What's with everyone hating on Kenny?

[Mark$man]

So... what does this have to do with people hating Kenny? lol

[Jaded X Gamer]

Originally Posted by Mark$man

So... what does this have to do with people hating Kenny? lol

Nothing. Just anytime anyone brings up Lilly I start ranting.

On topic, I think Kenny is annoying because of how personally he takes ever fucking slight. I "sided" with Lilly in the meat locker on my first playthrough and he suddenly acts like I wanted Kat and Duck to die. You bring up the fact that you save Katjaa and Duck from the St. Johns and he comes back with "I saved them by stopping Larry from coming back!" I didn't even think he was entirely wrong for wanting to stop Larry from coming back, I just wanted to be sure he was dead before we did it, stop taking it so fucking personally.

And then at the end of episode four he brings up how there were plenty of times you weren't there for him and I'm just thinking "When?" I didn't help you kill Larry, so what? I immediately risked my life to save your kid and wife, I was saving people left and right during the bandit attack, I saved your ass in Savannah when you got grabbed. He equates me not killing people he thought should be killed (Larry, Ben, Woman in Streets[In that case I killed her the wrong way]) as not being there for him. If I wanted him to kill someone I could understand him saying no but I never hesitated to stick my neck out for him.

To me it's always worth bringing Ben along just to finally snap some sense back into Kenny in episode five.

[RobtMyers]

Originally Posted by Advanced

1. If Clem or Shawn is in trouble, wouldn't you make sure Clem is safe before Shawn is? Especially if there's another person around to help the other.

Yes, but either of those kids were perfectly able to run away if told to do so. Kenny even carried the guilt of abandoning Lee and Shawn for the rest of the game.

Originally Posted by Advanced

2. If Larry would be screaming that Clem is bitten and want's to throw her out, wouldn't you get defensive and wanna punch him in the face?

Not knowing how vile Larry was yet I tried to reason with him, and if it was Clem he wanted to toss my first reaction would still be that. But because I didn't throw more fuel on the fire, Kenny turned on me for being "disloyal." Kenny was as much of a problem at that point as the Cauls.

Originally Posted by Advanced

3. If you looted the entire area around you and ran out of resources wouldn't you want to move on if you had your own RV? Nothing left.

I didn't know if it was a good idea, but I didn't know if staying was so hot either. Either way I don't get upset over matters of strategy.

Originally Posted by Advanced

4. (The most debatable one, but I will always side with Kenny here) Killing Larry. I am stunned by how many people decided to try and save him. Are you guys serious?

Hell yes I'm serious, and I don't regret that choice. Realistically he probably didn't have a chance since he had no meds and he would have needed a trip to intensive care to survive. But I knew it was fiction and CPR and defibrillators can bring anyone back if applied soon enough.

I didn't kill Ben either, even though by that point I hated him more than Larry. Why? It's like Lee says in the dialog option if you vote to keep Ben in Crawford. He directly compared the act of abandoning Ben to what the people of Crawford routinely did. And as bad as Larry was, he wasn't as incompetent as Ben or as much of a crazed loose cannon as his daughter. Yes I abandoned Lilly, but she had just shot someone in cold blood because she lost an argument.

Larry though? He tried to abandon Lee, sure, and he was an old racist asshole. But he deserved a chance. And when I helped Lilly, she was the one to back Lee up instead of your "buddy" Kenny.

Originally Posted by Advanced

5. If Clem was bitten... wouldn't YOU want to hold out on killing her? Wouldn't you want to grasp on to hope and have every last second with her?

Yes, and I talked Kenny down as gently as possible from his completely understandable reaction. We didn't fight.

Originally Posted by Advanced

6. Finally, if you found out that Ben took away everything you had in your life... Let's say Ben got Clem killed, caused numerous other deaths and was lying to you this entire time, wouldn't YOU want him dead in the spur of the moment? At the end of the day you all have emotions.

I certainly did want Ben dead, and had forgotten just how much until I listened to my audio recording of Ep. 4. But at the end of MY day I found (to my satisfaction) that I have too much of a conscience to allow someone to die just because they're stupid.

Until his epiphany in episode five Kenny was selfish, self-centered, reckless, pushy, judgmental, cowardly, disloyal, pig-headed, arrogant and stupid. And as he said, Katjaa rightly chewed him out for it every night in bed.

While there were no perfect choices for who to take care of Clem, the biggest sin I saw in Omid and Christa was her naive optimism.

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by RobtMyers

Hell yes I'm serious, and I don't regret that choice. Realistically he probably didn't have a chance since he had no meds and he would have needed a trip to intensive care to survive. But I knew it was fiction and CPR and defibrillators can bring anyone back if applied soon enough.

I didn't kill Ben either, even though by that point I hated him more than Larry. Why? It's like Lee says in the dialog option if you vote to keep Ben in Crawford. He directly compared the act of abandoning Ben to what the people of Crawford routinely did. And as bad as Larry was, he wasn't as incompetent as Ben or as much of a crazed loose cannon as his daughter. Yes I abandoned Lilly, but she had just shot someone in cold blood because she lost an argument.

Larry though? He tried to abandon Lee, sure, and he was an old racist asshole. But he deserved a chance. And when I helped Lilly, she was the one to back Lee up instead of your "buddy" Kenny.

i think you are missing the point, killing larry had nothing to do with the fact the he was an asshole (that was just a bonus), it was the fact that if you don't kill him he would kill you as a zombie, when i replayed that episode and chose not to kill larry i expected a zombie fighting sequence so i was totally shocked that kenny killed him anyway, but he made the right choice

[double_u]

Originally Posted by RobtMyers

Larry though? He tried to abandon Lee, sure, and he was an old racist asshole.

Just of curiosity, has there been any actual dialogue besides the Lee-Mark chat that prove Larry could be a racist? My gut tells me he isn't, because Larry made it very clear at the end of episode one he would protect Clementine if Lee tried to hurt her.

That said, Larry is still an asshole.

[Jaded X Gamer]

Originally Posted by double_u

Just of curiosity, has there been any actual dialogue besides the Lee-Mark chat that prove Larry could be a racist? My gut tells me he isn't, because Larry made it very clear at the end of episode one he would protect Clementine if Lee tried to hurt her.

That said, Larry is still an asshole.

It's still fun to call him one and then own up to it later at motel. it's like "Whatcha gonna do old man? You want keep secrets from everyone? Then I gotta think of some explanation why you hate me most. I figure this worked best!"

[RobtMyers]

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

i think you are missing the point, killing larry had nothing to do with the fact the he was an asshole (that was just a bonus), it was the fact that if you don't kill him he would kill you as a zombie, when i replayed that episode and chose not to kill larry i expected a zombie fighting sequence so i was totally shocked that kenny killed him anyway, but he made the right choice

No, I'm not missing the point. The original question was about how much of an asshole Larry was, not about the likelihood of him dying. We'd seen him collapse before and just lay there for a while. I genuinely believe Kenny saw a chance for thinly veiled revenge, took it, and got up in my face when I didn't back his asinine justification.

And while Larry never used the n-word or anything, the fact that Lee was even considering it as a response was enough evidence to me that he gave it some credence.

[Rock114]

It's possible that Larry's a tad racist, given his age. I don't think he is, though he's still a huge asshole. I didn't kill him because of that though, I killed him because I didn't wanna get chomped. The fact that it was Larry probably DID make that choice slightly easier though.

[Jaded X Gamer]

Originally Posted by RobtMyers

No, I'm not missing the point. The original question was about how much of an asshole Larry was, not about the likelihood of him dying. We'd seen him collapse before and just lay there for a while. I genuinely believe Kenny saw a chance for thinly veiled revenge, took it, and got up in my face when I didn't back his asinine justification.

Not like that we didn't. When he had a heart attack in Macon he retained consciousness and was able to speak and move to a limited extent. In the meat locker he's completely out and stops breathing. Lilly herself said sometimes his heart attacks were so bad that he had to be taken to a hospital, so odds are even if Larry could be revived he was probably still fucked.

Larry being a huge asshole probably made it easier for Kenny to do what he did but really I just think he was scared. He acts tough but you can tell that the walkers still freak Kenny out. If it's his family or someone he considers family in danger he can usually handle it, but for anyone else he usually loses his shit.

Originally Posted by Rock114

It's possible that Larry's a tad racist, given his age. I don't think he is, though he's still a huge asshole. I didn't kill him because of that though, I killed him because I didn't wanna get chomped. The fact that it was Larry probably DID make that choice slightly easier though.

I don't think Larry was actually racist, it seems to hate everyone pretty much equally.

[Desmodus87]

Originally Posted by double_u

Just of curiosity, has there been any actual dialogue besides the Lee-Mark chat that prove Larry could be a racist? My gut tells me he isn't, because Larry made it very clear at the end of episode one he would protect Clementine if Lee tried to hurt her.

That said, Larry is still an asshole.

I think it was more to do with the "boy" comments to/about Lee. It's meant to be disrespectful to any grown man, I suppose, but I know it was especially rampant awhile back. White men called black men (even those who were much older than them) 'boy' to demonstrate that blacks were below them. At least that's my understanding, though I'm too young to have grown up with too much of that. I think that's probably where a lot of the racist speculation comes from.
Do I think he's racist? Not exactly. I think he was hateful, and an asshole. I think that because Lee was a strong man, he couldn't really call him a pussy or something, so he had to resort to semi-racist comments. I hope that makes sense lol. Basically, I think he would've taken any shot he could with anyone he didn't like, regardless of race and whatnot.

[aerial-ballet]

Well if we're going to single out characters for being racist, we mustn't forget Andy St. John calling Lee "boy" when he catches him snooping around in that back room, as well as Kenny with his infamous "urban" remark.

[double_u]

Originally Posted by Desmodus87

I think it was more to do with the "boy" comments to/about Lee. It's meant to be disrespectful to any grown man, I suppose, but I know it was especially rampant awhile back. White men called black men (even those who were much older than them) 'boy' to demonstrate that blacks were below them. At least that's my understanding, though I'm too young to have grown up with too much of that. I think that's probably where a lot of the racist speculation comes from.
Do I think he's racist? Not exactly. I think he was hateful, and an asshole. I think that because Lee was a strong man, he couldn't really call him a pussy or something, so he had to resort to semi-racist comments. I hope that makes sense lol. Basically, I think he would've taken any shot he could with anyone he didn't like, regardless of race and whatnot.

Good point, Desmodus. I was recently chatting with a friend, and she mentioned that her grandfather said that a white man calling a black man a "boy" meant exactly what you described, especially back in those days.

[Hudomonkey]

I hate Kenny because he forgets everything you do for him unless you do everything

I wasn't going to let Larry die, and afterwards he just got on my nerve and I lost my temper
I wasn't going to care about him anymore

[Bidoof]

I agree... Although not everyone hates Kenny there is a fair few haters out there.... The only thing I found kinda annoying is that of you didn't side with Kenny for one thing you were instantly the arsehole out of everyone which didn't seem very fair. Kenny is a great guy and I really like him as a character but he can sometimes annoy me with his ethic of if you disagree with me once I will hate on you for ages and then claim you never liked me for an episode and if you do it again then ill say you never had my back and won't help you save Clem... I find this sick! Quite honestly if it were duck who was missing I would help him find him!!

But I love Kenny and he was always one of my favourite characters

[Toitle_John]

Okay, I don't know why people don't see this. Kenny is a FAMILY MAN. If you don't help him kill Larry he sees it as not caring about his family. Obviously if they gave us different dialogue choices to make him understand why we were giving him CPR, but they don't and he sees it as you don't want to do what needs to be done to help his family. I think it's stupid you basically have to be his bitch to get the bro speech but that's just the guy he is. If you do anything that can be counted as going against or not protecting his family, he'll hold a grudge.

[Mornai]

Kenny may have been a family man but he took it too far. Kenny himself says Katjaa chewed him out every single night because he didn't care about others instead of just his family. It's a shame he couldn't realize this until his last moments...

[Mikejames]

Originally Posted by Mornai

Kenny may have been a family man but he took it too far. Kenny himself says Katjaa chewed him out every single night because he didn't care about others instead of just his family. It's a shame he couldn't realize this until his last moments...

Yeah, Kenny isn't an inherently bad guy, but for me, he defined fair-weather friend.

I saved and defended Duck, I fed his family, I tried to mediate peacefully between him and Lilly, but the moment I said that we should give Larry a chance he doesn't hesitate to kill him, cause Lilly to have a mental breakdown, and leave me for dead.

I still felt genuinely sorry for him after what happens with his family, but his hypocrisy during it all didn't help. I suppose he found his own redemption in the end though.

[dee23]

Originally Posted by Jaded X Gamer

Random people? That's what Lee, Clem, Carley/Doug, Kenny, Kat and Duck were to her? The people who have been taking risks, fetching supplies, putting their lives on the line for months at a time and helping to keep her safe? Just a bunch of random people? Just tools for her to use? The only reason there even was an R.V. to take is because Kenny had the common sense to fix it. If he had listened to Lilly they'd have none and everyone probably would have died during the bandit attack.

Tell me, do you think Vernon gets more hate than he deserves? Because compared to Lilly he was a god damn saint. He helps Omid, get's you into Crawford to get the things Kenny needs to fix the boat and loses one of his own people in the process. Then he steals a boat that he was partially responsible for repairing to save the people he was taking care of for months over the lives of people he's known for less than twenty-four hours.

And the reason for that being his people knew the approaching hoard would make staying in Savannah impossible, so they did a shitty thing to save their own skins when a looming threat (the hoard) presented itself. And even then, depending on who stays with the boat, it's suggested he does at least feel guilty about. Either with his note saying he was sorry or Ben telling everyone how pissed he was the group lost Clementine, probably because he wanted to take her with him.

Vernon didn't pull a gun and shoot someone in a paranoid fit of petty rage (all though Brie wanted him to do that), complain about how him murdering someone in cold blood is causing other people to treat him like shit, then steal a vehicle he spent months bitching about as a waste of time to save just himself and no one else. He didn't sit on his ass when the group needed supplies either, he went right into the fire and brought another one of his people with him.

Fuck, Ben has more courage than Lilly. Ben, like Lilly, is blamed for people's deaths, ironically including whoever Lilly murdered. Ben, unlike Lilly, isn't a goddamn sociopath. Ben feels horrid guilt over the things he's done, unlike Lilly who complains about being detained for committing murder. Ben owns up to what he does (at the WORST possible time though) and accepts the consequences, going as far as to ask Lee to let him die for what he's done.

You think Lilly gets more hate than she deserves? That's fine, that's your opinion. In my opinion she was a worthless irredeemable cunt who liked bossing people around because it meant she could keep her bony chickenshit ass parked somewhere safe while other people died for her safety. Different strokes for different folks.

But you're fucking crazy if you think she would have gone with Lee to get Clementine. She thinks Ben dealing with the bandits is the same as cutting your throat while you sleep? How would you think Lilly would react when she found out Clementine had been secretly dealing with a stranger over the radio? Fuck, I felt kinda betrayed when I found that out and I loved Clementine.

You really think queen bitch, who up and left Clem and Lee after lying about taking them along, is going to risk her life to get Clementine back? The same girl she yelled at Carley for saving back in Macon? After Clementine went behind the group's back to chase a pipe dream a weirdo over a radio was offering her? When there's a fully working escape vehicle sitting right there? I take it back, Lilly wouldn't have gone with Vernon's group if she was in that situation, she would have stolen the boat before Vernon's people ever even got there.

My biggest regret on my first play through was letting her back in the R.V. I figured she deserved a second chance because Lee got a second chance after killing someone in an emotional state and he went on to do a lot of good for a lot of people. Lilly's given a second chance and she immediately back stabs everyone the very first moment she gets, after shooting one of them in the back of the head a little earlier. All because she was afraid of what? Exile? Isn't that exactly what Lee prevented if you choose to not leave her on the side of the road?

Fuck the bitch. Now that she's an "original character" I hope she pops up in season two and we're given the opportunity to finish what we started in season one and finally putting her out of everyone's misery.

Wow you really hate Lilly. I was wondering if we were playing the same game. When I recall episode 2 Lilly made herself useful by keeping watch. Of all of the characters we saw she looked the most tired which suggests that she sacrificed sleep more, spent more time keeping watch whilst the others rested, looking out for the group’s overall survival.

Kenny spent most of his time fixing the R.V, that was his priority, so he could leave with his family and anyone he felt earned the right to come with them. By contrast Lilly didn't want to move so she made fortifying the motor inn a priority.

Lilly may have seemed like she was bossing everyone around but that was tough love. Her choices and way of doing things wasn't popular but her decision to ration food kept the group alive.

There is a lot that went on off screen. You have to take note of what the NPC's have to say about the characters they lived with. To suggest Lilly didn't care for the group and that they were random people to her is an opinion but Clementine presents facts when she reminisces in conversation with Lee, how Lilly looked out for her, giving her hair bands to tie her hair back before she went to bed etc, which gives the image of a caring woman. By contrast in conversation with Lee in ep5 Kenny admits that Kat used to have arguments with him at night in bed and give him hell about how he didn't care enough for the wider group as he always focused on his family.

You talk about Lilly sitting around, being lazy and ordering everyone around. I recall Kenny getting Lee to do the dirty work. He had Lee sneak into the ST Johns secret room whilst he was sitting down for dinner, He had Lee sneak from the barn stall to confront Danny whilst he hid, He sat down comfortably at the train controls whilst Lee worked out how to fix the train, then took over as the train commander once Lee did the manual work with the train spike, he had Lee sneak and confront Molly whilst he hid, He drinks himself into oblivion whilst Clem finds the boat then he calls the boat his and dictates who will be able to ride on it like he did with the RV. Speaking of the RV the RV was available to the group because of what Lee and Carly did, when they killed the walkers in the motor inn, Kenny fixed it because he had those skills but even without the RV they still had his truck as a source of transport. He fixed the RV as a mobile home until he could get to the coast because he didn't want to stay at the motor inn. It was a luxury not a necessity.

Don't get me wrong Lilly wasn't perfect, she snapped but part of why she snapped was from the pressure of being the de-factor leader. Rick Grimes also snapped at the prison and that was before he lost his wife. He wasn't sleeping well because he was constantly worrying about the group, he got into a full blown fight with Tyreese and that was when Dale told him he shouldn't be leader anymore because of the pressure the role was having on him and the committee was formed.

Kenny did a lot for his family but Lilly did a lot for the group and even had her hero moments. In my play through she saved Lee twice in quick successions. She shanked Danny and shot Andy. I'm aware those scenarios are determinant but the sequence when she saves the whole group from the bandit raid is not. That sequence plays out that way regardless of your relationship with her. When Lee was shitting himself she kept a clear head and planned the counter attack against the bandits, instructing Lee to distract them so she could get a vantage point. She took out the leader/guy calling the shots, allowing the hostages to run and hide whilst Lee took out the rest.

Regarding Lilly stealing the RV can you really blame her? By this point she felt paranoid, isolated, alone and cast out. She had been tied up and believed the group were planning to kill her or abandon her in a safer place. Even if Lee agreed to come with her she wouldn't of really trusted him to choose her over the group, she wasn't stupid. She stole the RV for survival. At that point it was her or them. Do you really think the group would have accepted her back in the fold like nothing happened? They no longer trusted her although they wouldn't of killed her they wouldn't have wanted to take her to Savannah which was where Kenny was going before the RV was blocked by the train.

The only thing I held against Lilly was her shooting Carly but even that was the result of her projecting her anger about Ben onto her when Carly touched on the delicate subject of her father's death and her perception of her being "daddy's little princess". Again I draw comparison to when Tyreese fought with Rick. In that scenario can we really be sure that Rick wouldn't have shot Tyreese if he had a gun on him or strangled him to death with his bare hands for that matter, in his rage? Both Rick and Lilly were beyond breaking point during their arguments.

The fact is most of the hate Lilly got was because she was perceived as an antagonist from the beginning and hated because of what people felt she would go on to do to Lori. Telltale wrote her as an antagonist because they themselves saw the comic character Lilly as a villain. now that Lilly is no longer intended to be the character from the comics Telltale could enable her to redeem herself in season 2 if they wanted to bring her back. If they did bring her back she would probably be portrayed differently because she would no longer fit their perception of Lilly from the comics.

I think a big problem was how Telltale perceived Lilly in the first place which was probably why Kirkman felt the need to set people straight on how Lilly was envisaged when he created her. In their interview on playing dead they spoke of Lilly doing something that was nuts, referring to when she shot Lori which suggests that they saw her as an evil person or someone who was at least crazy. What they completely missed was the fact that Lilly was a normal woman who was tricked by the Governor into opening fire on Rick's people and she wasn't one of the Governor's elite troops that was aware of his twisted plans.

So yeah, I think Lilly was misunderstood from even before the game was released and the hate she's generated has had a snow ball effect.

[Mark$man]

Doesn't matter. Even if they are separate people, the Lilly Caul of the game is still terrible, and I disagree with your statements about Kenny. I know Jaded will write something better than me though, so I'll let his fire the gun and I'll cover him from behind xD But I really hate that woman, game or comics lol

[Mornai]

I played the game before i ever even heard of the franchise, but i still disliked Lilly the moment i met her. The first thing she does is try to get the player and their group thrown out into the streets to die. I don't think the comic played such a huge role in the hatred for her.