A Clementine Death

[Jaded X Gamer]

Originally Posted by TJPguy

Aha, fair play! I guess I am a rare gamer who doesn't want a bright side. I want to play just one game, once, which is sad but doesn't let up at all. No happy or hopeful ending, no favourite characters pulling through... but there we go~

It's not a game, but you should check out the film series "The Human Condition". Over nine hours of every depressing thing you'd ever find in a war movie topped off with an ending that would seem utterly nihilistic if not for the fact that realistically it probably happened to countless people during the second World War.

And as for the topic at end, I was actually worried Telltale would kill off Clementine at the end of the game. Ever since the nightmare on the RV I realized it was a possibility. And since a lot of the game seems to emulate the experience of being a parent, I thought they might make you experience a parent's greatest fear, losing their child.

I voted canon death because if they were to do that, it seems like the kind of thing important enough to commit to. An optional death would feel like an elaborate game over. If they had done something like that, I'd picture it something like Clementine getting bitten instead of Lee and you have to go through the whole Duck thing with her now. And afterwards maybe there's a moment where Lee is thinking about killing himself, and he hears someone's voice over Clem's radio. Something to give him hope. Sorta like that scene in the T.V. show, but even more desperate.

[TJPguy]

Originally Posted by Mark$man

I can't say I wouldn'd be interested, but I would never let it happen. She was basically the central focus of the first season, preparing to become either a coldhearted, non-trusting badass, or be the innocent(in a sense), trusting, hopeful character, or even somewhere in-between.

And bro, that's harsh. I can't understand the point in having nothing but bad, nothing but sadness. If that was the case they'd all have committed suicide by now lol. I like how Telltale always keeps you on your toes and makes you think ahead, and how they make you like something just to rip it from your dead hands, but there has to be a limit; a line. You say that is only fairly dark, but it sounds colddddd mate lol. It would suck if everyone died, because there would be little point in playing. I don't mean a happy ending, but not an ending that everything goes wrong. It just wouldn't feel right for TWD to just keep handing out pink slips XP. I don't care if they keep slipping the rug from under my feet, but give them a fighting chance, let some people survive. Let there be hope. It's just my opinion.

Really, it's that harsh is it? Well I can see how it could be seen that way, but it's not because I'd get a kick out of it or want her to die... it really is a hard thing to explain.
(Note for all: When I came up with this and posted it, it's worth mentioning that I didn't want everyone to die... It would've needed to be quite a different plot, but I wanted different people to survive. In particular Lee. I know Clem was basically his reason to go on, but it would have been so interesting to see a season 2 plot where he would need to move on, need to deal with it and how it would affect him without him committing suicide. That would have been sad in itself, and I know other titles have done things like that successfully.
Sorry if that was a bit confusing. Everyone dying would be a bit of a bad climax. And it's cool, I like opinions

Originally Posted by Jaded X Gamer

It's not a game, but you should check out the film series "The Human Condition". Over nine hours of every depressing thing you'd ever find in a war movie topped off with an ending that would seem utterly nihilistic if not for the fact the realistically it probably happened to countless people during the second World War.

And as for the topic at end, I was actually worried Telltale would kill off Clementine at the end of the game. Ever since the nightmare on the RV I realized it was a possibility. And since a lot of the game seems to emulate the experience of being a parent, I thought they might make you experience a parent's greatest fear, losing their child.

I voted canon death because if they were to do that, it seems like the kind of thing important enough to commit to. An optional death would feel like an elaborate game over. If they had done something like that, I'd picture it something like Clementine getting bitten instead of Lee and you have to go through the whole Duck thing with her now. And afterwards maybe there's a moment where Lee is thinking about killing himself, and he hears someone's voice over Clem's radio. Something to give him hope. Sorta like that scene in the T.V. show, but even more desperate.

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll certainly look into it You've worded it very nicely, couldn't have said it better myself. A parent losing a child in a zombie apocalypse would work well in this kind of story I think.

[Mark$man]

I'd have taken Clem's hand off instantly :/ And it still would have been an interesting experience. It'd either traumatize Lee or make him SUPERDYDOOPER protective of Clementine

[dee23]

The way I see it if it was a stand alone game regardless of who died out of Lee or Clementine it would have had a hopeless ending anyway. Clementine being in the wilderness by herself and seeing 2 figures in the distance is no more hopeful for a stand alone game ending than it would be if Lee was the last survivor since the people in the distance could have been dangerous and we wouldn't of known the fate of the other characters.

I think the game would of been more effective if Clementine was killed instead of Lee simply because that would have sucker punched us as no one would have expected it. When I played episode 1 I expected Clementine to be the last survivor because she was alone on the chapter select screen for "no time left". It would have shocked everyone if Clementine died and would of shown much more bravery from Telltale to have gone that route. Telltale were going for shock effect and they wanted to do what others fear doing, killing the protagonist.

Children die in the walking dead when they have the protection of adults how much more vulnerable should Clementine of been when she was separated from the group?

Throughout the 5 episodes Lee had fought and wrestled with zombies at close range and come away unscaved. I think it would have been far more realistic for Clementine to have come to harm and died when she ran off than for Lee to get bitten by a zombie behind a dumpster.

Telltale were going for realism, proving no one is safe in that world but they contradict themselves by keeping alive the most vulnerable character. A 9 year old girl travelling through a zombie filled city by herself. Clementine surviving gives the game a happy ending. The character we cared for the most survives so we are happy. If the walking dead game was a stand alone game that wasn't going to have a second season It would have had an ending that appeased the players at the expense of realism. Even the tv show had the balls to kill of a kid when they killed off Sophia. Sophia's death was realistic because she was on her own without the protection of the group.

Telltale were scared to even touch Clementine. Occaisionally her feelings got hurt but that was it after episode 1 when she hurt her finger. When you think about what the children go through in the walking dead comics. Ben, a 5 year mutilates his twin brother Billy with a bowen knife because he becomes mentally ill and thinks his brother will come back to life because he didn't harm his brain. A 9 year old Carl shoots the 5 year old Ben in his face because Carl see's him as a threat to the group and knows that none of the adults would be able to kill a child. Months before that, 8 year old Carl is shot in his shoulder blade and months after the Ben incident he is shot in his face, losing his eye. Oh and I forgot to add that months before that Carl was nearly gang raped by a group of bandits. This is the world of the walking dead, yet nothing happens to Clementine throughout the adventure, in a world of paedophiles , rapist and sociopaths. I'm not saying that I wanted anything to happen to her but if she is to run off and be separated from the group wouldn't it be realistic that she came to some harm?

[ZeroShoot]

Before anyone starts hating me, please read the post to the end, thanks.
I see it that way:
It should depend on how the player plays, if I take good care of her overall, not only depending on 1 decision, but depending on hours of decisions, she will live, and if I don't she dies, if I teach her to never loose hope, to stay focused, careful, and to be ready to pull the trigger if necessary, she'll obviously make it, if for example she runs off once again, and I don't tell her, that she should always have backup in dangerous situations, and should observe her surrounding before just entering, but simply tell her "great job" instead of "you did good, but be more careful next time" she won't learn, to be careful, which will get her killed in the ending.

I simply want a non-canon ending, I want my choices to matter, and I want her to live, but only if I take good care of her, and educate her well. So that the "survival training" we had with her would matter, and the last words from Lee etc.

/edit: If they can't make it depending on choices, I'd rather have a canon Clementine alive ending, than a Clementine dead ending. Seriously TellTale, please don't kill her. I said please....

[Rizefall]

Originally Posted by ZeroShoot

Before anyone starts hating me, please read the post to the end, thanks.
I see it that way:
It should depend on how the player plays, if I take good care of her overall, not only depending on 1 decision, but depending on hours of decisions, she will live, and if I don't she dies, if I teach her to never loose hope, to stay focused, careful, and to be ready to pull the trigger if necessary, she'll obviously make it, if for example she runs off once again, and I don't tell her, that she should always have backup in dangerous situations, and should observe her surrounding before just entering, but simply tell her "great job" instead of "you did good, but be more careful next time" she won't learn, to be careful, which will get her killed in the ending.

I simply want a non-canon ending, I want my choices to matter, and I want her to live, but only if I take good care of her, and educate her well. So that the "survival training" we had with her would matter, and the last words from Lee etc.

/edit: If they can't make it depending on choices, I'd rather have a canon Clementine alive ending, than a Clementine dead ending. Seriously TellTale, please don't kill her. I said please....

I agree with this. My.. "Problem" with the game was that your freedom was kinda limited and your "choice did not matter".

Even though they might matter in Season 2. The problem with all this is that if i for some reason did not learn Clem how to shoot. In the scenarios that she DID shoot, what would happen otherwise?

[Mornai]

Originally Posted by Rizefall

I agree with this. My.. "Problem" with the game was that your freedom was kinda limited and your "choice did not matter".

Even though they might matter in Season 2. The problem with all this is that if i for some reason did not learn Clem how to shoot. In the scenarios that she DID shoot, what would happen otherwise?

I don't think it's possible to not teach her how to shoot, so that probably wouldn't be an issue.

[amigosolitario]

Yo vote que viva la pequeña. Te soy honesto. A veces quisiera que Clementine hubiera muerto, porque la razón es muy simple hay muchos enfermos aquí y afuera poniendo temas de personas enfermas me hacen enojar mucho, una cosa es un juego y otra es estar pensado como lastimar a una persona, si piensan de ese modo que te hacen creer que realmente en la vida real son capaces de lastimar a una niña de verdad, tal vez de donde soy estemos bastante atrasados pero si tenemos mucho más conciencia de las cosas (sin ofender), pero sé que existen personas que darían todo por ella si en algún momento este apocalipsis se volviera realidad.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<I vote the small living. I'm honest. Sometimes I wish that Clementine had died, because the reason is very simple there are many sick people here and putting out issues of sick people make me very angry, one thing is a game and the other is to be thought of as hurt a person, if they think that so do you really believe that in real life are capable of hurting a child really, maybe where I'm quite late but we have a lot more aware of things (no offense), but I know that there are people who would everything for her if at any time this apocalypse come true.

[Rizefall]

Originally Posted by Mornai

I don't think it's possible to not teach her how to shoot, so that probably wouldn't be an issue.

It was just an example of what i mentioned earlier. The game is not as "free" as it first seems. You only have minor effect on the story, if someone dies, another lives. Game is quite simple.

[ZeroShoot]

Originally Posted by Mornai

I don't think it's possible to not teach her how to shoot, so that probably wouldn't be an issue.

Originally Posted by Rizefall

It was just an example of what i mentioned earlier. The game is not as "free" as it first seems. You only have minor effect on the story, if someone dies, another lives. Game is quite simple.

Yup, that's what I mean, you have to teach her how to shoot, disregarding how you feel about it, Chuck talked some sense into you, he made you listen to reason, but you were not given the choice to accept or decline his advice. I thought yeah, she definitely should learn to shoot, but I can imagine some people still thought, that she is a little girl, and she shouldn't use guns, but they weren't free to just... not teach her, but if they made a decision where you could choose, whether or not to teach her how to shoot, and then depending on that choice, they could have made different endings or scenes here and there. For example: if you brought her to Crawford and taught her how to shoot, she saves Molly, if you brought her, but never taught her how to handle a gun, she can't pull the trigger. Little thing, but big meaning, as that means she wouldn't be able to kill the stranger either if Lee fails to defeat him, and perhaps she won't be able to survive on her own out there without Lee. I hope such things will be featured in S2, that it is up to us to really prepare her, and that we are given the freedom to do it our way, not a canon way, but unique ways.

[Rizefall]

Originally Posted by ZeroShoot

Yup, that's what I mean, you have to teach her how to shoot, disregarding how you feel about it, Chuck talked some sense into you, he made you listen to reason, but you were not given the choice to accept or decline his advice. I thought yeah, she definitely should learn to shoot, but I can imagine some people still thought, that she is a little girl, and she shouldn't use guns, but they weren't free to just... not teach her, but if they made a decision where you could choose, whether or not to teach her how to shoot, and then depending on that choice, they could have made different endings or scenes here and there. For example: if you brought her to Crawford and taught her how to shoot, she saves Molly, if you brought her, but never taught her how to handle a gun, she can't pull the trigger. Little thing, but big meaning, as that means she wouldn't be able to kill the stranger either if Lee fails to defeat him, and perhaps she won't be able to survive on her own out there without Lee. I hope such things will be featured in S2, that it is up to us to really prepare her, and that we are given the freedom to do it our way, not a canon way, but unique ways.

Well choice in games needs to have some boarders. If for some reason the right way to go would be to teach her how to use gun and you dont, what would happen? People would die, she might die even lee in another way. Players would not like that their choice was "the wrong one".

Again it's an interactive tv-show. I dont wanna say your choices are "small" cause they really are not, a better word would be that there is not that much freedom in what you do.

I for one thinks it's mandatory that she learns how to use a gun, but then again it would be fun to have it so you can just ignore it, lee dies and then she is out in this world and does not know how to shoot, rofl.

[Mark$man]

Well I think you can not cut her hair. Then maybe it be her downfall along the series lol

[Robert Morgan]

Canon survival for Clem. The player should be allowed to influence what kind of survivor she ultimately becomes, of course: A ruthless take-no-prisoners type like Molly, or a kind, idealistic woman who has somehow miraculously avoided being burned out by the world around her.

[GREYxDUZxKRUSH]

Originally Posted by Robert Morgan

Canon survival for Clem. The player should be allowed to influence what kind of survivor she ultimately becomes, of course: A ruthless take-no-prisoners type like Molly, or a kind, idealistic woman who has somehow miraculously avoided being burned out by the world around her.

ANYTHING that lets me feel like I made that happen I am good with.

[TJPguy]

Originally Posted by dee23

The way I see it if it was a stand alone game regardless of who (etc...)

Sorry I couldn't quote your whole post but thank you, it made a lot of sense. You (I'm not sure if someone before has said so as well) are definitely right with the sucker punching us with the unexpected. I've come to realise more and more that along with my desire to see such a sad ending, the desire for someone to push the boundary so much that a child (and Clementine at that) would die is another reason I want to see it. Children shouldn't be untouchable by an apocalypse and those who think they should clearly don't want the realism an apocalyptic game should have. I suppose two children did die in this game, but notice how they were both male, one was a walker anyway and the other was your typical annoying kid (well that's what I thought at least) that stuck more to the sidelines. Apparently all you have to be is a cute daughterly girl and you've survived an apocalypse.

We know it has been done and can be done well. If you've seen the Dead Island trailer and how it has been praised by most as one of the best game trailers ever made you can see that. Plus the girls in the TV series... and the one at the beginning of Dawn of the Dead. It just hasn't been done with a girl we've grown very attached to. Well, possibly with the exception of Sophia, depending how you see her.

I'm probably just echoing what you're saying now so I'll end there, but yeah your entire post words it nicely and I'm glad you've said it, thanks again!

Originally Posted by ZeroShoot

Before anyone starts hating me, please read the post to the end, thanks.
I see it that way:
It should depend on how the player plays, if I take good care of her overall, not only depending on 1 decision, but depending on hours of decisions, she will live, and if I don't she dies, if I teach her to never loose hope, to stay focused, careful, and to be ready to pull the trigger if necessary, she'll obviously make it, if for example she runs off once again, and I don't tell her, that she should always have backup in dangerous situations, and should observe her surrounding before just entering, but simply tell her "great job" instead of "you did good, but be more careful next time" she won't learn, to be careful, which will get her killed in the ending.

I simply want a non-canon ending, I want my choices to matter, and I want her to live, but only if I take good care of her, and educate her well. So that the "survival training" we had with her would matter, and the last words from Lee etc.

/edit: If they can't make it depending on choices, I'd rather have a canon Clementine alive ending, than a Clementine dead ending. Seriously TellTale, please don't kill her. I said please....

That would be an awesome method yeah. I'm under no illusions that what I want to see is extremely unwanted and would cause outrage. But if you act like the worst guardian ever, you should be able to see the consequences of it, absolutely.
Plus I would want a non-canon ending to be made with the same genius and attention that that canon one had, rather than it being just a cheap 10 second 'game over - you did it wrong and Clementine is dead' kind of ending. One that would still cause the credits to roll and such.

Originally Posted by ZeroShoot

Yup, that's what I mean, you have to teach her how to shoot, disregarding how you feel about it, Chuck talked some sense into you, he made you listen to reason, but you were not given the choice to accept or decline his advice. I thought yeah, she definitely should learn to shoot, but I can imagine some people still thought, that she is a little girl, and she shouldn't use guns, but they weren't free to just... not teach her, but if they made a decision where you could choose, whether or not to teach her how to shoot, and then depending on that choice, they could have made different endings or scenes here and there. For example: if you brought her to Crawford and taught her how to shoot, she saves Molly, if you brought her, but never taught her how to handle a gun, she can't pull the trigger. Little thing, but big meaning, as that means she wouldn't be able to kill the stranger either if Lee fails to defeat him, and perhaps she won't be able to survive on her own out there without Lee. I hope such things will be featured in S2, that it is up to us to really prepare her, and that we are given the freedom to do it our way, not a canon way, but unique ways.

I can see the problems with too many drastic plot changing choices from a development view. It reminds me of what I read about Mass Effect, where they've had to script thousands of different alternates because you have so much choice in the game. But yeah, one major decision point in the game that would effect just the ending would have been perfect like you say. Plus it would make a lot of sense, and make someone like me who wants a controversial unpopular ending happy. It usually sucks to be on the severely unpopular side of things eh Although the poll coming close to 50/50 has given me a lot of faith in my view.

[Supporter of Lilly]

I say if it does come down to it you have the choice to kill her or save her

[Magic Emperor]

If she dies, can I sing "Oh my Darling Clementine" without looking trollish?

[michikade]

If Clem were to have died in Season 1, I would have gone from playing Lee as a generally good guy who occasionally had to make tough choices, but with a moral center in the form of an 8/9 year old girl, to not giving any kind of a f*ck anymore, loose cannon psychopath. Because the only time I felt bad about a decision I made was when I saw a look of terror or disappointment on her little face. Clementine was what kept my Lee human. Now, in Season 2, I suppose I'd be okay with the idea of Clem having to die or having the option to die, because I don't know relationships would play out or what kind of role in the whole game she'd play.

[Ninnuendo]

Not only should she die but in my view she has to. From a logical standpoint, the longer she's around the less effective she will become and in terms of story, logically she can't survive. The only question really is whether Telltale have the bawls to kill her off and the confidence to follow up with something equally strong. I have my doubts.

Personally I think it would be worth her dying just to see the reaction.

EDIT

In a sense I think she's restraining the story, maybe in a good way. What I'd love though is Season 2 starting, just settling back into the game and then BANG! She dies in the first 10 minutes. There couldn't be a better way for Telltale to pull the rug out from under the community.

[looby]

Are you satan