Telltale and Puzzles: A Rant.

[Jake]

I'm glad that there are a ton of companies making adventure games of all kinds at this point. As a life long adventure game fan I'm the happiest I've been with the adventure game genre's (and spin-offs') output and variety and promise in a long long time. The '00s were not the best, and the '10s are very different than the '90s, but there are plenty of things to be interested in. This year we have Dreamfall Chapters and Double Fine Adventure on the way -- both mind-blowing things I never expected to see happen, ever -- while indies continue to churn out more and more exciting stuff every month.

I don't think anyone would ever say the Walking Dead was trying to touch the space '90s adventure games occupy, but I still personally consider it an adventure game. I might have a wider definition than other people, but I don't know what I can do about that. LucasArts made a very specific type of game in the '90s, Sierra made their own type, and Westwood made theirs. Asking Telltale to ape any other developer or their style seems harsh, and also defeating of creativity.

"The adventure game is dead" somehow came into fashion as something people said in the 13 months between Grim Fandango and The Longest Journey, and didn't let up until just recently. Now that the adventure game isn't dead, people seem mad that adventure games aren't exactly the same as they were 20 years ago. Which is true, it's been 20 years. Expecting the tree to stop growing because nobody is looking is unrealistic. Except that there are developers who do make games exactly like the ones from before -- the Wadjet Eyes and other indies out there -- maybe with a smaller budget than the '90s but with the same art styles, interface aesthetic, and general puzzle aesthetic. So we've got all this stuff going on, and people aren't happy, and I don't know what there is to do about it. I love traditional adventure games, I still replay Monkey Island 2 and Full Throttle around once a year, but working on The Walking Dead and doing some of the stuff we got to do with interactive storytelling and player experience is stuff I would never take back.

I don't think the solution is to hope for Telltale to embrace the '90s any more than I think the solution is to abandon the past. Hopefully both and neither and something in between can all co-exist, but it just will never be under the same roof (and, in the case of the adventure game, it never has been).

[MtnPeak]

I don't think the solution is to hope for Telltale to embrace the '90s any more than I think the solution is to abandon the past. Hopefully both and neither and something in between can all co-exist, but it just will never be under the same roof (and, in the case of the adventure game, it never has been).

Okay, so then TellTale will embrace the early 1980s with their interactive movies a la Dragon's Lair. Got it.

Seriously, since when did we associate puzzle-based gameplay with the past, and less interactivity with the future? This is not a question of past versus future, but rather a question of game design philosophy and what we enjoy and value in our adventure games.

[MusicallyInspired]

Jake, it's been a while since I've seen you (or anybody from Telltale, really) post on the forums. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I never said I hoped Telltale would do anything. Because I know they won't. You're doing what you want to do. That's great, really. More power to you. I mean that. I just don't feel you can call it adventure anymore because much of what was adventure has been all but removed. I mean, you're whole mantra now has basically been revealed to be "Forgo the puzzles, be more flashy with the story". I don't consider Adventure to be solely story. For that matter, I don't consider it solely puzzles either.

At the end of the day, more is being removed than is being added. It's just not advancement the way I see it. I'm not upset over this, I'm just disappointed. I know that Telltale's products hold no interest for me now and I'm fine with that. Some call what you've done advancement. I do not. It's just different and, in my eyes, more of a shallow incarnation than the evolution you're selling it to be. I'm not taking jabs, I'm just being honest.

I'm not trying to change Telltale or wish they were something they're not and never will be. I don't care specifically for the reason that, as you've said, there are plenty of other fish in the sea. Especially now with all these Kickstarters and successful indie games.

[Secret Fawful]

Originally Posted by Jake

snip

This is exactly the opposite of Telltale's PR, and if Telltale isn't claiming the face of adventure games now, then why all the fluff about evolving the adventure game? You make great points, Jake. Nobody wants to rob Telltale of their creativity. The biggest point I make, and I think Musical, and people like us, is that Telltale is not doing what it's claiming to do. It's not evolving the adventure game. It's just making another kind, and then marketing it as the best next step. That's dishonest. It's a lie. It's not a step at all.

You can ask us "Well, how are Telltale not evolving the adventure game?"

Well, it's been said around here a million times. The case has been made over and over and over at varying times for why Telltale isn't making the adventure game better or more advanced.

Doesn't mean Telltale makes bad games or bad stories. But I resent the claims the company makes, because it's a fraud. It's not real innovation. It's not a massive brainstorm you guys suddenly can lay claim to. People could have been making adventure games more casual years ago. Clock Tower is more casual and is just as cinematic as it needs to be, hell, it was based on a movie that probably doesn't go beyond cult status.

The Dig was cinematic. Full Throttle was cinematic. Cinematic and adventure games isn't new. You didn't invent it. You've gotten better at telling stories with your engine. You've gotten better at writing. And maybe puzzles would hold you guys back from evolving YOUR talents. But it's not evolving the GENRE. However, that doesn't look good on paper. Wild statements about how you've advanced everything looks good on paper.

[inm8#2]

I think this lengthy article posted at Adventure Gamers sums up the issue well. I encourage all to read it.

The key point to remember is that immersion is the end game, not gameplay, and puzzles are just an instrument. Who here overcomes every single obstacle with the exact same approach? Nobody, so why do we arbitrarily restrict ourselves in games? Makes no sense. Perhaps there are more puzzles that would fit naturally if developers stopped limiting themselves to a select few problem-solving variations. I'm a proponent of multiple solutions, but that's not what I'm suggesting here. I'm merely recommending that the options best suit each scenario, not a prescribed gameplay formula. Sometimes a situation demands outwitting an opponent, sometimes brute force and ignorance are called for (Zork Inquisitor's Brog says hi). The issue isn't so much a need to think outside the box, but just plain putting more damn puzzle approaches INTO the box to draw from.
-----
Ultimately, puzzles may be integral to the adventure experience, and that is still a good thing overall, but it doesn't mean that the mold is forever set. The who/what/when/where/why and how (and how often) such puzzles are implemented must best suit each story's design instead of following a particular pattern just to call itself an "adventure". It's this slavish devotion to the same old puzzle types where the genre is guiltiest of being stagnant, and as more and more games start to branch out and try new things (or old things in new ways), we should all support such developments wholeheartedly. Without such ambition, we'd have no Stacking or Ghost Trick or even Professor Layton. They may not all work, and we won't all like the results, but we should always embrace the creative attempt. The tried-and-true is here to stay, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying now. For a community so devoted to puzzles, why haven't we figured that out?

The best thing about today's AG scene is that there is so much diversity in the types of games made. I understand why people might be concerned by certain directions Telltale might be taking, but one has to ask if the stories they are telling require more complex puzzles. TWD was all about relationships and choices. Quite frankly, having more complex or involving puzzles would have hindered the pace of the game. If something has worked well for Telltale, and they want to explore that path of game design for telling certain types of stories, why not?

I think the adventure gaming community has been quite resistant to change because the genre was practically declared dead 13 or so years ago. It survived among a very dedicated group of passionate fans and developers, and now the genre is doing better than ever. I think that because we had to hold on so tightly to avoid losing our beloved genre completely, this made us more aversive to new directions. We've long clamored for the good old days of simple point and click.

And guess what? We still have the traditional point and click. Look at the multitude of recent games - especially those from Daedalic and Wadjet Eye. Plenty of worthy titles carrying the torch. In addition to those, we have games more focused on immersion and story-telling, or those more focused purely on puzzle solving. The point is, there is something for everyone. I support any developer's desire to try something new or incorporate small bits of other genres into adventure games. It doesn't mean the entire genre is changing, shifting, or losing focus of what makes an adventure. It means that the sphere of influence and range of opportunities for adventure games is expanding, but the core philosophy remains and is protected.

Some of the best recent adventures have been non-traditional adventures - Heavy Rain, TWD, LA Noire, Portal 1 & 2, etc. Were they the best puzzle games? Other than Portal, not really. But did they captivate players, engage them in the story, require them to make critical decisions, and provide a unique experience? Yes. And I think that above all adventure games are about the story. Puzzles should not define the story. Puzzles should be integrated depending on what the story entails.

I feel better than ever about adventures. We have companies like Telltale and Double Fine carving names for themselves. We have smaller developers doing amazing things, both in classical point and click or new types of game design. We have all the kickstarters. We have more people becoming interested in adventures.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that just because Telltale isn't designing games a certain way doesn't mean that nobody else is doing that.

[MtnPeak]

It is laughable to see representatives of Telltale arrogantly suggest that they are advancing or pioneering improvements in the adventure game genre, when really what they are doing is rejecting the fundamentals of what make adventure games unique. Telltale appears to now be interested in making QTE-based interactive movies. That's fine, but they should please not claim to be doing something that wasn't done 25 years ago. To be fair, Telltale (a developer which creates no original series, but instead piggybacks off existing, popular franchises) has successfully fine-tuned and made more accessible these kinds of interactive movies. But telltale is no pioneer like Sierra, or even LucasArts was.

It is almost as if Telltale representatives expect adventure game fans to thank them for moving away from the very game qualities that we love. Sorry, but Telltale is not the be-all end-all, and they certainly are not my preferred developer when it comes to adventure gaming.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

Jake, it's been a while since I've seen you (or anybody from Telltale, really) post on the forums. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I never said I hoped Telltale would do anything. Because I know they won't. You're doing what you want to do. That's great, really. More power to you. I mean that. I just don't feel you can call it adventure anymore because much of what was adventure has been all but removed. I mean, you're whole mantra now has basically been revealed to be "Forgo the puzzles, be more flashy with the story". I don't consider Adventure to be solely story. For that matter, I don't consider it solely puzzles either.

At the end of the day, more is being removed than is being added. It's just not advancement the way I see it. I'm not upset over this, I'm just disappointed. I know that Telltale's products hold no interest for me now and I'm fine with that. Some call what you've done advancement. I do not. It's just different and, in my eyes, more of a shallow incarnation than the evolution you're selling it to be. I'm not taking jabs, I'm just being honest.

I'm not trying to change Telltale or wish they were something they're not and never will be. I don't care specifically for the reason that, as you've said, there are plenty of other fish in the sea. Especially now with all these Kickstarters and successful indie games.

I think it comes down to the fact that I believe there is more going on in the Walking Dead than an interactive movie, or a choose your own adventure novel. I don't think it has simply removed the puzzles and concentrated on flashy story. I don't agree that more has been removed than added, but I think the focus is on a completely different place than it was before. I don't think that I would call what The Walking Dead does an advancement, either; I would call it doing something different. "Evolution," "advancement," and that sort of word all imply "the next step in a singular path" to me, which we all know is just not how reality works. If you look at a tree, over time new branches grow up and out and go in their own direction, and the higher up you go, it becomes increasingly difficult to even discern what the true "trunk" is anymore, but you can at least see what's closer to the center than other things. I think that's where we are at with adventure games and I'm happy to be off on a weird branch off in space somewhere.

Originally Posted by MtnPeak

Okay, so then TellTale will embrace the early 1980s with their interactive movies a la Dragon's Lair. Got it.

Welcome to the forums, I hope you stick around with that attitude!

Also I never said anything about the future. I was talking about the past, and the present. The puzzle based graphic adventure game, without question, had its popular heyday in the 1990s, which is (also without question) in the past. I have no idea what the future holds. That said, there are plenty of people making games of that kind right now, along with a variety of games more unique and varied -- yet still closer to the adventure game tree trunk of yore -- than most of the "action/adventure hybrid" future we were all being sold in the '00s. Sometimes even we make them, but just not lately. (And, according to this thread, even when we do, maybe this bunch in particular hate them anyway, which definitely raises the question of why spill the ink writing about it on our forums?)

This is not a question of past versus future, but rather a question of game design philosophy and what we enjoy and value in our adventure games.

I understand what you enjoy in adventure games... I do, too. I have played a lot of adventure games. Not every game is going to be that, I guess. I don't know what else to say?

Telltale has never made a particularly hard game, from a puzzle perspective, though Telltale has made a number of different games. I don't think Strong Bad, Tales of Monkey Island, Sam & Max Season 3, Puzzle Agent, or the Walking Dead share a ton of things in common except for the things that they all have in common with every other adventure game (walking around, picking things up, talking to people, and doing a series of developer-prescribed actions to advance the story), but none of them are particularly difficult or been known for their puzzles.

Would I like it if Telltale just stopped in its tracks and made a balls-to-the-wall retro adventure game Sam & Max puzzle fest, just once, to show that we can? Yeah, of course. That would be totally fun to make. I don't think it's likely to happen, nor do I think that the studio needs to for any real reason, both because people here are happy with the things we do make and the challenges we do choose to accept on the projects we do, and because there are plenty of other people making the crazy puzzle-first style of games that everyone loves.

Apparently I am rambling wildly. Sorry about that.

[thesporkman]

Originally Posted by Jake

Would I like it if Telltale just stopped in its tracks and made a balls-to-the-wall retro adventure game Sam & Max puzzle fest, just once, to show that we can? Yeah, of course. That would be totally fun to make. I don't think it's likely to happen

What about King's Quest?

[Secret Fawful]

I don't even think it's just Telltale I resent this anti-90s attitude from, though. It's moreso irritating and even angering because it's EVERYWHERE. To say that Telltale is pioneering that attitude isn't true. (Stahp MntPeak you hurt my brain)

They're just a product of it.

The faction of gamers today who say that puzzles need to go because they ruin adventure games aren't thinking it through. But good games get ripped to shreds for it. Sierra's games. Paper Mario: Sticker Star, one of the most interesting adventure game mechanics in years, is universally panned.

People say puzzles ruin pacing, as if adventure games are like movies. As if GAMES ARE LIKE MOVIES. They aren't.

The prevalence of this mindset, especially as a group thing that needs to be reinforced and enforced, leaves me stunned and unhappy with the state of things. I think my annoyance at that alone has kept me from even wanting to play The Walking Dead.

[WarpSpeed]

A lot of us with a "200" in our join date year came here in the first place because we're big adventure game fans. And we still are. We're hanging around because we're either hoping we see another good involved adventure game from Telltale some time in the future, or we enjoy interacting with others in the forums here.

So if you want to drive us away, the ways to do it would be:

1. Stop making games we consider "adventure."
2. Make the forums unusable.

Hmmmmmm....

[inm8#2]

It's not that puzzles ruin pacing, period. It's that certain games, the ways the stories are told, may not call for as many puzzles or deeper levels of puzzling.

Each game, each story, is different. And I guess it's up to the developer to decide how puzzles fit in, and that usually derives from the story.

I'm as passionate about hardcore adventuring as anyone, and a year or two ago I probably could have posted the OP. But I've warmed up to things and realized that maybe new ventures can be good in the long run.

If Telltale were the only adventure developer in the world, then I'd be really concerned. But they're not. They're one of many developers. And all these developers have different design and story philosophies.

I do agree that it comes down to Telltale's supporters to provide feedback on what kind of game they want to see made. But Telltale has to balance that with what has been successful commercially. I think it's a tough position for them, to keep old fans interested but also attract new ones.

The good news is that there are many developers making the kinds of games to which people are referencing in this thread. If you want to keep those alive, consider supporting them.

[lattsam]

Originally Posted by Jake

Would I like it if Telltale just stopped in its tracks and made a balls-to-the-wall retro adventure game Sam & Max puzzle fest, just once, to show that we can?

Actually, that doesn't sound like a bad idea!

[ryannumber1gamer]

Originally Posted by WarpSpeed

A lot of us with a "200" in our join date year came here in the first place because we're big adventure game fans.

Now being fair here that. I don't think that's correct for everyone. There is people who only got introduced to the recently. For example, i almost never played Adventure Games until Wallace & Gromit came out which i was a big fan of the shorts and movie. So i got it and i enjoyed it a lot. Then one of my favorite reviewers said Sam & Max was a good game. Fair enough i didn't play any Sam & Max games until i got a PS3 and tried a demo of Sam & Max Season 3. I enjoyed the characters, and the comedy and i got the full game. Then i seen Tales of Monkey Island and it was made by Telltale who made Sam & Max season 3 which i really enjoyed so i got the demo of Tales of Monkey Island and i enjoyed that too.That's how i got into Adventure games anyway.

[Alcoremortis]

This thread, it's almost comical. I could practically make a rage comic out of it. It would probably go something like this:

Panel 1:
Fans: Y no TTG employees on the forum?!!!!! Telltale was so much better when the employees posted more!

Panel 2:
Telltale Employee: Hello, everyone! I'm here to answer all of your questions in a polite way that is also clear!
Fans: RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEE!

Panel 3:
Fans: Y no TTG employees on the forum?!!!!!

[Secret Fawful]

Man, such a zoo in here. So much anger.

For one thing, I can't take someone named ryannumber1gamer seriously, and neither can anyone else. Second, I appreciate Jake actually trying to talk to us.

But talking BACK is falling on dead ears, okay, guys. Stop with the expectations. Stop with the complaints. They don't get through. The angrier you get, the less you're going to accomplish. Also nobody is going to listen to me because I'm just a troll and a nutcase, durr durr durr. But they can't shut me up!

Cause I'm not afraid to do the Lord's work.
He say vengeance is his but I'mma do it first.

Originally Posted by Alcoremortis

This thread, it's almost comical. I could practically make a rage comic out of it. It would probably go something like this:

Panel 1:
Fans: Y no TTG employees on the forum?!!!!! Telltale was so much better when the employees posted more!

Panel 2:
Telltale Employee: Hello, everyone! I'm here to answer all of your questions in a polite way that is also clear!
Fans: RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEE!

Panel 3:
Fans: Y no TTG employees on the forum?!!!!!

I mean, are we fans? No no no. We're a chemical mixture that makes chaos.

We're.....we're Indian food.

EDIT: And seriously, ryan, get a new name. I hate numbers and words that slur together in names. It's UGLY.

[MtnPeak]

Secret Fawful, if adventure gamers want to express their concerns about Telltale's abandonment of adventure gaming fundamentals, then that's their right. Not sure it's your place to tell anyone here what to say or not say. Don't see the point in mocking people who are not fans of the direction in which Telltale is going. We love adventure games and want to make our voices heard.

Anyway, if Jake isn't interested in hearing what adventure game fans want, then maybe he shouldn't read these forums. I hope he does participate often, though. Neither encouraged nor impressed by his comments here, though.

[lattsam]

Originally Posted by Giant Tope

Did you just stop reading his post after that sentence?

No, I didn't, but I felt that it was an idea that shouldn't be ignored is all.

[Giant Tope]

Originally Posted by MtnPeak

Secret Fawful, if adventure gamers want to express their concerns about Telltale's abandonment of adventure gaming fundamentals, then that's their right. Not sure it's your place to tell anyone here what to say or not say. Don't see the point in mocking people who are not fans of the direction in which Telltale is going. We love adventure games and want to make our voices heard.

Anyway, if Jake isn't interested in hearing what adventure game fans want, then maybe he shouldn't read these forums. I hope he does participate often, though. Neither encouraged nor impressed by his comments here, though.

The Telltale forums is for fans of Telltale games, not necessarily classic adventure games. I think there are some forums out there that focus more on those sorts of games. While I understand the frustration of Telltale moving away from more puzzle based games, you have to understand there is a huge market for those wanting more of these cinematic games that is honestly pretty uncommon elsewhere.

Originally Posted by lattsam

Actually, that doesn't sound like a bad idea!

Did you just stop reading his post after that sentence?

[Secret Fawful]

Originally Posted by MtnPeak

Secret Fawful, if adventure gamers want to express their concerns about Telltale's abandonment of adventure gaming fundamentals, then that's their right. Not sure it's your place to tell anyone here what to say or not say. Don't see the point in mocking people who are not fans of the direction in which Telltale is going. We love adventure games and want to make our voices heard.

Anyway, if Jake isn't interested in hearing what adventure game fans want, then maybe he shouldn't read these forums. I hope he does participate often, though. Neither encouraged nor impressed by his comments here, though.

I've been following Telltale since they started, and maybe you have to. But from what I've seen, they've always decided on a direction and stuck with it so steadfastly that any different idea or any dissatisfaction is met with solid rebuttal and absolutely no change in their decisions.

So at this point, I think actually expecting them to listen or change is futile and I've never seen any evidence of it. And honestly, Jake said he's happy. And I believe in the happiness of the developer before the happiness of the fans, even IF I DO NOT agree with their design philosophy or company direction.

Everybody constantly trying to get somewhere with them at this point is just a joke to me. It's never happened, and it's not going to happen. They've tried pleasing us in the past anyway, and there's no real end to our wants. The amount of bitching the fans have done has killed any real progress solid debate and conversation could have.

And how could they not be happy. Telltale broke expectations and have more critical success than they know what to do with. Individually, these guys can feel like a success, and we can't take that away from them. It also means that expecting them to cater to us is pretty silly at this point. It's over. That's all OVER. It's been over for a long time.

[Giant Tope]

DOE WANT POINT AND CLICK BACK GOD I HATE YOU TELLTALE