Trying to be a good guy in Season Two should screw you over

[Rommel49]

Originally Posted by Mark$man

No, because being bitten still kills them. Yeah, a deer can run fast, but for how long? The dead don't get tired, they'll keep coming. And if it gets surrounded? What if it's already injured? Where would it go to escape a horde? Where will it find food?

There's no proof they die from the infection. None. That doesn't stop them from dying of blood loss or what have you. However, the fact there's no undead animals is a pretty big indication that whatever the walkers carry doesn't cross species lines.

And to reiterate, if ordinary people can outrun and evade walkers, there's no way something like a deer couldn't. It doesn't matter if walkers don't get tired when their target's moving atleast ten times faster than they can, there's literally going to be miles between them within a matter of minutes.

Persistence hunting has been done by people, is currently done by animals like hyenas, etc. the thing they have in common? They can run and actually keep up with their prey. Walkers can't, except for the aforementioned cases of tortoises and sloths.

Walkers seem fairly quiet, I've seen them sneak up on animals and humans alike. Like wtf? Where'd you come from? The walkers have caught rabbits and deer before.

False. We've never seen walkers actually catch rabbits or deer. The rabbit we see being eaten at the beginning of Episode 2 was already dead, and it's implied the group were the ones that managed to catch it or bring it down "that's another meal lost"; ditto for the deer in the television show - Daryl shot that deer with his crossbow (the whole bit about how he had tracked it down over a couple of days).

[CarScar]

Originally Posted by Rommel49

There's no proof they die from the infection. None. That doesn't stop them from dying of blood loss or what have you. However, the fact there's no undead animals is a pretty big indication that whatever the walkers carry doesn't cross species lines.

I'm sorry for jumping in like this, but it's more likely than not that a bite would subdue an animal. I'm sure you're already aware of this but reanimation has nothing to do with the bite so the fact that there isn't any reanimated animals in The Walking Dead universe is hardly any evidence for the argument. Furthermore, the bite just carries a deadly disease, a modern Black Plague if you will. If an animal gets hit by the Black Plague? It's dead. If it's hit by deadly radiation poisoning? It's dead. It'd be a little far fetched if animal life would be immune to the crippling disease when humans are not.

We've never seen walkers actually catch rabbits or deer. The rabbit we see being eaten at the beginning of Episode 2 was already dead, and it's implied the group were the ones that managed to catch it or bring it down "that's another meal lost"; ditto for the deer in the television show - Daryl shot that deer with his crossbow (the whole bit about how he had tracked it down over a couple of days).

Although I agree that it's quite far fetched that a walker could catch a fast moving target, I do believe Telltale displayed the rabbit's death in a way that suggests that the walker killed it.

"Shit, what did they get this time?"
"A rabbit."

I don't believe Mark would ask such a question if they were the one that killed it. That's assuming they didn't lay down some traps (meaning they wouldn't know what they caught until they checked the trap), although I don't see any nearby nor is there any evidence to suggest such a claim. Mark's statement that it's another meal lost seemed to say, too me at least, that he was more so like "damn, that's another meal we could have killed and eaten!"

As to how a walker could catch a critter? That's a little fishy. One obvious one is if the animal was injured. Another possibility is if a lurker caught a critter off guard, although it's still a little strange due to the uncanny habit of animals to have amazing senses, it is also certainly not unbelievable.

[Rommel49]

Originally Posted by CarScar

I'm sorry for jumping in like this, but it's more likely than not that a bite would subdue an animal. I'm sure you're already aware of this but reanimation has nothing to do with the bite so the fact that there isn't any reanimated animals in The Walking Dead universe is hardly any evidence for the argument. Furthermore, the bite just carries a deadly disease, a modern Black Plague if you will. If an animal gets hit by the Black Plague? It's dead. If it's hit by deadly radiation poisoning? It's dead. It'd be a little far fetched if animal life would be immune to the crippling disease when humans are not.

Actually, animals tended to be the carriers of the black plague, that kinda prevented it from killing them. Hell, Komodo Dragons are a good example of such (they're teeming with bacteria since they eat rotten, diseased meat).

It's not actually all that regular for things like viruses to cross species barriers, simply because they've tailored themselves to infect a given group (e.g. birds). It seems to be quite a bit more common for animals to transmit diseases to people rather than receive them from people.

Additionally, while Bites don't cause reanimation in and of themselves, a person's bites also don't become lethal to others until after that person reanimates. On the same vein, the only things we've seen die via bites (atleast where obvious things like blood loss weren't a factor) are creatures capable of reanimating (i.e. people).

In short, while walker bites don't cause reanimation, all of the available evidence shows us that reanimation or its potential has a lot to do with the ability to generate/be susceptible to bites.

Although I agree that it's quite far fetched that a walker could catch a fast moving target, I do believe Telltale displayed the rabbit's death in a way that suggests that the walker killed it.

"Shit, what did they get this time?"
"A rabbit."

I don't believe Mark would ask such a question if they were the one that killed it. That's assuming they didn't lay down some traps (meaning they wouldn't know what they caught until they checked the trap), although I don't see any nearby nor is there any evidence to suggest such a claim. Mark's statement that it's another meal lost seemed to say, too me at least, that he was more so like "damn, that's another meal we could have killed and eaten!"

As to how a walker could catch a critter? That's a little fishy. One obvious one is if the animal was injured. Another possibility is if a lurker caught a critter off guard, although it's still a little strange due to the uncanny habit of animals to have amazing senses, it is also certainly not unbelievable.

I figured that the rabbit had been caught in a snare, myself (being a trap, it kinda should be hard to detect it). And anyone in that scenario would (or atleast damn well should) be supplementing active hunting with trapping. Ditto for the fact that Lee and Mark knew where to go to find it (and they were hardly the world's best hunters).

Regardless, we don't know how that rabbit ended up dead, and considering the beginning of episode 2 is the episode that brings us walkers that move more slowly than blue-haired old ladies... like you said, it's a little fishy.

[Mark$man]

Originally Posted by Rommel49

There's no proof they die from the infection. None. That doesn't stop them from dying of blood loss or what have you. However, the fact there's no undead animals is a pretty big indication that whatever the walkers carry doesn't cross species lines.

And to reiterate, if ordinary people can outrun and evade walkers, there's no way something like a deer couldn't. It doesn't matter if walkers don't get tired when their target's moving atleast ten times faster than they can, there's literally going to be miles between them within a matter of minutes.

Persistence hunting has been done by people, is currently done by animals like hyenas, etc. the thing they have in common? They can run and actually keep up with their prey. Walkers can't, except for the aforementioned cases of tortoises and sloths.

False. We've never seen walkers actually catch rabbits or deer. The rabbit we see being eaten at the beginning of Episode 2 was already dead, and it's implied the group were the ones that managed to catch it or bring it down "that's another meal lost"; ditto for the deer in the television show - Daryl shot that deer with his crossbow (the whole bit about how he had tracked it down over a couple of days).

People sometimes have to use guns to escape, and I can't see a deer using an AK. Actually, what is inside them is pretty obvious is can kill them to. The bite is just as deadly for them. The only difference is they don't turn, but you have no idea if they are infected or not. Something could be keeping them from turning for all we know.

What is the point of outrunning a horde if another is still after you and you are exhausted? Humans get away by climbing trees, taking high ground, or going underground. Can the deer do that? Lol

[FarmerJoe]

I thought Telltale did a good job with the morally grey choices in season 1 and I hope to see more in season 2.I for one liked the fact that the right or wrong choices weren't blatantly obvious and how your choices would affect other group members opinions of Lee,which means they don't all hero worship the protagonist(or don't even bat an eyelid?!)no matter what he/she does "cough" Mass Effect "cough".

Far cry 3 is a great game but it disappointed me in the way it reinforces the good/bad way you should act or karma will punish you. I hope Telltale continues to allow the player to decide for themselves what they feel should be the right or wrong way to act and that they shouldn't be necessarily punished/rewarded for choosing the morally acceptable bad/good choice. I found The Walking Dead refreshing because I felt it allowed the individual player to rationalize the choices they made for themselves without the usual ego massaging of the player,as other games do, or the game rewarding/punishing the player by deciding what is the right or wrong to act.

The good shouldn't always be rewarded and the bad shouldn't always be punished, and vice versa.Similar to how the real world works...

[Rommel49]

Originally Posted by Mark$man

People sometimes have to use guns to escape, and I can't see a deer using an AK. Actually, what is inside them is pretty obvious is can kill them to. The bite is just as deadly for them. The only difference is they don't turn, but you have no idea if they are infected or not. Something could be keeping them from turning for all we know.

What is the point of outrunning a horde if another is still after you and you are exhausted? Humans get away by climbing trees, taking high ground, or going underground. Can the deer do that? Lol

Show me a single animal that's died as a result of the infection in walker bites, just one. Don't bother, because you won't find it. That's a pretty big clue that whatever infection walker bites carry can't cross species lines.

Again, persistance hunting only works if they can keep up with their food. They can't. A good, brisk walking pace (i.e. faster than walkers) is about 3 MPH, a deer moves over 30 MPH. At that rate, even if they could track it without error (which is disproven as a possibility by nearly every case people escape walkers) they have to keep moving for a full ten hours to catch up... one could literally get a good night's sleep, take a shower, eat breakfast and be off again and the walkers still wouldn't have caught up, the speed difference is that huge... that completely excludes dying of exhaustion as a possibility. As the old saying goes "speed is armor".

Even worse, pretty much no living thing walks or runs in a perfectly straight line over distance. Hell, even human beings have trouble doing it when they want to unless they have a point of reference (such as a road or sidewalk) since they naturally favor their dominant side (which ultimately results in people walking in circles). As soon as a walker's target is out of the line of sight, the best they can do is follow the direction it was going, not the direction it is going.

[Mark$man]

Originally Posted by Rommel49

Show me a single animal that's died as a result of the infection in walker bites, just one. Don't bother, because you won't find it. That's a pretty big clue that whatever infection walker bites carry can't cross species lines.

Again, persistance hunting only works if they can keep up with their food. They can't. A good, brisk walking pace (i.e. faster than walkers) is about 3 MPH, a deer moves over 30 MPH. At that rate, even if they could track it without error (which is disproven as a possibility by nearly every case people escape walkers) they have to keep moving for a full ten hours to catch up... one could literally get a good night's sleep, take a shower, eat breakfast and be off again and the walkers still wouldn't have caught up, the speed difference is that huge... that completely excludes dying of exhaustion as a possibility. As the old saying goes "speed is armor".

Even worse, pretty much no living thing walks or runs in a perfectly straight line over distance. Hell, even human beings have trouble doing it when they want to unless they have a point of reference (such as a road or sidewalk) since they naturally favor their dominant side (which ultimately results in people walking in circles). As soon as a walker's target is out of the line of sight, the best they can do is follow the direction it was going, not the direction it is going.

It's kind of hard to argue since neither of us know. You can argue you never see an animal die of the bite, but that can also be used on my side, that since you never see a dead animal of a bite, it's safe to assume if they get bitten they died and were eaten to pieces. I do know that the walkers can rely on smell, sight, and hearing more than a human, and more than some animals. A walker that Carl found made it's way through the swamp, found it's way to the farm, and killed Dale. That happened simply because it saw Carl, and basically tracked him. And walkers aren't living, as much as that counts for

It doesn't matter if they can't keep up with their food, they don't get tired, they don't stop their searching, and they don't die of lack of food. They'll keep chase until they find you or something else attracts them. It doesn't even matter if they get distracted, zombies travel IN HORDES. Outrun thousands, it doesn't matter, if you can't find a safe place to hide to sleep or find food without coming into contact with more walkers, you are going to get torn apart. Even most humans couldn't last against them.

Either way now, we don't have the information required to win in favor of either side. So I'm gonna drop it now okay? Okay xD

[Robert Morgan]

Originally Posted by Rommel49

Show me a single animal that's died as a result of the infection in walker bites, just one. Don't bother, because you won't find it. That's a pretty big clue that whatever infection walker bites carry can't cross species lines.

Again, persistance hunting only works if they can keep up with their food. They can't. A good, brisk walking pace (i.e. faster than walkers) is about 3 MPH, a deer moves over 30 MPH. At that rate, even if they could track it without error (which is disproven as a possibility by nearly every case people escape walkers) they have to keep moving for a full ten hours to catch up... one could literally get a good night's sleep, take a shower, eat breakfast and be off again and the walkers still wouldn't have caught up, the speed difference is that huge... that completely excludes dying of exhaustion as a possibility. As the old saying goes "speed is armor".

I think it's just further evidence of how deeply misanthropic Robert Kirkman's creation is when the animals seem to do a decent job of avoiding walkers, and yet the humans can't get their act together long enough to wipe out an enemy that's so intensely stupid.

[Mornai]

Originally Posted by Robert Morgan

I think it's just further evidence of how deeply misanthropic Robert Kirkman's creation is when the animals seem to do a decent job of avoiding walkers, and yet the humans can't get their act together long enough to wipe out an enemy that's so intensely stupid.

I think it's just a numbers game. No matter how many you kill, outwit, avoid etc. there will always be more, and they will always be everywhere you go. Every city, town, and eventually every forest, countryside, hilltop, beach etc. they will always be there, waiting.

Get enough people to ram their heads into a door and they'll eventually get through.

[Marumochi]

Originally Posted by vivec

For example: Shooting girl in street but having consuequences you can shoot the girl and still get a lot of supplies, or meat locker situation where if you save larry , lilly gets bitten.

No it shouldn't because then it would justify taking the immoral path at every critical decision and sometimes being a selfish prick just isn't going to work out for you. Sometimes being the selfless good guy isn't either. The beauty of a game like TWD is in the unpredictability of our choices when faced with a dilemma. Some of us vote with our hearts. Some of us with our heads. If we were all lead to believe that being the good guy is never the way to go, the freedom of choice is not there. And honestly, I don't wanna be an asshole to everyone because that's just not me.

[Mark$man]

Originally Posted by Mornai

I think it's just a numbers game. No matter how many you kill, outwit, avoid etc. there will always be more, and they will always be everywhere you go. Every city, town, and eventually every forest, countryside, hilltop, beach etc. they will always be there, waiting.

Get enough people to ram their heads into a door and they'll eventually get through.

That was one of my points :P

[Rommel49]

Originally Posted by Robert Morgan

I think it's just further evidence of how deeply misanthropic Robert Kirkman's creation is when the animals seem to do a decent job of avoiding walkers, and yet the humans can't get their act together long enough to wipe out an enemy that's so intensely stupid.

Basically. It's not necessarily out of line, though. As I've mentioned in this thread, people got to the top of the food chain due to being able to use tools. Our ancestors didn't run down sabre-toothed cats or mammoths and strangle them with their bare hands.

At the end of the day, walkers are just people that lost the exact thing that got us to the top of the food chain in the first place.

Originally Posted by Mornai

I think it's just a numbers game. No matter how many you kill, outwit, avoid etc. there will always be more, and they will always be everywhere you go. Every city, town, and eventually every forest, countryside, hilltop, beach etc. they will always be there, waiting.

Get enough people to ram their heads into a door and they'll eventually get through.

It depends on the door. Thermopylae is a good example of the fact that numbers aren't everything if you can't leverage them, and unlike the Persians, walkers wouldn't bother with advanced tactics like "go around and hit the rear" if their target's directly in front of them. With any decently strong chokepoint, walkers would just end up crushing each other as they tried to advance. Think of it as a smellier, more organized soccer riot.

[GREYxDUZxKRUSH]

When Lee/Mark are clearing the fence at the dairy you clearly see a crow eating a walker. Its seems fine. Lots of animals eat dead decaying things. That maybe why IT doesnt effect animals. Different immune system or somthing to that effect. Just a thought.

[Mark$man]

You don't see the crow afterwards though. You just don't know.

[Wrighty]

Overall you can make decisions with youre heart for the whole of season 1 and not get penalised by it. Spared the St Johns? No problem you will never see them again anyway. Refused to kill Larry? Kenny will do it for you! I would love to see there be an element of actual risk to what you do. If people didnt take the food from the car in episode 2, maybe someone could starve in season 3. Maybe the St Johns could come back and kill someone? Maybe Clem gets wounded if you take her to a base filled with armed men. Adding consequences could force players to actually use their brain while playing.

That said there also has to be a element of randomness to the choices as well. With some choices you can get away with playing a good guy and others you cant. If TellTale could make something like this for Season 2, it would be spectacular

[Rommel49]

Originally Posted by Mark$man

You don't see the crow afterwards though. You just don't know.

Appeal to ignorance, that line of thought is logically bunk. That was hardly the first walker that died on the fence, and it's not like that was the only crow in the world, it only left because Mark and Lee disturbed it. It could've been snacking on that walker all day.

We see plenty of dead walkers around the fence, but not a single dead scavenger. We see scavengers eating walkers on the fence. If eating walkers killed them, the place would be littered with dead scavengers. It's been demonstrated that eating walkers doesn't kill them.

So all walkers will be crow poop.

[Mark$man]

Originally Posted by Rommel49

Appeal to ignorance, that line of thought is logically bunk. That was hardly the first walker that died on the fence, and it's not like that was the only crow in the world, it only left because Mark and Lee disturbed it. It could've been snacking on that walker all day.

We see plenty of dead walkers around the fence, but not a single dead scavenger. We see scavengers eating walkers on the fence. If eating walkers killed them, the place would be littered with dead scavengers. It's been demonstrated that eating walkers doesn't kill them.

So all walkers will be crow poop.

Would they? If a crow starts eating a corpse, it won't stay there forever. They could go off and die somewhere else, or go after another walker and get torn to shreds. You may also not be seeing many because there isn't many left. You say I appeal to ignorance, but wouldn't you qualify for the same? Both of us know little enough to be basing our opinions. The group doesn't take count of animal populations, nor do they stalk them. If that was the case, then if the group were to kill an animal and eat it high chances are they'd die, right? Because the tainted meat doesn't harm the animal, but can kill the human, which it CAN, because if you would read the comics, bandits capture one of Rick's group and eats his legs, after realizing he was infected, they tried to gag/throw up. Seriously, then that would mean humans could no longer eat animals, fish, or birds because they'd be 'tainted' by the walker meat. It'd be too high of a risk. Where are the bugs? Why are there little to no bugs on walkers? Or at all, really? It's Georgia, where are the mosquitoes? The flies? All the nasty bugs that feed off blood or rancid meat. If a mosquito was to get blood from a walker and wasn't affected, and then got blood from a human, wouldn't the human get infected and die? You don't know ANYTHING about a zombie apocalypse, and TWD doesn't go into full details. You can assume whatever you want, be unsure of anything, because in TWD world, people just become natural badasses.

I could be ignorant, but then so are you because you have little information to go on. Sure, go on a DIFFERENT site for the details, but the true fact is it's NOT the walking dead zombie plague. So neither of us can get anywhere from the information we have, so I'd rather just drop the conversation considering this forum has nothing to do with this, and that your points are defensible as are mine, so neither of us has the edge. If Telltale or Kirkman were to show the nature of the disease, then show it to me, and I'll back up your claims. Until then, what you say is as much bullshit as my claims without evidence. All that would remain is which is more logical, but in TWD universe, nothing is. People take multiple bullets and keep walking, get surrounded but make it through the horde unscathed, get ripped apart by bare hands, and can get clean headshots every time from long distance. Take NOTHING for granted.

[Rommel49]

Originally Posted by Mark$man

Would they? If a crow starts eating a corpse, it won't stay there forever. They could go off and die somewhere else, or go after another walker and get torn to shreds. You may also not be seeing many because there isn't many left. You say I appeal to ignorance, but wouldn't you qualify for the same? Both of us know little enough to be basing our opinions. The group doesn't take count of animal populations, nor do they stalk them. If that was the case, then if the group were to kill an animal and eat it high chances are they'd die, right? Because the tainted meat doesn't harm the animal, but can kill the human, which it CAN, because if you would read the comics, bandits capture one of Rick's group and eats his legs, after realizing he was infected, they tried to gag/throw up. Seriously, then that would mean humans could no longer eat animals, fish, or birds because they'd be 'tainted' by the walker meat. It'd be too high of a risk. Where are the bugs? Why are there little to no bugs on walkers? Or at all, really? It's Georgia, where are the mosquitoes? The flies? All the nasty bugs that feed off blood or rancid meat. If a mosquito was to get blood from a walker and wasn't affected, and then got blood from a human, wouldn't the human get infected and die? You don't know ANYTHING about a zombie apocalypse, and TWD doesn't go into full details. You can assume whatever you want, be unsure of anything, because in TWD world, people just become natural badasses.

I could be ignorant, but then so are you because you have little information to go on. Sure, go on a DIFFERENT site for the details, but the true fact is it's NOT the walking dead zombie plague. So neither of us can get anywhere from the information we have, so I'd rather just drop the conversation considering this forum has nothing to do with this, and that your points are defensible as are mine, so neither of us has the edge. If Telltale or Kirkman were to show the nature of the disease, then show it to me, and I'll back up your claims. Until then, what you say is as much bullshit as my claims without evidence. All that would remain is which is more logical, but in TWD universe, nothing is. People take multiple bullets and keep walking, get surrounded but make it through the horde unscathed, get ripped apart by bare hands, and can get clean headshots every time from long distance. Take NOTHING for granted.

That's a pretty big wall of text for not contesting the point or providing evidence.

Animals tend to stay proximal to their food. We know crows eat them, but we don't see a single dead crow. We see living ones though. Facts.

We know animals are immune to the major component of the outbreak; they don't reanimate. Fact. By default, that's infinitely more evidence they're immune to the outbreak than not... simply because there's zero evidence showing they're vulnerable to it.

Hell, as far as I know, it hasn't even been actually shown that people would die from eating walkers or the infected. We never actually see somebody reanimate as a result of eating a dead or bitten person.

[Mark$man]

Originally Posted by Rommel49

That's a pretty big wall of text for not contesting the point or providing evidence.

Animals tend to stay proximal to their food. We know crows eat them, but we don't see a single dead crow. We see living ones though. Facts.

We know animals are immune to the major component of the outbreak; they don't reanimate. Fact. By default, that's infinitely more evidence they're immune to the outbreak than not... simply because there's zero evidence showing they're vulnerable to it.

Hell, as far as I know, it hasn't even been actually shown that people would die from eating walkers or the infected. We never actually see somebody reanimate as a result of eating a dead or bitten person.

It is known it does for people to eat people. I'm just going to say this, if you haven't read really far into the comics, then don't read ANY FURTHER into this paragraph. *SPOLIER* *SPOILER* Dale is bitten in the leg, and is found by cannibals. They cut his legs off and ate the meat, to Dale's laughter. He then revealed he was bitten, and so the cannibals tried to choke/vomit up the food. They later died.




It's obvious they are 'immune' to turning, but it doesn't mean they don't get sick. The bite carries a type of fatal sickness. You don't know if the bite causes the turning indefinitely, only that it causes death. Turning just happens to follow suit. It wouldn't make any sense for the disease not to affect them at all. Animals usually stay in the area they find food. However, with other living/non-living predators, they really can't without risk.

[Mornai]

Originally Posted by Rommel49

It depends on the door. Thermopylae is a good example of the fact that numbers aren't everything if you can't leverage them, and unlike the Persians, walkers wouldn't bother with advanced tactics like "go around and hit the rear" if their target's directly in front of them. With any decently strong chokepoint, walkers would just end up crushing each other as they tried to advance. Think of it as a smellier, more organized soccer riot.

Maybe, but since it's pathetically easy for them to rise up anywhere at anytime, odds are they're already at the rear before the battle even begins. The walkers don't need to care about losses, as they'll always be able to gain more numbers at any location without making the slightest effort. If 3 billion walkers were storming that chokepoint at Thermopylae, eventually those defenders will get tired and be overwhelmed. A corpses stamina is limitless, a human will get tired eventually(especially if they're swinging melee weapons around for hours on end).

And for the record, i think there was a movie where zombies climbed over each over to scale a wall out of a city(though that's probably not applicable here).