TTG really messed up the Kenny/Lee dynamic

[jakomocha]

Originally Posted by Jaded X Gamer

I know this is old, but can I just say real quick that would have been a hilarious exchange. Sorta like if you let Clem vote in Crawford then vote to kick Ben out anyways.

That's what I did... and I regret it. I feel bad, and I never wanted Ben to die (which is why I saved him). I just wanted Kenny to stop being such a jerk to me so I hoped this would win him over even though it didn't. Including, I had a gut feeling we would never make it to the boat so it wouldn't really matter. We have to remember that Ben is still a kid and I think the reason most people didn't like him was because he sort of came in out of the blue and then screwed the group up. However what most of you guys don't realize is that if Ben didn't give the food to the bandits then the bandits would have straight out attacked the group, seeing what they did the moment they didn't find the food because Lee took it away.

[Marrin]

I like how they made Kenny the character he is, i dont think he's not realistic, he's a sellfish bastard, however my only complaint is that i dont have an option of a manly response to him!!

I thought i found one when you are offered the F**K Off response in episode 4 but then you end up being talked down to again!!

It's frustrating cause i wanna tell him about all the times i helped him AND ABOUT ALL THE TIMES THAT ASSHOLE LEFT ME FOR DEAD!!!!!!

i forgave him all of those, EVERY TIME!! And he chickens out not wanting to go after Clem!!

I hate him as a person but as a character he's great to get your emotions kick in (regardless of how negative they are)!!

BUT PLEASE LET US HAVE THE OPTION TO REALLY TEACH HIM A LESSON!!

ASSHOLE!!!

[vivec]

Originally Posted by Marrin

I like how they made Kenny the character he is, i dont think he's not realistic, he's a sellfish bastard, however my only complaint is that i dont have an option of a manly response to him!!

I thought i found one when you are offered the F**K Off response in episode 4 but then you end up being talked down to again!!

It's frustrating cause i wanna tell him about all the times i helped him AND ABOUT ALL THE TIMES THAT ASSHOLE LEFT ME FOR DEAD!!!!!!

i forgave him all of those, EVERY TIME!! And he chickens out not wanting to go after Clem!!

I hate him as a person but as a character he's great to get your emotions kick in (regardless of how negative they are)!!

BUT PLEASE LET US HAVE THE OPTION TO REALLY TEACH HIM A LESSON!!

ASSHOLE!!!

What have you done for him , lately?

[Mark$man]

Considering he leaves you from dead... you were probably quite the asshole to him. My Kenny was pretty much nothing but loyal and a great friend. You can't stop spats or arguments, but he always had my back. How he treats you is a reflection of how you treated him. You may not see it that way, but he does, and I do too after thinking about it. Like trying to save Larry after all he did put his family and your's in danger. Maybe he could have survived, but you didn't have the time, and he would be one hell of a zombie. Shooting that girl would risk your life and Kenny's, and the girl would die anyway. If you try to reason with Larry or agree that Duck was bitten, obviously Kenny won't like you too much. And he'll still save your butt in Macon and gave you the ride to Macon in the first place. I can't defend Kenny completely, there are times he can be a dick, but he knows that, and inevitably makes up for it. And if you talk to him about Clem being your family he will go with you to help her.

[Mark$man]

Originally Posted by vivec

What have you done for him , lately?

lol. He was only joking with Molly, if you couldn't hear his sarcastic tone. And I couldn't blame him for not trusting her, considering you had just met her, and would have killed you and Kenny(if you are slow) if Clem hadn't shown up. And then would have left you behind. She also indirectly got Chuck killed. Just sayin.

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by vivec

What have you done for him , lately?

that line reminded me of the what have the Romans ever done for us part in life of Brian http://youtu.be/ExWfh6sGyso

[vivec]

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

that line reminded me of the what have the Romans ever done for us part in life of Brian http://youtu.be/ExWfh6sGyso

Also

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9uizdKZAGE

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by vivec

Also

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9uizdKZAGE

lol i like how this wasn't supposed to be hilarious at the time it was made

[Jaded X Gamer]

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

that line reminded me of the what have the Romans ever done for us part in life of Brian http://youtu.be/ExWfh6sGyso

Aqueduct? Molly helped Lee get into the aqueduct.

[Rommel49]

Originally Posted by jakomocha

That's what I did... and I regret it. I feel bad, and I never wanted Ben to die (which is why I saved him). I just wanted Kenny to stop being such a jerk to me so I hoped this would win him over even though it didn't. Including, I had a gut feeling we would never make it to the boat so it wouldn't really matter. We have to remember that Ben is still a kid and I think the reason most people didn't like him was because he sort of came in out of the blue and then screwed the group up. However what most of you guys don't realize is that if Ben didn't give the food to the bandits then the bandits would have straight out attacked the group, seeing what they did the moment they didn't find the food because Lee took it away.

Actually, people tend to forget that the bandits were attacking the group beforehand and never really got anywhere. Look at the wall and gate of the motor inn at the start of Episode 3, the wall's riddled with arrows and bullet holes. The bandits had been attacking for weeks and didn't breach the place.

Ben's deal just created a false sense of security when the bandits stopped attacking for a few days, as evidenced by the fact he was the guy on the watch when their attack succeeded (when that was primarily Lilly or Carley's duty, if the latter was alive). Hell, had Carley been on watch, I'm not even sure the bandits would've made it through the gate - she was able to spot the St. Johns approaching from ground level through the wall, Ben either failed to spot an entire group of people approaching from an elevated position or just let them approach.

[double_u]

Originally Posted by Rommel49

Ben either failed to spot an entire group of people approaching from an elevated position or just let them approach.

Totally. It actually makes me wonder what Ben didn't tell Lee when he admitted his guilt. The fact he didn't raise an alarm when bandits were climbing up the walls makes me suspicious Ben's deal went beyond just giving supplies.

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by Rommel49

Actually, people tend to forget that the bandits were attacking the group beforehand and never really got anywhere. Look at the wall and gate of the motor inn at the start of Episode 3, the wall's riddled with arrows and bullet holes. The bandits had been attacking for weeks and didn't breach the place.

Ben's deal just created a false sense of security when the bandits stopped attacking for a few days, as evidenced by the fact he was the guy on the watch when their attack succeeded (when that was primarily Lilly or Carley's duty, if the latter was alive). Hell, had Carley been on watch, I'm not even sure the bandits would've made it through the gate - she was able to spot the St. Johns approaching from ground level through the wall, Ben either failed to spot an entire group of people approaching from an elevated position or just let them approach.

that elevated position was in a really bad place for spotting anything but a direct attack from the woods in front of the motel, the buildings either side of the parking lot would have blocked any view of an attack from the sides, that is why the signal for the supply drop was on one side of the motel and the stash was on the other side, because it couldn't be seen from the parking lot, the lookout they had was really more of a superficial "feel safe" lookout position that an actual strategic lookout position, so Ben failing to see them attack was probably a genuine sneak attack rather than Ben letting them attack

[double_u]

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

that elevated position was in a really bad place for spotting anything but a direct attack from the woods in front of the motel, the buildings either side of the parking lot would have blocked any view of an attack from the sides, that is why the signal for the supply drop was on one side of the motel and the stash was on the other side, because it couldn't be seen from the parking lot, the lookout they had was really more of a superficial "feel safe" lookout position that an actual strategic lookout position, so Ben failing to see them attack was probably a genuine sneak attack rather than Ben letting them attack

Except no matter what angle of approach, the bandits still had to climb over the wall which means they had to come in sight of the lookout as soon as the first head popped up. So Ben either chickened out and didn't fire because he's pathetic or he let them attack and didn't open fire when the first bandit climbed up the wall.

I do agree the RV wasn't the best spot in terms of cover. A sniper in the forest could've drop the lookout easily since it was totally exposed.

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by double_u

Except no matter what angle of approach, the bandits still had to climb over the wall which means they had to come in sight of the lookout as soon as the first head popped up. So Ben either chickened out and didn't fire because he's pathetic or he let them attack and didn't open fire when the first bandit climbed up the wall.

I do agree the RV wasn't the best spot in terms of cover. A sniper in the forest could've drop the lookout easily since it was totally exposed.

they didn't need to get over the wall just get near enough to point a gun a peoples heads then they get over the wall, and nobody not even lilly would have shot someone the second they came round the corner, also considering Ben was not good with guns shooting at them probably would have just meant a dead member of Lee's group not a dead bandit because he would have missed and caused a gunfight that they would loose

[double_u]

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

they didn't need to get over the wall just get near enough to point a gun a peoples heads then they get over the wall, and nobody not even lilly would have shot someone the second they came round the corner, also considering Ben was not good with guns shooting at them probably would have just meant a dead member of Lee's group not a dead bandit because he would have missed and caused a gunfight that they would loose

I'm not sure what you mean by the first part. Considering the wall was high enough, to put a gun at someone's head, don't they need to climb up the wall first? And that's even assuming the bandits are doing what you assume they did and that someone was standing put in the right spot for them. They could have just climbed over the wall as well with Ben not noticing or letting them.

And if Ben is a bad shot, did he go mute? He's a sentry. It's his job to call out a warning to the group. Surely, he's capable of at least yelling "Bandits!" Yeah, he's incompetent, but this level of incompetence is so bad that it makes me wonder if he let them in.

And as a sentry, he's the first line of defense. It's his job to both warn and start shooting hostiles so others could stand to when the inn got attacked. No one expects a sentry to win a fight by himself. His job is to watch for danger and warn the group.

The fact of the matter is we hear absolutely no warning at all from Ben. And considering how the bandits have to climb over the wall in full view of the sentry...there's really no excuse for Ben.

[thestalkinghead]

Originally Posted by double_u

I'm not sure what you mean by the first part. Considering the wall was high enough, to put a gun at someone's head, don't they need to climb up the wall first? And that's even assuming the bandits are doing what you assume they did and that someone was standing put in the right spot for them. They could have just climbed over the wall as well with Ben not noticing or letting them.

And if Ben is a bad shot, did he go mute? He's a sentry. It's his job to call out a warning to the group. Surely, he's capable of at least yelling "Bandits!" Yeah, he's incompetent, but this level of incompetence is so bad that it makes me wonder if he let them in.

And as a sentry, he's the first line of defense. It's his job to both warn and start shooting hostiles so others could stand to when the inn got attacked. No one expects a sentry to win a fight by himself. His job is to watch for danger and warn the group.

The fact of the matter is we hear absolutely no warning at all from Ben. And considering how the bandits have to climb over the wall in full view of the sentry...there's really no excuse for Ben.

the wall they constructed was not very high, we didn't see what happened but i think it is safe to assume it was an ambush (carley even got caught out) that could mean that a few bandits from either side of the constructed wall (behind the buildings wall) pointed their guns at the group and were in such an advantageous position that surrendering (like they did) would be the best course of action, and as i said the "sentry" or Ben could not have seen that coming until the group were already at gun point so there was no warning from Ben because he didn't see them until they already knew the bandits were there anyway because they were pointing guns at them

[double_u]

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

the wall they constructed was not very high, we didn't see what happened but i think it is safe to assume it was an ambush (carley even got caught out) that could mean that a few bandits from either side of the constructed wall (behind the buildings wall) pointed their guns at the group and were in such an advantageous position that surrendering (like they did) would be the best course of action, and as i said the "sentry" or Ben could not have seen that coming until the group were already at gun point so there was no warning from Ben because he didn't see them until they already knew the bandits were there anyway because they were pointing guns at them

Let's just assume that was what happened. Then I don't see how Ben has any excuses. If the bandits were in line of sight to aim their weapons at the group, then the bandits themselves were in line of sight of the sentry/group. Furthermore, all of this involve moving enough bandits into line of sight to completely overpower the group, and one of the things they teach about fieldcraft/camouflage in the army is that the human eye is naturally drawn to movement. So it seems like Ben was just totally zoning out or didn't care.

Now let's look at a screenshot of the inn:



So yes, you're right that the wall, for the most part at least, isn't that high. However, the only approach where the bandits could have reasonably closed in on the inn undetected would be where Ben's drop off point is. There's too much open ground on the other side due to the RV being closer to the drop off point. But as you can see in the screenshot, the wall by the drop off point is actually more than high enough that no one could have aimed their weapons through there as you suggest. They would have to walk to or past the garbage containers within clear sight of the sentry.

So yeah, the group was caught off guard but only because Ben wasn't paying attention or was collaborating with the bandits.

[thestalkinghead]

maybe this could explain why being caught off guard doesn't require Ben to be not paying attention or collaborating with them

[Mornai]

First....lol at Doug sleeping on the couch. Second, I'm fairly certain the RV was moved elsewhere from its position in that screenshot during episode 3, for what that's worth. It was more in the center of the Inn.


As for Kenny...if you go against him in the meat locker, i think he keeps his family in mind every time he leaves you for dead. When he stops and glances at the door wondering whether he should save Lee, he's probably thinking "This is the same guy who wanted my family to die so we could save that asshole Larry" or something similar. Since the only reason he wanted Larry dead was because he feared it would prevent him from saving his family, it sort of makes sense.

[double_u]

Originally Posted by thestalkinghead

maybe this could explain why being caught off guard doesn't require Ben to be not paying attention or collaborating with them

But this goes back to one my earlier points several posts ago: people still need to pop their heads up. The bandits don't just materialize in a weapons ready position even if they did sneak up. They still have to move their heads up first putting them in line of sight of Ben. An like I said, the human eye is naturally attracted to movement, especially when there isn't much movement the other side of the wall. It's more than enough time for Ben to yell out a single word of warning to the group.

Originally Posted by Mornai

As for Kenny...if you go against him in the meat locker, i think he keeps his family in mind every time he leaves you for dead. When he stops and glances at the door wondering whether he should save Lee, he's probably thinking "This is the same guy who wanted my family to die so we could save that asshole Larry" or something similar. Since the only reason he wanted Larry dead was because he feared it would prevent him from saving his family, it sort of makes sense.

LOL yes back on topic. I think the Kenny-Lilly divide shows a group within the group mentality. I suppose that's always true for most groups, It's understandable, but the stubborn personalities of both Kenny and Lilly made compromise difficult and to consider what's always best for the group as a whole. Kenny thinks of his family first, and so does Lilly/Larry. If Lee wasn't burdened by his past, he might have been more forceful in acting as a glue for everyone.