Killing off **** was a bad idea

[StanleyStutters]

Originally Posted by gimmeseason2

Leaving Lee alive or saving him would not have made the game(season 1) as memorable and heartbreaking as it was in my opinion . But I guess many other people may see this in a different way.

That's true, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was the best decision for the series going forward. TTG may have sacrificed some of the long term quality of the story in favor of a shocking death in S1. They could have killed Lee in any season and it would have been just as shocking, memorable, and heartbreaking.

Obviously, we won't know if this was a good decision or not until season 2 and we see what new characters/story TTG is able to create. I'm confident in their ability to bring us another excellent story, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little worried that they won't be able to recreate the success from S1.

[Rommel49]

Originally Posted by Jennifer

Lee wouldn't survive in either situation. He had his arm cut off too late. The people who lived in The Walking Dead television show and comics had their infected areas cut off immediately. At least half an hour passed before Lee had his cut off. The zombie bacteria already got into his bloodstream by that point.

Basically this. There's not even an option to amputate until after Lee passes out the first time in the Morgue at the start of Episode 5. Anything he did after that was just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, it was already too late.

Originally Posted by StanleyStutters

That's true, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was the best decision for the series going forward. TTG may have sacrificed some of the long term quality of the story in favor of a shocking death in S1. They could have killed Lee in any season and it would have been just as shocking, memorable, and heartbreaking.

Obviously, we won't know if this was a good decision or not until season 2 and we see what new characters/story TTG is able to create. I'm confident in their ability to bring us another excellent story, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little worried that they won't be able to recreate the success from S1.

In my view, I'm not even sure it would've made the season less memorable if Lee had survived. Killing off the Protagonist is hardly new. Quite a few games have been doing that over the past few years (hell, the protagonist dies in the very first known story written in the English language). As has also been said, part of the problem is that Lee was effectively killed in Episode 4; which for me just further blunted the impact of his inevitable death in Episode 5 because it was basically drawn out over the course of weeks.

[Rambo297]

Yeah, in my opinion TWD would be same memorable with or without Lee... It was great game, and i think leaving him alive and try with another group of surviors could be same or even better, than that one.

[Jeenyus]

Originally Posted by corruptbiggins

It won't be the same story, it'll be someone else's story. And that's a good thing.

But it is the same story. You're just a new character amongst the old. Basically you'll be some random Joe and eventually Clementine will show up, possibly Christa and Omid. So its like, sweet, I'm some other guy, but I pretty much know everything about those characters. How riveting.

My opinion is they shouldn't continue on sans, Lee. Just start an entirely new cast.

[BenIsKindaCool]

Originally Posted by Riadon

...and become depressed for a month.

FOR A MONTH?!?ONLY?!? ...Well I'm glad someone feels better
I'm still sad,but I guess it's just me..

[Cherish]

I say they should of kept Lee...It was a big piss off killing him off like that....Now I dont trust anybody other than lee around Clementine -.- Besides, I was kind of hoping that Lee would be around in the future episodes.. I really dont think that Clementine will be in good hands with Cristina & Omid (forgive me if I spelled their names wong.)

I mean when you think about it, Omid could barely stand on that broken leg when they had to flee from the walkers. Honesly, I thought Omid was gonna die the whole time while he was laying in the bed with Cristina by his side...(unless they make him have a full recovery...I dont think Omid would make it..and if he did, he wouldnt be able to go far...and Cristina...well...I figured that either she would end up like Lilly and lose her mind...or end up getting eatten by walkers, sooner or later.)

[TealBlue]

Quick question, since we know that in stories anything can happen, which is sorta good, but also sorta bad too, anyway, what if that scene where Lee and Clementine go to sleep and Lee is mad at her for talking to someone else on the walkie talkie... well... what if everything that happened after that, was a dream?

Or, you could even have it all happen right after Shawn drives them up to the farm, what if Lee fell asleep in the truck and the second season picks up from him waking up in the truck when they arrive at the farm?

I guess what i'm saying is what if each season, was a different play through of season 1?

Or would you mind the second season starting with your character being Kenny or Katja and playing through the same scenario's but from the new character point of view. Seeing how they made decisions about other things, but also their decisions about Clementine?

I mean, maybe people will scream and yell, or think it a cheap shot or not, but really in stories anything is possible, and it might be interesting to play another character, maybe especially a familiar character and know that Duck and Katja and Kenny and Lee and the others are still alive. The second season could end, exactly like the first, well... and season three could push us into what happens with Clementine.

Or we could flip back and do prequels, what i mean is play Clementine's family just before they leave for Savannah, or Lee and his wife, before he killed the man he found with his wife, or as Kenny and Katja and Duck, or as Merle and Shawn before all goes to heck in a handbasket.

Cheap shot? Or worth the risk and fun? And the familiarity? And having them alive again?

Oh, and what would you think if the ending to this 'replay' was different and people that died in the first season didn't die in the second with the 're-telling'?

Just some crazy ideas,

-TealBlue

[aerial-ballet]

Originally Posted by Rommel49

... and I'm positive I couldn't have been the only one that knew what was going to happen when they saw that pile near the walkie-talkie at the end of Episode 4.

I had a feeling that a walker would jump out of there, but Lee getting bitten? I definitely did not see that part coming.

And yeah, Lee's death is sad. But I can accept it. He's gone, and I'm excited to see who you play as in Season 2.

That being said, if they ever did bring Lee back, (even in some convoluted dream-sequence kind of way), let's just say I wouldn't mind having him back.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by montesinos7

Listen people. Killing off Lee was a good idea. But either do it, and don't have a season 2, or make him survive then kill him off then. Don't kill of the characters that everyone gets attached to then make another game, because I will never be attached in the same way.

I agree.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Jaded X Gamer

Why do people keep saying they couldn't possibly get as attached to new characters as they were to the ones in the first season when you've only known the characters from the first season for just one game?

I mean, Lee was character created just for this game. He hadn't appeared anywhere else is any of series or part of The Walking Dead. He was a new character, Telltale crafted a great story that made you care about him and now his story is finished.

What makes you think they won't be able to do it again with new characters?

Yeah his story has finished but if Clementine's story continues his absence will feel strange. Could Clementine realistically bond with a new character the way she did with Lee? Time will tell but I find it unlikely.

It will be fine if season 2 is centered around new characters but if Clementine's story continues it will probably feel weird because she is associated with Lee and he with her. They were a duo. In most of the game's advertising posters the two were together and the story was depicted as focusing on their relationship in the ZA, having one with out the other is like having a ratchet and clank game without Ratchet. Yeah they exist but they're fucking weird.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by gimmeseason2

You're kidding about killing Clementine off right? The entire game was basically ABOUT protecting Clementine.. And I think they made the right move with killing Lee because I think that giving his life to protect Clem "redeems" him from that murder he committed prior to the zombie apocalypse. It's like Kenny. He felt like he wasn't the dad that he could have been to Duck or the husband he couldn't be to Katjaa, so he felt like he needed to sacrifice his life so that Ben didn't have to suffer. If you think about it and really go in depth with it, you would know that Lee's death was one of the most brilliant moves that TellTale did in this game. I know it sucks that Lee died and I used to be in denial too, but I learned to accept the fact that he will most likely not be coming back.

Regarding Kenny sacrificing his life so Ben didn't suffer, that was so unnecessary. He could have shot Ben from the safety of the door way that Lee was standing in. He had ample time to shoot Ben and even run back to the door that he closed on Lee. In fact that whole sequence was bollocks considering Lee was already bitten and had nothing to loose. Realistically Lee could have locked Kenny away from the walkers since he hadn't been bitten. Kenny's actions were a pointless waste of life, contradicting his speech about suicide being wasteful.

As for Lee dying, that was fine for me but I feel he should have died at the end of the story and not midway, assuming Clementine's story continues into season 2 as I suspect, failing that he should have at least been able to finish his mission in season 1. What was his mission one might ask. It was to rescue Clementine and reunite her with Omid and Christa so he died knowing she was in safe hands. That was the last plan he made with Christa. He died not knowing Clementine's fate and probably died feeling that he failed in protecting her. Of course he had to give her a prep talk about her being ready and strong to give her courage but him dying before he got Clementine to safety is like a marathon runner collapsing before the finish line from exhaustion and not completing the race. Considering that the protagonist and the player had the same objective I couldn't help feeling I failed when I completed the game. It reminds me of the scene in vanishing on 7th street were the protagonist dies trying to save the boy and the boy goes off into the sunset on horse back at the end of the movie towards the place the protagonist was planning to take him.

Even David Fennoy said he felt it was a bad idea for Telltale to kill of Lee before the stories ending when he learned their plans whilst making episode 3. I'm in agreement with him on that one. Lee could have had that same touching, emotional moment with Clementine if he had died at the end of season 2. In fact his death would have been even more emotional for us because we would have been controlling him longer. Killing him early just added shock value because it is something that probably has never been done before(for good reason)

Season 2 can still potentially be very good but Telltale have made more work for themselves and will probably have to gamble far more than they would have if Lee was in the second season. Will people take to the new protagonist? It could go either way. So there is a gamble there. For me, I know I didn't take to Omid and Christa when they were introduced after the loss of Katjaa, Carly and Lilly who I actually liked and I can't say that I warmed to them by the end of episode 5 either. I wouldn't feel the same loss I felt when Kat and Carly died if I learned in season 2 that the people on the hill were not Omid and Christa and Omid and Christa were never seen again. Simply because I didn't think those character were as good in spite of them having the same amount of episodes as the original group members. The only character I am looking forward to seeing is Clementine since I didn't really like the remaining cast of episode 5. Christa was cagey and Omid's humour seemed out of place in light of what was going on making him a less believable character, for me. Chuck was realistic and suited that world more but he was a "red shirt" from the mother "fuckin gidde up."

[dee23]

Originally Posted by BlackBoxx

It seems to me that your issue is playing the same role with a different character. Basically, you don't want a rehash of season one. I agree with that, but disagree with your conclusion (that killing Lee was a bad move). It seems to me that you just need a new role. How about you no longer play Clementine's guardian in season 2? After all, Lee prepared her to deal with the hardships of the new world. She doesn't need that kind of protection anymore. She can be a full group member now; able to have her own input on things, her own ideas for problem solving, her own disagreements, her own job when things go south, etc.

At 9 years old I doubt it. I think Clementine will still be viewed as a child if she joins a new group. In the comics a 9 year old Carl has single-handedly sneaked into the fortress of the most dangerous villain in walking dead history and murdered several of his men but i'm pretty sure Rick will still want him to stay at home with a baby sitter in future issues to ensure his safety when the adults go out on supply runs or face off against new threats. He is still a kid after all. I can't see us playing as Clementine in season 2 since time can't advance that much because the game is meant to be canon to the comics.

In terms of Clementine's lessons, I don't think Lee has prepared her fully for life in the new world. She is only 9 and still has much to learn. What he did was teach her how to deal with loss and how to use a gun. Clementine is not going to live on her own like Michonne or Daryl Dixon. She is still very vulnerable. In this world there are pedophile's, rapists and cannibals. Her best chance of survival is to find a safe group of survivors who can protect her. If she features in season 2 I think her role in the group would be the same as it was in season 1 but her outlook would be less innocent. Her reaction to events would be different because of her experiences. Where she was once naive and full of hope she will now probably be a hardened and more serious version of how she was in season 1 with a less optimistic out look.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by AnekiGX

I thought it was brilliant that they killed off Lee.

He had always protected Clementine and at the end of it, was practically given a death sentence and forced to let her go. When Lee got bitten, I felt his anguish. Part of it was because he was going to die, but the biggest reason was because he could no longer protect Clementine to personally ensure her safety and survival.

Everything he did was for her. When she cried for him to get up when he clearly couldn't, he did it - all for her. His anxiety and concern of Clementine's well-being over his was made even clearer when Clementine was attacked by the security guard Walker and he was helpless to go to her aid.

Yet as the game comes to a close, Lee did all he could to make sure he taught Clementine whatever he could from their dire situation... he was her protector right up to the end, and successfully moulded her into a survivor who will not be helpless in face of danger.

But I think the lesson is also that nothing is for permanent, especially in a zombie apocalypse world. It was also about the maturing of Clementine from one who is protected to one who can protect herself (the scene of her killing the Walker and arming herself) without Lee. Seeing that, Lee can go in peace.

Because of this very strong connection and relationship between Lee and Clementine, which clearly affected the players as well, his death made the ending shine.

Players always feel the sense of accomplishment when they complete a game, but won't necessarily be too emotionally involved. This was an ending that achieved both. What more can you ask for?

It is a nice thought that Lee died in peace because he saw Clementine kill the zombie in the store but for me, I can't help but feel that he would have had some anxiety about the horde of zombie's awaiting her outside. I'm a full grown man and my mother calls me to check that I got home alright every time I visit my parents who live one train stop away. It's what parents do. We know that Clementine got out of Savannah safely but Lee doesn't. What more could we ask for? What's done is done. The story is written but I for one would have liked Lee to have seen Christa reunited with Clementine before he died. Only then could he truly have died in peace. Christa taking care of Clementine was his dying wish after all but then again that is just my perception, we will all interpret the game differently so some will find the ending more gratifying than others.

[staticfl]

Originally Posted by Jeenyus

Don't get me wrong, it makes for a great story and all that, but game wise it doesn't make sense. Most games you get a character and thats your role. Now its pretty much like just make me play a bunch of characters because it really doesn't matter anymore. It just sets up season two for failure, assuming they continue with the story from season 1. Which I'm pretty sure is what's gonna happen (not saying it won't be good, just not as good).

Personally for me, I see it as was Lee was me (my character in this story) now that he's dead essentially my role in this story is over. No matter how I see season 2 going, I don't think I'll have the same attachment to the game. Unless they just make a completely new story with all new characters. Which would still suck, for me at least (I'd like to know what happens to Clem at the end)

Wether I'm a new character, who ends up being Clementines new guardian, I'd want to play it like I was lee (whom I'm not). If I take the role of Clementine then it would just feel weird. Regardless of the role, sans, lee just ruins it. Personally, I feel it would have been a smarter Idea to kill Clementine. Glad they didn't. But it makes more sense game wise.

Your thoughts.. ?

I agree. Killing Lee worked, but only if it was a 1 season game. I don't think Telltale can pull off a second season as good as the first, but hopefully I'm wrong. Lee was an awesome character and will be compared to the new PC in season 2.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Jeenyus

Right, the game is about protecting Clementine. "As lee". I completely agree, killing off lee is the best ending for the story. But again this is a game at the end of the day, not a tv show or a book. Yes some games you jump from character to character, but this is pretty much story based and you're given one guy to be. If they just made an entirely new story without any connection to season 1, then I'd be fine just being a different character. I'd be curious to what happened to Clementine and what not but continuing on a second season with a new character, following the same group of people (whoever is left alive) would just feel unnatural without being "Lee".

I'm sure if they did just continue on and add a new character for you to play as, in time I'd grow to like them. I just doubt I'll enjoy the overall experience as much.

Again this is just my personal opinion

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Desmodus87

I don't really agree.
There are a lot of game series that don't offer your old character in the new game. The Fallout series, I don't believe you're ever the same person from one game to the next? (Admittedly, I have much less experience with the first two than the last two.)
And to be honest, I wasn't attached to Lee right from the get go. He won me over during the second half of the first episode and on, but first starting out, he was interesting and all, but if he had died, it wouldn't have mattered. But me and my hubby both expected him to die pretty early on. We figured Lee or Clem one would be dying, and I didn't think TTG would actually want to kill a little girl. :P (Fictional or otherwise! lol)
I just think that because they have such a powerful way of storytelling that we will all grow to love the new cast and/or storyline. I don't think there will be any shortages of "Lee was better" or "We miss Clem" threads, but I think, for the most part, people will like the new season.

I don't know if you ever played the Resistance games but although Resistance 3 is my favourite out of the trilogy I would have much preferred to have played as Nathan Hale than Joseph Capelli. Changing the protagonist in sequels can work but there are times that it doesn't. Only time will tell what camp TWD season 2 will sit, hopefully it will be a success.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Inconsu.

Yeah but season 2 is a new story. It would be lame if you were Lee all over again in the 2nd season.

I don't think even Telltale know what season 2 will be about yet, they still seem to be spit balling ideas. For all we know it might continue Clementine's story.

As for playing as Lee for another season, I don't think I would go as far to say it would be lame. It would be the conventional route to go for sure but not a negative by any means. The reason the walking dead series is so popular is because of the lengthy investment the readers have into the characters stories. By this I mean that we follow these characters over a long period of time and begin to care about them and worry about their safety. The characters are fleshed out and well written to the point where they seem real. We would have been reading about characters like Glenn for 8 years of our lives. When characters like that eventually die it has more impact than when characters die after say, 15 issues. The latter are considered "red shirts."

TWD game was so good that it already had a winning formula. Even if they had given us more of the same we would of loved it. Considering that the season 1 was only 5 episodes long I don't think it would have been too repetitive or lame had Lee have made it to the 6th episode. Lets face he was killed to evoke sadness and he was killed early for shock value. If he didn't die the game would still of been sad. Killing the protagonist was the shock factor.

[Mark$man]

Well... I believe that somehow Lee can survive to season 2. That if you made all the right decisions he could be back, not as a playable character of course, but maybe for just a few minutes, make a brief cameo. Either that or as a zombie.

...After that note, I truly think it wasn't a great idea. They made you feel like Lee so much that when he died, it was like a piece of me died inside. Also made you feel bad because it made me feel like I left her alone and parentless. I can't see playing as someone else in the same story with Clem, or at the very least feel like I am actually who my avatar is.

[Jaded X Gamer]

Originally Posted by dee23

Yeah his story has finished but if Clementine's story continues his absence will feel strange. Could Clementine realistically bond with a new character the way she did with Lee? Time will tell but I find it unlikely.

It will be fine if season 2 is centered around new characters but if Clementine's story continues it will probably feel weird because she is associated with Lee and he with her. They were a duo. In most of the game's advertising posters the two were together and the story was depicted as focusing on their relationship in the ZA, having one with out the other is like having a ratchet and clank game without Ratchet. Yeah they exist but they're fucking weird.

Would it really be any stranger for Clementine to bond with new characters than it was for Lee to bond with new people after losing half the group in episode three? Hell, Clem bonded with Lee after he came out of nowhere. I agree that simply having someone else serve as Clementine's parental figure would be strange but to be against her ever forming connections with new people at all sounds almost selfish.

If anything it would likely be a natural continuation of the parental themes in the first season. Season one you get to raise her, season two you could watch what kind of person she grows into, see how she applies the lessons you teach her. Clementine had a life before Lee and hopefully she'll have one after him, I wouldn't mind watching it unfold.

By the same measure is it really that hard for people to think you could be made to care as much about a new character as you did for Lee? He wasn't some keystone to the entire Walking Dead universe or some long running character we've known for generations. He was a well written character people were sad to see, but he was hardly the only one. He wasn't even the only in the game, he was just one of several.

I wonder, all you people who think killing Lee or continuing the series without him is a major mistake, have you ever seen a zombie... well anything before this game? Because the zombie sub-genre is rife with both killing central characters and continuing stories with entirely new casts. Right from the outset with Night of the Living Dead, a series that's never starred the same characters twice as far as I know.

And it's true for video games in the genre too. Dead Rising changed protagonists between games, as did Left 4 Dead. Hell, Resident Evil and Resident Evil 2 had completely different casts and it could be considered the forerunner for modern zombie video games. If anything, video games are more receiptable as a genre to cast changes due to players always being allowed to project a part of themselves into the experience. None of the Grand Theft Auto games star the same person.

If anything it would have been weird to me if Lee hadn't died. Right from the beginning I figured he would probably die at some point. Between the cop talking about what Lee did and the look of regret on Lee's face I assumed this would be a tale of redemption with Lee dying as part of his atonement.

Between that and people constantly facing the horror of losing the ones they loved most and I figured it was obvious that something would eventually separate Lee and Clementine, with death being the most likely choice. I was just relieved it was Lee and not Clementine who died.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by gimmeseason2

Leaving Lee alive or saving him would not have made the game(season 1) as memorable and heartbreaking as it was in my opinion . But I guess many other people may see this in a different way.

You are completely right. The game was more memorable for it. It had that shock value. That being said keeping Lee around longer would not have made the game less true to the walking dead. Some people seem to think that a walking dead story has to always end on a sad note when in actual fact it doesn't. The world of the walking dead is bleak, you know that the characters will all die eventually but that is not to say that every story arc has a depressing ending. Many of the walking dead story arcs have ended on a positive note. i.e The end of The miles behind us story arc when Rick's group found the prison, The end of the This sorrowful life story arc when Glen proposes to Maggie at the prison, the end of the Here we remain story arc when Rick and his group survive a zombie attack and join a new group to go to Washington, the end of The what we become story arc when the group survive their first experience with a zombie herd and Rick is reunited with an old friend, the end of the Life among them story arc where Rick's group are in a safe community.

If Telltale were only making one season then killing virtually everyone is fine, but in light of them planning a second season I think Lee could have been around longer and his death scene could have had the impact it had if not bigger at the end of season 2 as we would have been even more attached to him.