscience needs no accuser, or so the saying goes. He knows what he did was wrong.

He should've have told the group that he made the deal, so they would have planned accordingly. This is the part I really hate about him. If he was that scared of Lilly, he could have at least told Lee and Kenny because those two saved his life. Lee's investigation proceeded the way it did because Lee and Lilly didn't know about the deal. When the attack came, the group was caught off guard.

Rommel49 made a really great post elsewhere on this forum too. He explained that by making that deal, Ben placed the entire group at constant risk because Lee, etc. would have to risk their lives more often to do supply runs in Macon. Plus, what if someone got sick and needed medicine that was given to the bandits?

And really? Lee's not at fault for Duck being bitten. Lee, Carley, and Lilly were the only ones who were able to lay down covering fire against the bandits and walkers. They were in no position to run around and grab people to safety.

Either way, Ben should have told the group about the deal so they could've planned ahead.

Originally Posted by Platinumb

Chuck put himself in harm's way. Ben couldn't have protected Clem, or he might have but then would have wound up getting killed. (He would have run out of bullets. Chuck had a shovel.) At any rate, if anything maybe Ben should have grabbed Clem's hand and tried to run.

We don't have to expect Ben to go walker slaying at that moment. But like you said, the least he could've done is grabbed Clem and run. That way Chuck would not had to sacrifice himself.

Originally Posted by Platinumb

As for Ben - he does contribute to the group. He's often lookout (at the motel, at the train), he gets Lee's gun for him, and especially in Episode 5 he's the last one up the attic stairs and the last one jumping off the balcony. At the end of the day, he is just a teen boy, and expectations of him cannot be the same as that of a grown man.

And he's the crappiest lookout in the world. He was sitting on top an RV, and yet the bandits managed to sneak in despite the fact there was a road's width of open space which makes sneaking up very difficult. Remember how Lilly saw movement in the woods before Lee even reached the road in episode 2? Remember how Carley managed to see the St. John's at GROUND level in episode 2? Ben can't even see a large group of bandits from an elevated level. That's pretty useless right there.

And the whole "he's just a teen" thing isn't something I really buy. This is an ZA, and Ben needs to know how to handle things for the same reason Chuck emphasized to Lee why Clem needed to toughen up. If we look at our own world, there's plenty of "teens" in Third World countries where doing the work of "grown men" is expected because life is tough.

[Platinumb]

Originally Posted by double_u

And really? Lee's not at fault for Duck being bitten. Lee, Carley, and Lilly were the only ones who were able to lay down covering fire against the bandits and walkers. They were in no position to run around and grab people to safety.

I didn't say Lee was at fault. I said Lee should have helped out Katjaa with the two kids prior to helping Ben and Doug/Carly.

[Platinumb]

Originally Posted by double_u

And he's the crappiest lookout in the world. He was sitting on top an RV, and yet the bandits managed to sneak in despite the fact there was a road's width of open space which makes sneaking up very difficult. Remember how Lilly saw movement in the woods before Lee even reached the road in episode 2? Remember how Carley managed to see the St. John's at GROUND level in episode 2? Ben can't even see a large group of bandits from an elevated level. That's pretty useless right there.

He was expecting to see bandits, to pick up the supplies. Just saying.

[Platinumb]

Originally Posted by double_u

Rommel49 made a really great post elsewhere on this forum too. He explained that by making that deal, Ben placed the entire group at constant risk because Lee, etc. would have to risk their lives more often to do supply runs in Macon. Plus, what if someone got sick and needed medicine that was given to the bandits?

Lilly made that argument originally, in the game.

And while on one hand, she is right; on the other hand, if giving some supplies to the bandits would keep them from attacking the group and weakening the motel's defenses, that might have been something the group would have been willing to deal with, especially considering there was somehow so many bandits.

[Platinumb]

Originally Posted by double_u

And the whole "he's just a teen" thing isn't something I really buy. This is an ZA, and Ben needs to know how to handle things for the same reason Chuck emphasized to Lee why Clem needed to toughen up. If we look at our own world, there's plenty of "teens" in Third World countries where doing the work of "grown men" is expected because life is tough.

Ben was from a first world country who played in the school band.

And there was nobody particularly watching out for him to "toughen him up," like Lee with Clementine.

[Zeruis]

Because he got Carley killed.

[aperose]

Originally Posted by double_u

And the whole "he's just a teen" thing isn't something I really buy. This is an ZA, and Ben needs to know how to handle things for the same reason Chuck emphasized to Lee why Clem needed to toughen up. If we look at our own world, there's plenty of "teens" in Third World countries where doing the work of "grown men" is expected because life is tough.

I agree, especially with this. To say Ben is a teen means nothing in this new walker-world. I honestly feel that Clementine became more useful than Ben the moment she learned to use a gun and stop being afraid. That didn't take her very long either. Ben, on the other hand, expects sympathy and trust to be handed to him. He goes on and on about people not having confidence in him and such but he gives not one reason for anyone to. I may have forgiven Ben if he could've kept his eye on Clem for one second in episode 4. several occasions he fails to show he can do even the simplest task.

1 - he leaves Clem when the zombies are attacking in the street when they first reach Savannah. Okay, I can get that maybe he was scared but this is a shitty thing to do.

2 - Ken and Lee go to River street and Ben is given one job - keep an eye on Clementine. She goes wandering the streets five minutes later.

3 - Clementine returns with Molly and Kenny and is lost once again with Ben sitting their with his thumb up his ass watching Kenny drink.

And probably even more that I'm not recalling. It's not even so much that he loses her but that he doesn't even seem to care that he did - doesn't think it's a problem at all. He's a whiny little boy who wants the protection of a group but doesn't know the meaning of cooperation. He thinks he can act like a tough man but he knows he'd be dead without the group, as seen when he threatens to just leave the RV when Lilly points fingers but then pleads to stay. I'm very happy that I dropped him.

[double_u]

Originally Posted by Platinumb

I didn't say Lee was at fault. I said Lee should have helped out Katjaa with the two kids prior to helping Ben and Doug/Carly.

The group was under fire, the best course of action for Lee was to lay down covering fire to allow others to run to safety. By not shooting at the bandits and running to help the kids first, the group would lose 1/3 (if Carley and Lilly were there) or 1/2 (if only Lilly) of its firepower against the numerically superior bandits. Heck, Lee might have even gotten himself killed.

Originally Posted by Platinumb

He was expecting to see bandits, to pick up the supplies. Just saying.

The grate was off to the side. So the bandits would've have to change direction on the road in clear view and then start climbing the wall. I mean, come on, there's only so much slack we can cut Ben.

Originally Posted by Platinumb

Lilly made that argument originally, in the game.

And while on one hand, she is right; on the other hand, if giving some supplies to the bandits would keep them from attacking the group and weakening the motel's defenses, that might have been something the group would have been willing to deal with, especially considering there was somehow so many bandits.

If this was in the group's benefit, then Ben should have told the group. He had no right making decisions by himself that placed others going on supply runs at risk.

Also, Ben didn't do it for the group. He was dumb enough to believe the bandits held his friend captive. The deal was to keep this supposed hostage alive.

Originally Posted by Platinumb

Ben was from a first world country who played in the school band.

And there was nobody particularly watching out for him to "toughen him up," like Lee with Clementine.

Except the ZA didn't happen overnight. Ben by now had many months to adapt to the new realities. He shouldn't stay as a band geek forever. As for him not having someone to look up to, maybe he should've ask Lee or Kenny. He admits repeatedly in 4 and 5 that he's useless. So instead of living with being a dead weight, maybe he should have asked someone to help him be a better member of the group?

Plus, given the way Carley defended him at the RV, it seems that she had take a big sister role to him.

So there are people. And he should've taken some initiative to ask someone to mentor him.

[Platinumb]

Originally Posted by double_u

The group was under fire, the best course of action for Lee was to lay down covering fire to allow others to run to safety. By not shooting at the bandits and running to help the kids first, the group would lose 1/3 (if Carley and Lilly were there) or 1/2 (if only Lilly) of its firepower against the numerically superior bandits. Heck, Lee might have even gotten himself killed.

What in the world are you talking about?

He could have shot at the bandits closer to Katjaa and the two eight year olds before shooting at the bandits near Ben and Doug/Carly. it would have made a lot more sense, bearing in mind that he'd be looking out for Clementine first.

[Platinumb]

Originally Posted by double_u

T
Also, Ben didn't do it for the group. He was dumb enough to believe the bandits held his friend captive. The deal was to keep this supposed hostage alive.

What friend? Supposedly, it was just Ben, Travis (who becomes either walker-bait or gets shot), and Mr. Parker left, by Ben's own words.

It's highly possible that he was b.s.ing Lee.

[trd84]

If Lily wasn't so hot headed Duck, Kat, Carley/Doug. wouldn't have died. Chuck didn't die because Ben didn't save Clem. Chuck wanted to distract them so the whole group could get away.

He did get Brie killed but that's a plus to me.

[Platinumb]

Originally Posted by double_u

Except the ZA didn't happen overnight. Ben by now had many months to adapt to the new realities. He shouldn't stay as a band geek forever. As for him not having someone to look up to, maybe he should've ask Lee or Kenny. He admits repeatedly in 4 and 5 that he's useless. So instead of living with being a dead weight, maybe he should have asked someone to help him be a better member of the group?

Plus, given the way Carley defended him at the RV, it seems that she had take a big sister role to him.

So there are people. And he should've taken some initiative to ask someone to mentor him.

This, I do agree with.

He was really whiny and scared all the time, and Clementine is way more mature at 8/9.

Then again, they say girls mature faster than boys, at any rate.