Telltale and Puzzles: A Rant.

[lattsam]

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

I've been following Telltale since they started, and maybe you have to. But from what I've seen, they've always decided on a direction and stuck with it so steadfastly that any different idea or any dissatisfaction is met with solid rebuttal and absolutely no change in their decisions.

So at this point, I think actually expecting them to listen or change is futile and I've never seen any evidence of it. And honestly, Jake said he's happy. And I believe in the happiness of the developer before the happiness of the fans, even IF I DO NOT agree with their design philosophy or company direction.

Everybody constantly trying to get somewhere with them at this point is just a joke to me. It's never happened, and it's not going to happen. They've tried pleasing us in the past anyway, and there's no real end to our wants. The amount of bitching the fans have done has killed any real progress solid debate and conversation could have.

And how could they not be happy. Telltale broke expectations and have more critical success than they know what to do with. Individually, these guys can feel like a success, and we can't take that away from them. It also means that expecting them to cater to us is pretty silly at this point. It's over. That's all OVER. It's been over for a long time.

That's precisely what I was thinking.

[Blind Sniper]

Even though I chimed in earlier before Jake posted, I just wanted to say that unlike several people here that I don't necessarily resent Telltale nor am I trying to whine. I think that they are very skilled in what they do and most of their choices that are critically panned are deliberate (removing puzzles, focus on story over gameplay, etc). As I said earlier, it's just that even though story is important to Telltale, it should not be considered a main gameplay point no matter how good it is. Similarly to what RAnthonyMahan said, I'm also just expressing my views because I am concerned about how Telltale is portraying their future game releases and design philosophy amongst the success of the Walking Dead, and how they are applying what worked in one game into other games which may not work as effectively.

I think that Telltale needs to learn to adapt multiple audiences not only from a perspective of franchise choice, but also from gameplay choice. Why not use what you have learned from the best of both worlds? Why can't Sam and Max/Monkey Island/Strong Bad/etc coexist along Walking Dead and Telltale's future endeavors? Coming from a fan of the long story over the season as opposed to Telltale's past method of self contained episodes, why can't both coexist based on the franchise?

I still like Telltale, and as long as they don't move entirely to Jurassic Park/Waling Dead type games (even though I liked Walking Dead), they will still have me as a fan. Like I said in my first post, Telltale just needs to accept that casual/mainstream gamers will not know immediately how to apply abstract point and click adventure logic to games, but that does not mean that Telltale can't take what works best with adventure gameplay, apply a twist that not only works with the franchise but also is understandable to its fans without being patronizingly easy, and remove what doesn't work from point and click adventure games from that particular license? I feel that Telltale would be in a better place if they did so for several reasons. Casual gamers would understand the game logic better, puzzles would be able to have higher difficulty and still be fun without driving players away, and adventure gamers would not feel like they get the short end of the stick. This doesn't guarantee that Telltale would increase difficulty nowadays, but I think that they were driven to this point in the first place from Wallace and Gromit's low sales and the high success of Back to the Future and The Walking Dead with their extremely easy puzzles.

I'm grateful that a Telltale member talked to us, and I don't intend to lynch him for expressing his views. I would ideally like to give feedback in an environment that he would be able to talk to us and there would be no insulting each other, but I don't suppose we will be getting that.

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by thesporkman

What about King's Quest?

Not happening.

[MusicallyInspired]

I made a gigantic (and I mean gigantic!) post and the forums ate it when I went to preview it. Dang. It was so well detailed and explained everything. I took the past 75 minutes or so writing it. It replied to many of Jake's points in thoughtful ways (I'd like to think), told the story of my perspective of Telltale in the passed 7 years, and it ended on a content and peaceful note of revelation on my part, all of which this meager (but probably much more readable) post could never do justice.

Basically, I realized that Telltale Games are in the gaming business for telling tales. That's it. And as much as they've used the term "adventure" over and over, they're definition of adventure was never mine. Ever. I thought that when Sam & Max season one first came out that it would get better over time. Ease people back into adventures again. But instead it went in the other direction. Whatever. That's what's popular now, apparently. I accept that. While you, Jake, call the whole tree "adventure" with its many branches and offshoots, I call only the trunk. It's this miscommunication and different perspective of the word that has led to my frustrations over the passed 7 years of my being a Telltale fan. They've gone continually downhill over time and I couldn't understand why. Now I know they will never be what I always wanted them to be.

With that, I'll hang around here until the new forums and website are up and then I'll probably wander off in search of another community of adventurers who share my perspective on the definition. Not in a malicious or resentful way, it's just that what I'm looking for is just not here. You'll get no more rants from me. Peace.

[Darth Marsden]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

I made a gigantic (and I mean gigantic!) post and the forums ate it when I went to preview it. Dang. It was so well detailed and explained everything. I took the past 75 minutes or so writing it.

Damn. Hate when stuff like that happens. If your response is that big, make sure you copy it in future before hitting post, especially if it's in a popular thread.

I like old Telltale games, and I understand that they're going in a different direction with their newer ones, but that doesn't mean I have to play them. I just hope their future games are a return to the older style they did. There's nothing stopping them, after all, from having different gameplay styles for different titles.

If they do King's Quest (a little info on that to say if you still are would be nice, TT!), I think everyone would be up in arms if it weren't traditional point and click, for example. But that doesn't mean ALL their games have to play in exactly the same way.

It's about matching gameplay with subject matter. QTEs and character moments worked well for TWD, and possibly Fables, but I guess we'll have to see what they have in store before we make definitive comments.

[ryannumber1gamer]

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

For one thing, I can't take someone named ryannumber1gamer seriously, and neither can anyone else. Second, I appreciate Jake actually trying to talk to us.

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

EDIT: And seriously, ryan, get a new name. I hate numbers and words that slur together in names. It's UGLY.

What exactly does this have to do with this thread?

[MtnPeak]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

I made a gigantic (and I mean gigantic!) post and the forums ate it when I went to preview it. Dang. It was so well detailed and explained everything. I took the past 75 minutes or so writing it. It replied to many of Jake's points in thoughtful ways (I'd like to think), told the story of my perspective of Telltale in the passed 7 years, and it ended on a content and peaceful note of revelation on my part, all of which this meager (but probably much more readable) post could never do justice.

I am sorry your post got deleted. You always take the time to write very thoughtful comments, and you definitely know your stuff. I would have liked to have read your comment. Don't let people accuse you of "whining" or "being resentful" when you express your opinion about what you enjoy about adventure games. Say it proud! Using mocking, loaded language like "whining" is just a way to dismiss opposing opinions and to characterize them as not worth taking seriously. It was clear you weren't asking Telltale for anything, but were rather simply expressing your unhappiness about their non-adventure game direction and their attempts to portray their lessened focus on puzzles as a so-called "evolution" of the genre, when it is really an abandonment of adventure games.

I know that, when I express my own thoughts about the newer Telltale games, I am not asking Telltale for anything. Goodness knows they are terrible about interacting with customers and adventure game fans on these forums, anyway. The only thing I want is for Telltale to lose the KQ license, if they haven't already. This is not out of malice. I wish them the best, but I also wish Activison would let another developer that actually loves and is passionate about adventure games create a new KQ.

What exactly does this have to do with this thread?

Good question. That one said its brain hurt when it had to read someone disagreeing with a Telltale rep, so I am not surprised to see those other comments.

[royschreiber]

Originally Posted by Blind Sniper

I think that Telltale needs to learn to adapt multiple audiences not only from a perspective of franchise choice, but also from gameplay choice. Why not use what you have learned from the best of both worlds? Why can't Sam and Max/Monkey Island/Strong Bad/etc coexist along Walking Dead and Telltale's future endeavors? Coming from a fan of the long story over the season as opposed to Telltale's past method of self contained episodes, why can't both coexist based on the franchise?

I agree, there is no reason Telltale should stick to only one type of games. I have no objection to other games being made, I just want some new point and click adventures... with puzzles and all.
The reason people are asking this from you should be obvious - you made some fantastic adventure games including Tales of Monkey Island (which is maybe the best of all) and Sam and Max (all 3 seasons, although I personally like seasons 1 and 2 better). All we ask is for more of the stuff we love, more of your great games (in other words - I want to be able to throw my money at you).
From lurking in these forums for a long time it seems that I am not the only one who wants this, nor are we a minority. A game once a year would be great (and of course not restricting to a specific title, variety is a good thing though I would love to see Tales 2 with all the difficulties involved in getting permission).

[WarpSpeed]

Originally Posted by Alcoremortis

This thread, it's almost comical. I could practically make a rage comic out of it. It would probably go something like this:

Panel 1:
Fans: Y no TTG employees on the forum?!!!!! Telltale was so much better when the employees posted more!

Panel 2:
Telltale Employee: Hello, everyone! I'm here to answer all of your questions in a polite way that is also clear!
Fans: RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEE!

Panel 3:
Fans: Y no TTG employees on the forum?!!!!!

The opportunity to read posts like the one Alcoremortis made above is one of the reasons why I stick around here.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be hateful, and I know I can get adventure games elsewhere, sometimes even for free. I'm just saying that Telltale has been moving away from the games that appeal to me, and more toward easier games aimed at a mass market crowd, because that's where the money is.

LucasArts tried that, moving away from their awesome point-and-click adventures and more into Star Wars shooter things, and look where they wound up. Their founder walked away with four billion dollars.

Wait, what point was I trying to make again?

[Alcoremortis]

Originally Posted by WarpSpeed

The opportunity to read posts like the one Alcoremortis made above is one of the reasons why I stick around here.

And now I'm blushing! Obviously, the solution is more rage.

[Vainamoinen]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

And that, by its very nature, clashes completely with the very definition of the word "adventure", which is all about discovery, exploration, and experimentation.
[...]
I think people confuse the term "adventure" with the genre "Adventure".

I think you just did.

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

I don't believe it's possible to "evolve" adventures because any "evolution" would turn them into something they're inherently not.

A process previously not known in evolution, I assume.

Originally Posted by Jake

I don't think anyone would ever say the Walking Dead was trying to touch the space '90s adventure games occupy, but I still personally consider it an adventure game. I might have a wider definition than other people, but I don't know what I can do about that.

I completely agree and I do think of TWD as an adventure game. Maybe even an exemplary one. Fact is, everyone has her/his own definition of the genre. There's no fixed definition. A person might define adventure games as "those games I like", then rule out TWD by that definition alone. The adventure genre was never defined by "puzzles" in the same way the RPG is defined by character stats.

The discussion whether TWD was an "adventure" or not is completely fruitless. I wish people would instead focus on what they liked or didn't like about Telltale's last game.

Originally Posted by Jake

I think it comes down to the fact that I believe there is more going on in the Walking Dead than an interactive movie, or a choose your own adventure novel. I don't think it has simply removed the puzzles and concentrated on flashy story.

And again, I completely agree. The "just not an adventure game anymore" standpoint impairs the community's ability to actively communicate pro's and con's of Telltale's last game to an absurd degree. I believe TWD tried to shift the interaction of the player to human relationships and, if you'd like to interpret it that way, aims to deliver a "psychological puzzle" for the player. Although I can still not relate at all to the franchise, the basic idea kept me going after episode one. The mechanics and their complexity, however, haven't even remotely played out to my satisfaction.

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

People say puzzles ruin pacing, as if adventure games are like movies. As if GAMES ARE LIKE MOVIES. They aren't.

Thanks for real arguments, Fawful. We really needed them here. How about a few more?

I do think the feeling of control and choice, of the player's own pace, is fundamentally important for the level of immersion. There might be sequences where things are moving fast, but on the whole, I'm not too interested in a game where I'm surprised and even bored by sudden breaks in the narrative.

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

I don't believe it's possible to "evolve" adventures because any "evolution" would turn them into something they're inherently not.

Video game genres always evolve, and adventures have evolved quite a bit since the first Adventure that was released in 1976/1977. They went from text to static graphics with Mystery House, then to full graphics with direct control characters and text parsers with King's Quest, to full mouse control with Deja Vu and Maniac Mansion. Maniac Mansion already got rid of at least one of Adventure's standard features - points. So, it wasn't just a cosmetic change, but a gameplay change too.

Games like Beyond Zork and Quest for Glory melded gameplay styles from other genres (and it's not out of place since the original Adventure itself already did this as it had fighting).

Games like Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade brought in the dialog tree which would later become a common staple. Then came The Secret of Monkey Island which instituted the rule most of LucasArts' adventures followed from then on - not being able to die and no dead ends.

Games like Grim Fandango and The Longest Journey brought the genre into the third dimension with 3D characters on pre-rendered backgrounds.

Then games like Telltale's early adventures (from Out from Boneville to Strong Bad's Cool Game for Attractive People) brought a point and click interface to a full 3D engine (with 3D characters and 3D backgrounds), and games like Wallace & Gromit's Grand Adventures and Tales of Monkey Island brought a direct control (and/or mouse control) option to the characters.

The Walking Dead streamlined the inventory and dialog system by putting both options into the same interface.

And The Cave streamlined it even more by having the inventory system consist of only one item at a time per character.

All of these games have two things in common: an inventory a story (thanks MusicallyInspired for the correction ) and puzzles to solve (it doesn't matter how hard the puzzles are, just that they're there [difficulty doesn't matter when defining genres, that distinction falls upon sub-genres]). That's really the basis of what makes a game an adventure, since the genre's slowly evolved over the last (almost) 40 years and those are the only constant.

[Vainamoinen]

Originally Posted by Jennifer

All of these games have two things in common: an inventory and puzzles to solve. That's really the basis of what makes a game an adventure.

Please don't do that.

[RAnthonyMahan]

It's interesting that you bring up The Cave, Jennifer, since it makes a good example of what I mean about experimentation.

Point-and-click adventures, for the most part, are very restrictive to the player when compared to other genres. Ron Gilbert wondered if there was a different way to do it, so he decided to make an adventure game with a more engaging control scheme. And so we got The Cave, a platformer/point-and-click hybrid.

Personally, while I liked The Cave's writing, and the puzzles were (mostly) decent, the backtracking was pretty frustrating and I found myself spending a lot of time thinking it would be better as a normal point-and-click adventure. Still, it shows off the idea of experimenting ways to do things differently. Look closely at what you have already. Find something you don't like. If you got rid of X and did Y instead, would it be better? If not, why not? If you improved on Y's problems and did Z, would it be better than X? You get the idea.

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by Vainamoinen

Please don't do that.

It's true, puzzles and inventory are the fundamentals for the adventure genre (oh, I think I see what you mean by that comment, yeah the puzzles don't have to be hard, they just have to be there. Difficulty doesn't matter when defining genres, that distinction would fall to the sub-genres). There are many sub-genres of adventures (which I think is what people are getting confused about). In fact, there are tons of them (way too many sub-genres/combinations to list). Even just breaking it down to point-and-click and text adventures wouldn't work, as there's tons of sub-genres beyond that too.

I actually find the amount of diversity in the adventure genre quite fascinating (and not surprising considering it has a history almost as old as the personal computer itself).

[Secret Fawful]

Originally Posted by Vainamoinen

Thanks for real arguments, Fawful. We really needed them here. How about a few more?

Are you being sarcastic, or an asshole. I've made some pretty in-depth arguments, or are you just ignoring them because it's Fawful durr durr durr he's an idiot. If you think that what I'm really trying to do in here is throw shit around and cause trouble, ultimately, then remove my motherfucking profile. Remove me from the fucking forum. Because I don't care at this point. I have my opinion set, and it's based on common sense. I'm fighting for the ability to hold a fucking normal conversation around here for once. Because I'd love that. I'd love to sit around and not throw the blame, or single people out. But since everyone else wants to do it, I can't very well do that.

Originally Posted by MtnPeak

Good question. That one said its brain hurt when it had to read someone disagreeing with a Telltale rep, so I am not surprised to see those other comments.

You make my brain hurt because your posts are angry and venomous and make real discussion impossible. I said I don't agree with Telltale multiple times, but your head can't contemplate that someone might not have such a black and white view of things. Now I'm angry and venomous. Thanks for spreading your disgusting disease.

[MusicallyInspired]

Jennifer, you pretty much made my point for me. Except, what I had said was that adventures are made up of puzzles and story, not inventory. They were both always ALWAYS the focus and always the constant. All through the years from text adventures all the way down to the 3D P&C's (as lite as they are). Now Telltale are saying that they're doing something much more drastic than ever was done before. They're trying to shift the focus off of puzzles entirely and point it directly to story alone. I just don't agree with this view. Maybe it doesn't matter to others whether the puzzles are difficult or not, but it does to me. Like I said in my second post, I realize that what Telltale does is just not what I'm looking for. And I'm happy to leave it at that. I want a gaming experience that focuses on puzzles just as much as story. My definition of adventure doesn't fit with theirs, or many others here either it seems. And that's ok. I will move on. Whatever this new form of puzzle-less "adventure" is, I don't like it and I want no part of it.

Man, I really wish that ginormous post I had made had not been eaten by Mr. V. Bulletin.

[corruptbiggins]

Your definition isn't the be all and end all you know. And calling them "adventure" games like that is just plain insulting. Like if someone described what you do as "work". It is possible for one thing to mean many things without each harming the other in anyway. If all you're looking for is hard puzzles then it's a wonder you've ever been happy here as that is something Telltale have never really done.

Games like Back to the Future & Jurassic Park have been lambasted on this site, rightly or wrongly, but the end result of those games has been the Walking Dead which has been a huge success however you describe it. It shows the ability to learn from mistakes and how Telltale are making a name for themselves for doing what they are good at and that success shouldn't belittled. Fine you're not a fan of this path but don't act like it's new nor should you attempt to shame them for enjoying the successes of their design philosophy.

[Secret Fawful]

Weeeeeeee! Keep throwing the blame around! Keep insulting each other's opinions! That's right! Let's all do it! I'll do it! You'll do it! Let's all do it, like the sheep that we all are.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Nobody is valid! Only I am valid! I'm not valid! Only you are valid! Don't do this! Don't do that!

God, I'm a tool by doing it! I'm a tool for trying to argue, and I didn't even realize it. This isn't how things should work, but HELL if I've got a better solution. Maybe reasonable conversation is impossible. Let's change it to arguments! Let's get mad at each other! Let's get paranoid and take everything personally! I'll go first! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Baaa! Baaaa! I'll be the black sheep! AHAHAHAHA!

Intelligent discussion doesn't exist! We're all apes! Pierre Boulle was right!

EDIT: I don't think anyone is really a sheep, I'm just exhausted by this whole thing and also the fact I'm handicapped by being me.

[OzzieMonkey]

Wow, there are some strong opinions here. I'll try to be as brief as possible with mine.
Let me start by saying that I love Telltale Games, it's one of my favourite developers. While initially I became interested in their products because they were the traditional point and click, I also believe that change can be a good thing, especially where narrative-driven games like theirs is concerned. I think that as long as they make the puzzle structure and the gameplay style fit whatever atmosphere they are trying to convey, they will be enjoyable and interesting games. Monkey Island/Sam & Max need the thinking-out-of-the-box puzzles to convey the level of humor that is expected of them, whereas The Waking Dead meshes well with the more streamlined interface equipped with quick decision-making. As long as Telltale manages to find the right fit for different IPs, their games will be of good quality, and so far they haven't disappointed me.

P.S. I should also mention that I respect the opinions of anyone on this forum, and I don't consider anyone who doesn't share my opinion or those of whatever the norm is to be a "sheep" that's just silly. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I admire those who state theirs in the face of possible backlash, I have no need to light any torches or arm myself with a pitchfork