Ben

[Platinumb]

Originally Posted by trd84

He did get Brie killed but that's a plus to me.

That's true.

He did not pick a good time to break down and tell Kenny about giving bandits the supplies, for sure.

[Jaded X Gamer]

Originally Posted by double_u

And he's the crappiest lookout in the world. He was sitting on top an RV, and yet the bandits managed to sneak in despite the fact there was a road's width of open space which makes sneaking up very difficult. Remember how Lilly saw movement in the woods before Lee even reached the road in episode 2? Remember how Carley managed to see the St. John's at GROUND level in episode 2? Ben can't even see a large group of bandits from an elevated level. That's pretty useless right there.

And who put Ben on look out again? Was a certain someone who insisted on being in charge all the time. A certain someone when informed of how poor a choice Ben being a look out was, merely scoffed at the idea. Who was that person?

I don't disagree Ben's a colossal fuck up, but with a liberal misuse of causality you can probably blame everything on everyone and vice versa. Here I'll give you a little demo.

Ben saved everyone's lives! If he hadn't told everyone that anyone who dies come back as a walker, Larry would have come back as a zombie in the meat locker and killed Kenny, Lee, Lilly and Clem. Katjaa and Duck would be slaves for the Saint Johns and Carley/Doug and Ben probably would have been caught when they came to investigate.

OR

Ben killed everyone! If he hadn't told everyone that you always come back as a walker after you die, then Kenny wouldn't have freaked out and murdered Larry and Lee/Lilly would have revived him and Lilly would have never lost her shit and everything would probably be fine. (Unless it wasn't!)

And so on. You can blame everything bad that happens in episode five on Clem. If she hadn't run off, everyone would have gotten in the boat before Vernon showed up and nobody would have died looking for her. Or you could blame Kenny/Lee, if he hadn't insisted on looting the station wagon the campman never would have come after Clem. Except everyone would have starved if they didn't loot the station wagon, so they actually saved everyone, unless they wouldn't have starved, then they doomed everyone!.

Would of, Could of, Should of. Who knows? I do think blaming Ben for Doug and Carley is stupid though. Ignoring the fact that Lilly fucking pulled the trigger, Ben confessing probably wouldn't have changed much.

In Doug's case, if Ben confessed Lilly probably still would have pulled a gun on him when people weren't looking and Doug would have jumped in front of him to take the bullet. (Hell, maybe it's Doug's fault he died. He should have just stood there!)

In Carley's case, Lilly clearly had it out for her. She immediately accuses her and every time she turns to Ben she usually starts suggesting it was both him and Carley and at one point even asks Ben to tell her Carley did it, saying she'll leave him alone if he does. If Ben ever confessed Carley probably would have argued to not throw him out, told Lilly off and Lilly would probably just have shot both of them. (Carley got herself killed! She shouldn't have called a crazy person a bitch!)

I think the reason Carley isn’t on watch or even has her gun in Episode 3 is because Lilly irrationally distrusted her and wouldn’t let her be armed anymore. If Carley had been on watch she’d probably gotten the drop on the Bandits...or they’d had shot her first from a distance with a rifle. Who the fuck knows?

[Nuked]

Originally Posted by Platinumb

That's true.

He did not pick a good time to break down and tell Kenny about giving bandits the supplies, for sure.

Ben is pretty much retarded. In his defense though, Clem gets 2 or 3 people killed herself.

[BenIsKindaCool]

Originally Posted by Zeruis

Because he got Carley killed.

No,Carley got herself killed.If she just wouldn't say all that shit to Lilly,she'd be alive..Truth hurts :/

Anywho,I think that the one's who hate Ben will never stop hating him.Everybody's got their own opinion and we can't change it.But even in real life,I couldn't just let someone go (like Ben in The belltower) even if I Hated him/her.Maybe only when (s)he was super dangerous,But Ben was just young and stupid.He was sorry for everything he had done and from the beggining of episode 2 he wanted to just help with something.But because he couldn't do nothing in past episodes he started to not care in episode 4.And c'mon,if you have no-one left in ZA then Who wouldn't wanna help their friend..
..But The belltower place scared me.If that was fucking Larry there,hanging and you would have The same option to pull him up (don't ask how) or let him go.Then what?He's been an ass with you this whole time and never felt sorry,But Ben,The only thing he's been doing IS apologizing (?) ...
But it's just a videogame character (for now) so I can't,and I wouldn't really blame everyone being nonsensles,coldhearted bastards.But I am tottaly OK if you hate Ben.But just killing him like THAT.. :/

[Zeruis]

Originally Posted by BenIsKindaCool

No,Carley got herself killed.If she just wouldn't say all that shit to Lilly,she'd be alive..Truth hurts :/

Anywho,I think that the one's who hate Ben will never stop hating him.Everybody's got their own opinion and we can't change it.But even in real life,I couldn't just let someone go (like Ben in The belltower) even if I Hated him/her.Maybe only when (s)he was super dangerous,But Ben was just young and stupid.He was sorry for everything he had done and from the beggining of episode 2 he wanted to just help with something.But because he couldn't do nothing in past episodes he started to not care in episode 4.And c'mon,if you have no-one left in ZA then Who wouldn't wanna help their friend..
..But The belltower place scared me.If that was fucking Larry there,hanging and you would have The same option to pull him up (don't ask how) or let him go.Then what?He's been an ass with you this whole time and never felt sorry,But Ben,The only thing he's been doing IS apologizing (?) ...
But it's just a videogame character (for now) so I can't,and I wouldn't really blame everyone being nonsensles,coldhearted bastards.But I am tottaly OK if you hate Ben.But just killing him like THAT.. :/

Carley would've still been alive if Ben confessed in the first place. He'd die instead.

[SeriousScar]

If you don't know why everyone hates Ben you either didn't play the same game we did or you lack the capacity to judge the actions and qualities of other people.

I'm not explaining what has already been explained by the others in this thread, instead I'll add what hasn't.

Ben is an idiot. The game points this out quite clearly for you in what I guessed was supposed to be a comical moment. When he removes the axe that was barring the blood soaked door, if it had been a sitcom you would have heard a trumpet (?): "wah wah waaaah".

[Rock114]

Not just removing A hatchet, but THE hatchet he handed Lee before going to Crawford. And not just from any set of bload soaked doors, but the blood soaked doors that they used to get away from the walkers that found them pretty uch 30 seconds after arriving. The kid's just straight retarded.

[BenIsKindaCool]

Originally Posted by Zeruis

Carley would've still been alive if Ben confessed in the first place. He'd die instead.

But Ben is a human too..I know that everyone's gonna say now ''He deserved it,he's a fucking idiot and he lied to everyone'' but he understands what he did was wrong.Now,if you were Ben and you had done something like this,what would you do?Confess it? I don't think so..And don't come here and say ''I would never be so stupid to do something like give bandidts our stuff'',cause everyone is..

How could he make everything right if they won't let him do anything..?

[ZeroShoot]

Originally Posted by Platinumb

Ben couldn't have protected Clem, or he might have but then would have wound up getting killed (...) At any rate, if anything maybe Ben should have grabbed Clem's hand and tried to run.

Yes THAT is one point, after that one I started hating him, I mean: how hard can it be to grab Clem and run away, he left that girl to die. And i don't get why she stood up for him at Crawford.
Now about the motel: he should've told the group so they could prepare, but he didn't and THAT's where he fucked up.
I understand he's a teenager, and he doesn't know about his family which is on his mind like probably all the time, but seriously he is given easy tasks like: "watch Clementine" and he fucks that one up twice, letting her play in the backyard all alone is just stupid, walkers could be around every corner, what if they got through that gate? she might be dead..

Originally Posted by Rock114

Not just removing A hatchet, but THE hatchet he handed Lee before going to Crawford. And not just from any set of bload soaked doors, but the blood soaked doors that they used to get away from the walkers that found them pretty uch 30 seconds after arriving. The kid's just straight retarded.

This! (hope i quoted right)

[ZombieGoBoom]

Originally Posted by SeriousScar

Ben is an idiot. The game points this out quite clearly for you in what I guessed was supposed to be a comical moment. When he removes the axe that was barring the blood soaked door, if it had been a sitcom you would have heard a trumpet (?): "wah wah waaaah".

Nostalgia Critic does it better and its more fitting considering my patience for Ben was long gone by then (keep the volume down on you computer). WAH WAH WAAAAAAAH!!!

Seriously, damn it Ben.

[Mornai]

Originally Posted by Platinumb

What friend? Supposedly, it was just Ben, Travis (who becomes either walker-bait or gets shot), and Mr. Parker left, by Ben's own words.

It's highly possible that he was b.s.ing Lee.

I think it's highly likely Ben had more than two friends in the entire world. Plus, if Lee chooses to threaten Ben when he reveals that he was the one giving them supplies, why would he lie? Lee outright says he can toss him off the train and nobody would know. There was absolutely no reason to lie there, especially if he knew his life was in danger.

I think Ben giving them supplies had no beneficial effects whatsoever. The bandits stopped attacking, but in a way i think this was worse. They completely halted all the attacks, giving the group a false sense of security, as if they had forgotten about them. Thus they let their guard down, and were unprepared for the sudden raid the bandits launched when they didn't find the supplies.

Had Ben not given them supplies, the group would have been more alert and always prepared due to the constant attacks.

[The Fallen]

Originally Posted by BenIsKindaCool

But Ben is a human too..I know that everyone's gonna say now ''He deserved it,he's a fucking idiot and he lied to everyone'' but he understands what he did was wrong.Now,if you were Ben and you had done something like this,what would you do?Confess it? I don't think so..And don't come here and say ''I would never be so stupid to do something like give bandidts our stuff'',cause everyone is..

How could he make everything right if they won't let him do anything..?

Yes i would have confessed. Probably at the motor inn and if not then certainly on the side of the road. I don't think i could stand by while a friend is aggressively accused and eventually killed for my crime.

One quote when Carley getting Lee to confess is quite useful here "there's never going to be a good time, but there will be plenty of bad ones". After his mistake has already blown the group apart is definitely a bad one. The initial mistake doesn't actually have too dire consequences. The lack of trust is what really totaled the group.

Its important to face up to and deal with your mistakes and that's what Ben didn't do.

[Nuked]

I like Ben as a person, but he has no idea how to handle tough situations.

[ColtPeacemaker00]

Originally Posted by double_u

Ben's deal set off the chain of events that got many people killed. He must bear some of the responsibility. In fact, Ben himself feels guilty about getting all the people killed because of the deal for the rest of the game. A guilty conscience needs no accuser, or so the saying goes. He knows what he did was wrong.

He should've have told the group that he made the deal, so they would have planned accordingly. This is the part I really hate about him. If he was that scared of Lilly, he could have at least told Lee and Kenny because those two saved his life. Lee's investigation proceeded the way it did because Lee and Lilly didn't know about the deal. When the attack came, the group was caught off guard.

Rommel49 made a really great post elsewhere on this forum too. He explained that by making that deal, Ben placed the entire group at constant risk because Lee, etc. would have to risk their lives more often to do supply runs in Macon. Plus, what if someone got sick and needed medicine that was given to the bandits?

And really? Lee's not at fault for Duck being bitten. Lee, Carley, and Lilly were the only ones who were able to lay down covering fire against the bandits and walkers. They were in no position to run around and grab people to safety.

Either way, Ben should have told the group about the deal so they could've planned ahead.



We don't have to expect Ben to go walker slaying at that moment. But like you said, the least he could've done is grabbed Clem and run. That way Chuck would not had to sacrifice himself.



And he's the crappiest lookout in the world. He was sitting on top an RV, and yet the bandits managed to sneak in despite the fact there was a road's width of open space which makes sneaking up very difficult. Remember how Lilly saw movement in the woods before Lee even reached the road in episode 2? Remember how Carley managed to see the St. John's at GROUND level in episode 2? Ben can't even see a large group of bandits from an elevated level. That's pretty useless right there.

And the whole "he's just a teen" thing isn't something I really buy. This is an ZA, and Ben needs to know how to handle things for the same reason Chuck emphasized to Lee why Clem needed to toughen up. If we look at our own world, there's plenty of "teens" in Third World countries where doing the work of "grown men" is expected because life is tough.

Lee has no fault in Duck being bitten? Really? If you believe this play the attack on the motel again and watch what Lee does when he's supposed to be covering Clem's, Kat's, and Duck's retreat to the RV. Lee drops a few bandits and Clem breaks for the RV first, does Lee continue with his duty and keep protecting Kat and Duck until they too can reach the safety of the RV? No he thinks it more important to neglect this duty, drop his rifle, and give Clementine a reassuring hug before she boards, allowing the walker ample time to attack Kat and Duck. If he would have would waited until everyone had boarded to hug his "little darling" and check that she was alright, Duck would not have been bitten, and the tragic scenario that followed would have been averted. If Kenny knew what Lee did what do you think his reaction would have been? But for some reason all this is glossed over and the entire thing is always laid at the feet of the favorite punching bag. "Lee could never do something so stupid or selfish, thats what Ben's for!". Yes Ben had a hand in the attack of the motel, his deal was also responsible for the bandits halting the previous attacks on the group and leaving them in peace. Ben's major screwup here was not going to the group and telling them of the bandits deal offer and letting everyone decide. But Duck being bitten, and the subsequent death of he and Kat was directly due to the negligence of Lee.

[Platinumb]

Originally Posted by BenIsKindaCool

No,Carley got herself killed.If she just wouldn't say all that shit to Lilly,she'd be alive..Truth hurts :/

Anywho,I think that the one's who hate Ben will never stop hating him.Everybody's got their own opinion and we can't change it.But even in real life,I couldn't just let someone go (like Ben in The belltower) even if I Hated him/her.Maybe only when (s)he was super dangerous,But Ben was just young and stupid.He was sorry for everything he had done and from the beggining of episode 2 he wanted to just help with something.But because he couldn't do nothing in past episodes he started to not care in episode 4.And c'mon,if you have no-one left in ZA then Who wouldn't wanna help their friend..
..But The belltower place scared me.If that was fucking Larry there,hanging and you would have The same option to pull him up (don't ask how) or let him go.Then what?He's been an ass with you this whole time and never felt sorry,But Ben,The only thing he's been doing IS apologizing (?) ...
But it's just a videogame character (for now) so I can't,and I wouldn't really blame everyone being nonsensles,coldhearted bastards.But I am tottaly OK if you hate Ben.But just killing him like THAT.. :/

I don't understand hating him. Being annoyed when he makes stupid moves or does stupid things is one thing, but flat-out hating him? No, it makes no sense.

[Platinumb]

Originally Posted by Zeruis

Carley would've still been alive if Ben confessed in the first place. He'd die instead.

It's possible she would have jumped in front of him, like Doug. Or maybe if Ben would have fessed up, Lilly would have calmed down a little and tried to deal with it more calmly because she figured at least NOW he's telling the truth.

As someone else said, ifs, ands, or buts...

[Platinumb]

Originally Posted by SeriousScar

If you don't know why everyone hates Ben you either didn't play the same game we did or you lack the capacity to judge the actions and qualities of other people.

I'm not explaining what has already been explained by the others in this thread, instead I'll add what hasn't.

Ben is an idiot. The game points this out quite clearly for you in what I guessed was supposed to be a comical moment. When he removes the axe that was barring the blood soaked door, if it had been a sitcom you would have heard a trumpet (?): "wah wah waaaah".

I still think Ben removing that axe was a mishap of the game. There were zombies clawing at that door every time Lee passed it, and then suddenly Ben walks by and they're all gone? Makes little sense, unless the zombies are suddenly getting "smarter."

[The Fallen]

Originally Posted by Platinumb

It's possible she would have jumped in front of him, like Doug. Or maybe if Ben would have fessed up, Lilly would have calmed down a little and tried to deal with it more calmly because she figured at least NOW he's telling the truth.

As someone else said, ifs, ands, or buts...

Maybe it would have helped, maybe it wouldn't have, but i could have had respect for him if he had done that. Stepped up to the plate to take the heat off a friend. That's the problem, I dont hate Ben, but when everyone needs each other you can't respect a coward. Its the same thing that makes him leave clem. He doesn't mean it and it shows in his guilt, but... come on man!

[Platinumb]

Originally Posted by ZeroShoot

I understand he's a teenager, and he doesn't know about his family which is on his mind like probably all the time, but seriously he is given easy tasks like: "watch Clementine" and he fucks that one up twice, letting her play in the backyard all alone is just stupid, walkers could be around every corner, what if they got through that gate? she might be dead..


:

If you notice, he was hanging out with Kenny, who was getting drunk off his *** and probably talking about his family TO Ben, who was feeling guilty about giving supplies to the bandits and like Katjaa's and Duck's deaths were his fault. His emotional state was probably wrecked (this is confirmed when he tells Lee he has to be honest with Kenny at the school), and I gather that is why he didn't keep his eye on Clementine.

And yeah, he's nasty about failing to watch Clementine with Lee, but I think that that was not because he didn't care about Clementine. I think it was because of the emotional turmoil of thinking he killed Kenny's family and here Kenny is talking about them to him, and maybe he even thinks Clem can take care of herself better than he can take care of her. (After all, she kills a zombie to save Molly at Crawford in front of him or he comes home to see she protected a sick Omid from a zombie who broke in the house if you leave her with a gun.)

I'm not justifying Ben's ineptitude with even a simple task like watching a kid, but I can understand the guilt. At the end of the day, shouldn't Kenny, who is also an adult, feel some sort of responsibility for watching a little girl, even if he's lost his own family? I don't think it's heartless of me to say that. Here he is, getting drunk when a young girl, a teenage boy, and his best friend, not to mention a pregnant woman and an injured man, are depending on him when he's one of the few able-bodied men left. He's in deep emotional turmoil over the deaths of his family, but so is Ben with guilt, and while nobody but Lee knew that, Lee knew when he gave Ben the babysitting duties.

[Platinumb]

Originally Posted by Mornai

i think it's highly likely Ben had more than two friends in the entire world. Plus, if Lee chooses to threaten Ben when he reveals that he was the one giving them supplies, why would he lie? Lee outright says he can toss him off the train and nobody would know. There was absolutely no reason to lie there, especially if he knew his life was in danger.

I think Ben giving them supplies had no beneficial effects whatsoever. The bandits stopped attacking, but in a way i think this was worse. They completely halted all the attacks, giving the group a false sense of security, as if they had forgotten about them. Thus they let their guard down, and were unprepared for the sudden raid the bandits launched when they didn't find the supplies.

Had Ben not given them supplies, the group would have been more alert and always prepared due to the constant attacks.

I'm not saying Ben didn't have more than Travis and Mr. Parker. I'm saying that by the time Ben ended up in their camp, he was telling everybody there "It was just us three." But now thinking about it, maybe it was because during the bandit raid, the bandits had kidnapped a female friend or something and he didn't want to tell a new group?

I'm not sure if the group would have been more alert. Lilly was solely in charge of security when Kenny and Lee were gone; the motel might have been attacked when she was busy trying to figure out about supplies with Ben in charge of lookout duties and NO men able to protect the kids and Katjaa.