If you could save 1 person... no Lee

[montesinos7]

Just letting you all know there are no free spells here. Saving duck only saves Duck. Saving Larry only saves Larry. No ways to cheat into saving more than one. You fuckers. (I'm just kidding, love you all.)

[UndeadDollface]

I loathe to vote with the majority on this, but I would choose Carley. She had the right combination of competence (batteries not withstanding) and empathy to make a reliable group member. Plus she was in my corner pretty much 100% of the time. After her, either Mark or Doug for basically the same reasons.

[The Fallen]

Originally Posted by UndeadDollface

I loathe to vote with the majority on this, but I would choose Carley. She had the right combination of competence (batteries not withstanding) and empathy to make a reliable group member. Plus she was in my corner pretty much 100% of the time. After her, either Mark or Doug for basically the same reasons.

Pretty much this. Carley was the only member of the group (other than Lee) i would feel safe trusting my life in. All the others had issues with competence (Ben, Doug, Duck, Katjaa, Larry) or loyalty (Kenny, Lilly, Larry), except for maybe Mark and Chuck but thats a case of "hardly knew ye" so i cant long for them back. She deserves her popularity, and didn't deserve her death.

My top 3 ranking.

1. Carley (explained above, best all around person from the game)
2. Doug (nice guy)
3. Kenny (would be above Doug if it weren't for needing his family, also despite me considering him a close friend i got mixed messages in return so i dont know if the liking was mutual.)

[The Writer]

I chose Carley.
She would've been a good mother for Clem, after Lee's death.
I can imagine Carley helping Clem with her practice at shooting, keeping her hair short, etc.
That would be very satisfying.

[aperose]

Given everyone's emotional state, I chose Mark. Kenny was ready to die. Lilly would also still be unstable, I think. SO I chose Mark since he seemed like a decent guy who could help out.

[RustyRifle11]

Originally Posted by Scaeva

Duck.

Duck's death was the absolute lowest point for the group as survivors, as the safety and well-being children were always the top priority. Losing Duck was a disaster.

That being said I never would have wanted the writers to scrap that story line. Duck's death was one of the most emotional scenes in all of gaming.

AGREED!! Plus his ADHD is just pure awesome! And he would been more beneficial to the group when he grew into a man learning to hunt, shoot, defend, etc.

[BlackBoxx]

I have to go with Ben. He never managed to make up for any of the mistakes he made. Even before admitting it to the group, no one really took him seriously. Everything was just stacked against him, so I'd like to see him get a second chance (and I use the word 'second' here loosely).

[RustyRifle11]

Originally Posted by BlackBoxx

I have to go with Ben. He never managed to make up for any of the mistakes he made. Even before admitting it to the group, no one really took him seriously. Everything was just stacked against him, so I'd like to see him get a second chance (and I use the word 'second' here loosely).

It would have been much better for Benny Boy if they gave Lee the option to throw him off the moving train when Ben admitted to Lee that it was his fault Carly died!

[AnnaSan]

I want to save Kenny because he's my bro, but if I save him, I have to save Duck as well and I can't save 2 people. So I'll save Carley. Either her or Mark.

[AnekiGX]

Carley, of course.

[montesinos7]

Why would any one choose Ben.

Killed:
Carley/Doug (Indirectly Caused)
Duck (Indirectly Caused)
Katjaa (Indirectly Caused)
Brie (Indirectly Caused)
Tess (Indirectly Caused)

[double_u]

Anyone ever saw that similar poll on the TWD wikia home page a while ago? Carley got like 62% of the votes out of the 13000+ people who voted

[BlackBoxx]

Originally Posted by montesinos7

Why would any one choose Ben.

Killed:
Carley/Doug (Indirectly Caused)
Duck (Indirectly Caused)
Katjaa (Indirectly Caused)
Brie (Indirectly Caused)
Tess (Indirectly Caused)

Carley/Doug were murdered by Lilly being a basket case. Yes, Ben was responsible for the situation that caused them to leave the motel, but he is not responsible for the actions of other people.

Duck, yes, you could say he had a hand, but again, he is not to blame for the bandits attacking. That was their choice. They fired the guns. They attracted the walkers.

Katjaa made her own choice to kill herself. That was not Ben's fault. Kenny found a way to deal with Duck's death without shooting himself, so why couldn't Katjaa?

Brie... Yes. Ben caused that one directly. Walkers make no choices, so they can't really be blamed for what they did. If Ben had recognized the hatchet as the same one he handed to Lee before the excursion, he would have no choice but to realize that someone from his own group had placed it there. Knowing that he screws stuff up, he should have not tinkered with it.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Chuck. Sadly, I have to defend Ben from the accusations here as well. Ben left Clementine in danger, and I'm as angry as the next guy over it. However, once again, Chuck made his own choice to save Clem, which ended up getting him killed, not Ben. Chuck would be alive if he didn't help her, and Ben didn't force him to go back.

Tess? Really? We're going to add that to the list now? She died because she was ill-prepared to survive in a zombie apocalypse. She couldn't handle losing her son and was unable to find more supplies once the group stole them. That's not on Ben. Our group managed to keep more people alive even when supplies were scarce. Stealing their supplies isn't what killed the stranger's wife and daughter.

I don't mean this as an attack on your views, but it was just a convenient post for me to address with my own. I can understand why people hate Ben. I'm pissed at him half the time too, but I don't blame him.

[The Fallen]

Originally Posted by BlackBoxx

Carley/Doug were murdered by Lilly being a basket case. Yes, Ben was responsible for the situation that caused them to leave the motel, but he is not responsible for the actions of other people.

Duck, yes, you could say he had a hand, but again, he is not to blame for the bandits attacking. That was their choice. They fired the guns. They attracted the walkers.

Katjaa made her own choice to kill herself. That was not Ben's fault. Kenny found a way to deal with Duck's death without shooting himself, so why couldn't Katjaa?

Brie... Yes. Ben caused that one directly. Walkers make no choices, so they can't really be blamed for what they did. If Ben had recognized the hatchet as the same one he handed to Lee before the excursion, he would have no choice but to realize that someone from his own group had placed it there. Knowing that he screws stuff up, he should have not tinkered with it.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Chuck. Sadly, I have to defend Ben from the accusations here as well. Ben left Clementine in danger, and I'm as angry as the next guy over it. However, once again, Chuck made his own choice to save Clem, which ended up getting him killed, not Ben. Chuck would be alive if he didn't help her, and Ben didn't force him to go back.

Tess? Really? We're going to add that to the list now? She died because she was ill-prepared to survive in a zombie apocalypse. She couldn't handle losing her son and was unable to find more supplies once the group stole them. That's not on Ben. Our group managed to keep more people alive even when supplies were scarce. Stealing their supplies isn't what killed the stranger's wife and daughter.

I don't mean this as an attack on your views, but it was just a convenient post for me to address with my own. I can understand why people hate Ben. I'm pissed at him half the time too, but I don't blame him.

Well how do you define blame? No he is not solely responsible for any of them, but he at very least facilitates them.

While he never pulls the trigger himself his role in those deaths shouldn't be overlooked or ignored. He consistently causes dangerous situations. Without him i think only Tess's death would have happened anyway.

You are being to keen to put it all down to one thing, Everything is a result of many things coming together tragically, if we look at who was involved in causing each of those deaths

Carley: Lilly, Ben
Duck: Ben,Bandits
Katjaa: Ben, Bandits, Kenny, Herself
Brie: Ben
Chuck: Ben, Clem, Himself
Tess: Campman, The whole group.

Ben is the constant factor, You cant say he directly killed any of them (except maybe Brie), but he was a liability.

[The Fallen]

Originally Posted by double_u

Anyone ever saw that similar poll on the TWD wikia home page a while ago? Carley got like 62% of the votes out of the 13000+ people who voted

Especially remarkable given she died a long time ago now, compared to second place Kenny he was there till (nearly) the end. Evidently she made a lasting impact. Shame fan favorites don't mean a lot in this franchise.

Maybe we all still secretly hope enough tearful voting will cause a retcon

[BlackBoxx]

Originally Posted by The Fallen

Well how do you define blame? No he is not solely responsible for any of them, but he at very least facilitates them.

While he never pulls the trigger himself his role in those deaths shouldn't be overlooked or ignored. He consistently causes dangerous situations. Without him i think only Tess's death would have happened anyway.

You are being to keen to put it all down to one thing, Everything is a result of many things coming together tragically, if we look at who was involved in causing each of those deaths

Carley: Lilly, Ben
Duck: Ben,Bandits
Katjaa: Ben, Bandits, Kenny, Herself
Brie: Ben
Chuck: Ben, Clem, Himself
Tess: Campman, The whole group.

Ben is the constant factor, You cant say he directly killed any of them (except maybe Brie), but he was a liability.

Yes, he's a factor, but I would say he's not the defining one in any of them, except for Brie's death, and possibly Chuck's.

I'm a firm believer in personal responsibility. In all of those situations (again, barring Brie's), bad things happen due to the aggression of others, not Ben. Was Lee not to blame for killing a senator when he wasn't feeling well? No. He killed the man. He was directly responsible. Ben is indirectly responsible for most of the things he's blamed.

The bandits were not forced to raid the motel. They chose to do that. The raid drew walkers. A walker bit Duck. Ben knowing that they would respond with violence does not abdicate the bandits for using said violence. Besides, Ben didn't prevent them from getting the last delivery. The way he was doing things, the bandits wouldn't have attacked that day.

Katjaa was not forced to kill herself with grief. She chose to pull the trigger on her own.

Lilly was not forced to kill Carley/Doug. She chose to shoot.

Chuck was not forced to rescue Clem. I'm glad he did, but he would have lived had he not chosen to save her.

Brie didn't have any option in her death. It was her job to keep watch, and Ben let loose the walkers that got her while doing her job. That was Ben's fault.

I'm not saying Ben was blameless in all of it. I'm saying he's a scapegoat getting more blame than he deserves.

[The Fallen]

Originally Posted by BlackBoxx

Yes, he's a factor, but I would say he's not the defining one in any of them, except for Brie's death, and possibly Chuck's.

I'm a firm believer in personal responsibility. In all of those situations (again, barring Brie's), bad things happen due to the aggression of others, not Ben. Was Lee not to blame for killing a senator when he wasn't feeling well? No. He killed the man. He was directly responsible. Ben is indirectly responsible for most of the things he's blamed.

The bandits were not forced to raid the motel. They chose to do that. The raid drew walkers. A walker bit Duck. Ben knowing that they would respond with violence does not abdicate the bandits for using said violence. Besides, Ben didn't prevent them from getting the last delivery. The way he was doing things, the bandits wouldn't have attacked that day.

Katjaa was not forced to kill herself with grief. She chose to pull the trigger on her own.

Lilly was not forced to kill Carley/Doug. She chose to shoot.

Chuck was not forced to rescue Clem. I'm glad he did, but he would have lived had he not chosen to save her.

Brie didn't have any option in her death. It was her job to keep watch, and Ben let loose the walkers that got her while doing her job. That was Ben's fault.

I'm not saying Ben was blameless in all of it. I'm saying he's a scapegoat getting more blame than he deserves.

Does he get more blame than he deserves? probably, but the problem is a little bit of blame for this and an "indirectly caused" there begins to add up when people you care about are dying.

As for your individual assessments i agree mostly except for Chuck, because if he had not done that Clem would have died, so while it is Chucks decision that it should be him it is Bens running that meant somebody had to die

also the Bandits, since as you say Ben knew what kind of people they were, nobody's saying their not awful people, but he should have known better. If you invite a mass murderer into your home and he kills someone whose fault is it? Being able to anticipate others behavior is an important skill. He let people he knew were dangerous get their foot in the door.

[BlackBoxx]

Originally Posted by The Fallen

Does he get more blame than he deserves? probably, but the problem is a little bit of blame for this and an "indirectly caused" there begins to add up when people you care about are dying.

As for your individual assessments i agree mostly except for Chuck, because if he had not done that Clem would have died, so while it is Chucks decision that it should be him it is Bens running that meant somebody had to die

also the Bandits, since as you say Ben knew what kind of people they were, nobody's saying their not awful people, but he should have known better. If you invite a mass murderer into your home and he kills someone whose fault is it? Being able to anticipate others behavior is an important skill. He let people he knew were dangerous get their foot in the door.

I can't disagree with anything you just said. Ben definitely deserves some blame.

He did cause the situation where Clem needed to be rescued, but so did she. If she had stuck by Lee like she was up until 30 seconds prior, there would be no need for anyone to try and save her. All Ben had to do was take her hand and run, so yes, I do blame him for not being willing/able to do that, even in the heat of the moment.

But the motel raid, I will never blame on Ben. He was actively trying to prevent them from attacking, and succeeded. If he hadn't made the deal with them, who knows when they would have attacked? Who would have died then? It was an inevitable situation, so I can't blame Ben for it. The worst I can do is blame him for not telling the others what was going on. That wouldn't change the situation much though.

[Inconsu.]

Mark. The way he died was just sick.

[double_u]

Originally Posted by The Fallen

Especially remarkable given she died a long time ago now, compared to second place Kenny he was there till (nearly) the end. Evidently she made a lasting impact.

Definitely. Carley's missing presence really shows in how Lee relates to the group. She was really the one character that Lee could always depend on and trust. After the RV, he just couldn't rely on others as much if at all. For example:

• Kenny is a mess after Duck's and Katjaa's deaths. Totally understandable, but it leads to Kenny not thinking straight.
• If you didn't help Kenny at the meat locker and generally disagreed with him, he's even more of a headache and "hostile" after the RV.
• Omid and Christa are essentially unknown new members. It wasn't until episode 5 I felt some rapport towards them.
• Clem, as awesome as she is, is still just a kid who can't offer the same type of support like an adult. Plus, I definitely felt a very disappointing breach of trust when I found out about the walkie-talkie.
• Molly was too mercenary and, again, was too new in the group to develop rapport.
• Chuck seemed like a good guy, and I thought he would be the voice of reason and experience, but he didn't last long.
• Ben is useless.

I'm not saying I don't like the above characters (except Ben, I don't like him), but merely pointing out that group dynamics after the RV is a lot less trustful and a lot more stressful. By making Carley so dependable and a love interest and then taking her out the game, the writers really did a fine job in making the last two episodes so much more intense.