Sonic the Hedgehog

[Marzhin]

I love Sonic. I'll always remember when Santa Claus brought me a Megadrive (= Genesis) for Christmas with the first Sonic. What a blast !

I still like the character, even if I don't always agree with Sega's choices. I enjoyed very much Sonic Adventure and Sonic Heroes (but not much Sonic Adventure 2, I found it was annoying to change character every level, I preferred how it worked in the first SA).

Sonic Advance 3 was brilliant (and used quite cleverly a gameplay mechanic from one of the most underrated games of all times : Knuckles Chaotix) but the emeralds were too hard to find. I loved Sonic Rush and its sequel (but I admit the sequel was not as good as the first one).

And finally I had lots of fun with Sonic and the Secret Rings and Sonic Unleashed on Wii. The hedgehog levels in Unleashed were amazing, really close to the feeling of the old 2D games. The werehog stages were OK, but all I wanted was to finish them quickly to go back to the daytime levels Sonic and the Black Knight had wonderful graphics for a Wii game, but the gameplay was a bit repetitive (and the game was really short). I still enjoyed it, but less than Secret Rings for instance

But to answer the topic's questions :

1. Sonic & Knuckles. The Sky Sanctuary zone, the final battle in space... Unforgettable !
2. I guess it's either Sonic or Knuckles. They make a good team.
3. I think not, at least not with Sonic as main character. An adventure game starring Tails could work, though. As long as they use another voice actor than in the last games...

[Ray-The-Sun]

Originally Posted by guitarsareboring

Bunnie Rabbot has an irritating voice

You didn't read the old comics. Shame on you.

[guitarsareboring]

Originally Posted by Ray-The-Sun

You didn't read the old comics. Shame on you.

Yes I did, I started from issue 3... had to really go hunting to get hold of them in the UK. She was fine in the comics but she annoys me a little bit on screen.

[Ray-The-Sun]

Originally Posted by guitarsareboring

had to really go hunting to get hold of them in the UK.

This. QFT.

[guitarsareboring]

Originally Posted by Ray-The-Sun

This. QFT.

which of these did you mean?
# "Quoted For Truth" - an acronym commonly used on internet forums.
# "Quit Fucking Trying/Talking" - also an acronym used on internet forums, mostly gaming.

[City Of Delusion]

Originally Posted by guitarsareboring

which of these did you mean?
# "Quoted For Truth" - an acronym commonly used on internet forums.
# "Quit Fucking Trying/Talking" - also an acronym used on internet forums, mostly gaming.

In most forums, QFT is the first meaning in the vast majority of cases. There's plenty of other anagrams for the second meaning.

[MusicallyInspired]

I've never heard of anything other than Quoted For Truth.

Also, the comics were awesome. I remember when the Death Egg saga comics and the Endgame Series first came out. My brother was a huge follower of them. So I got to read most of them without having to pay anything .

[Simon 123890]

I dunno who doesn't like Sonic. Sure his newer games have sucked but he's cool

[Frogacuda]

Sonic's a heartbreaker. The best of them are really on the god-tier of platform games, but once Sega realized they could put out shit and it would still sell they've been forcing underbaked games out before they're ready.

Sonic 1: Timeless classic, completely unreal in the time it was released

Sonic 2: The ultimate speed platformer. More action, breakneck pace.

Sonic 3: Broader level design, more exploration, but still amazing flow.

Sonic & Knuckles: Sonic 3 outtakes. Underwhelming and the first time Sonic went downhill.

Sonic Adventure: Pretty damned epic. I don't know if the adventure elements worked except as filler, but this did what I thought was impossible: Make Sonic really work in 3D
Sonic Adventure 2: Even better than the first SA, pure action, no filler. Even if the Tails and Knux levels aren't as good, they're still entertaining.

After this we run into problems fast...

Sonic Heroes: Garbage. It just copies and pastes level segments over and over for boring, unrefined, dragged out gameplay. Sonic's backbone has always been the level design, and it's just not here.

Shadow the Hedgehog: Not as terrible as people assume, but not a true Sonic game by any stretch. Ok.

Sonic 2006: Had a TON of potential, solid gameplay mechanics, a good approach, but it was forced out WAY before it was ready with glaring technical flaws and a general lack of polish.

Sonic Unleashed: Boils the Sonic game down to a parody of itself. Mindless speed without any depth or flow. Feels more like F-Zero than Sonic. The Werehog parts are terrible.

Sonic Rush: This and its sequel are actually surprisingly excellent. The level design is refined enough that time attack challenges are really fun and the new gameplay systems make sense. Shame the look and sound isn't quite there.

[Darth Marsden]

Originally Posted by Frogacuda

Sonic 3: Broader level design, more exploration, but still amazing flow.

Sonic & Knuckles: Sonic 3 outtakes. Underwhelming and the first time Sonic went downhill.

Sonic 2006: Had a TON of potential, solid gameplay mechanics, a good approach, but it was forced out WAY before it was ready with glaring technical flaws and a general lack of polish.

Sonic Unleashed: Boils the Sonic game down to a parody of itself. Mindless speed without any depth or flow. Feels more like F-Zero than Sonic. The Werehog parts are terrible.

Gonna have to disagree with you on these games.

Sonic & Knuckles is, literally, a part of Sonic 3. If you combine the two, you have what Sonic Team meant Sonic 3 to be in its entirety. Unfortunately, they had to meet a specific deadline, so the lock-on technology was developed as a way of letting them get around that. If you root around the bear bones of the Sonic 3 game, you can find remnants of the levels that were eventually featured in Sonic & Knuckles.

As for the game itself... I'll admit that not all of the S&K levels were perfect, but there were some real crackers as well. The Flying Battery, Lava Reef, Sky Sanctuary and Death Egg zones were all, in my opinion, great levels, and the final Doomsday boss, with it's three stages, is a suitably epic finale. Things like that are why Sonic 3 & Knuckles is one of my favourite games.

Sonic 2006 was just plain awful. If people haven't played it, then I suggest you watch the Let's Play video playthrough. You really do feel for those guys - it's just horrible. Terrible dialogue, rubbish controls, flawed game mechanics, poorly designed levels, shiver-inducing plot... there's almost no redeeming features about it whatsoever. No amount of extra development time could have saved it from being a disaster.

As for Sonic Unleashed... I'm not sure which version you played, but I'm guessing it was the PS360 version. If it was, you should give the WiiS2 one a try - it's definitely the better version, mostly because Dimps (who developed the DS Sonic Rush games you hold in such high regard) helped out with the game's design. Forgetting the God of War-rip-off Wolf-hog sections (which are also better ton the WiiS2 version), the Sonic levels harken back to an era when the character was all about speed, just running through a level without getting caught up in scenery or whacking into a wall due to awkward camera angles. Once you've run through a level once or twice and learned the general layout, it can be really relaxing just cruising through it again, drifting around corners and chaining together combos as you bounce off enemies and glide along rails.

If Sonic Team can stop developing extra characters and different gameplay systems and just focus on the day levels from SU, then I really do think that they can produce some cracking games. I think it's probably good thing that they're taking a break from proper Sonic titles for the time being through - it'll give them time to refine and get back to what made Sonic games really great. I hope.

You didn't mention the other Wii titles - Sonic and the Secret Rings & Sonic and the Black Knight. Have you tried those? If so, what did you think?

[Gman5852]

Originally Posted by Frogacuda

Sonic's a heartbreaker. The best of them are really on the god-tier of platform games, but once Sega realized they could put out crap and it would still sell they've been forcing underbaked games out before they're ready.

Sonic 1: Timeless classic, completely unreal in the time it was released

Sonic 2: The ultimate speed platformer. More action, breakneck pace.

Sonic 3: Broader level design, more exploration, but still amazing flow.

Sonic & Knuckles: Sonic 3 outtakes. Underwhelming and the first time Sonic went downhill.

Sonic Adventure: Pretty damned epic. I don't know if the adventure elements worked except as filler, but this did what I thought was impossible: Make Sonic really work in 3D
Sonic Adventure 2: Even better than the first SA, pure action, no filler. Even if the Tails and Knux levels aren't as good, they're still entertaining.

After this we run into problems fast...

Sonic Heroes: Garbage. It just copies and pastes level segments over and over for boring, unrefined, dragged out gameplay. Sonic's backbone has always been the level design, and it's just not here.

Shadow the Hedgehog: Not as terrible as people assume, but not a true Sonic game by any stretch. Ok.

Sonic 2006: Had a TON of potential, solid gameplay mechanics, a good approach, but it was forced out WAY before it was ready with glaring technical flaws and a general lack of polish.

Sonic Unleashed: Boils the Sonic game down to a parody of itself. Mindless speed without any depth or flow. Feels more like F-Zero than Sonic. The Werehog parts are terrible.

Sonic Rush: This and its sequel are actually surprisingly excellent. The level design is refined enough that time attack challenges are really fun and the new gameplay systems make sense. Shame the look and sound isn't quite there.

lets see here,
I agree when you say a game is good, but...

sonic and knuckles was fun, and you could play as someone that wasnt sonic or tails.

Although I agree sonic heros got repetitive A LOT, it was still a good game

Shadow the hedgehog, I agree pretty well too, it was a good game, but it wasnt sonic, sonic is go through the level and shadow had guns kill blah blah blah activate blah blah etc... but sega themselves said in a nintendo power interview(no clue what issue) it wasnt supposed to be a sonic game, they wanted to see if it could make it as a series on it's own.
Sonic 06 never found one glitch, the only thing I hated was when silver was a boss(that is neraly impossible for me) and eggman's design(thank god they changed it back to normal)
Sonic Unleased, I think the exact oppisite, I loved the wearhog levels(sega said he WILL be back for more and the speed challenges were fine too.
There's my review.

[Frogacuda]

Originally Posted by Darth Marsden

Gonna have to disagree with you on these games.

Sonic & Knuckles is, literally, a part of Sonic 3. If you combine the two, you have what Sonic Team meant Sonic 3 to be in its entirety.

Sonic 3 with an extra character and more paths? Sure, I guess, but I'd still rather play as Sonic than Knuckles, so I don't see what it really adds. The problem is that the actual levels in S&K range from average to bad. They should have called that game "F*** Sandopolis Zone, Let's Play Something Else."

There's something to be said for some restraint and cutting the fluff. Sonic 3 was a better game BECAUSE of what was cut, not despite it.

Terrible dialogue, rubbish controls, flawed game mechanics, poorly designed levels, shiver-inducing plot... there's almost no redeeming features about it whatsoever. No amount of extra development time could have saved it from being a disaster.

See, I don't think the game mechanics were flawed at all. It got back to Sonic basics without the gimmicks, and Shadow and Silver, while different than Sonic, were both action-oriented characters who didn't need to collect crap or fish or whatever. They were still racing for the goal. The plot/dialog has been terrible ever since they first started trying to give Sonic a plot, but that doesn't matter.

As for Sonic Unleashed... I'm not sure which version you played, but I'm guessing it was the PS360 version. If it was, you should give the WiiS2 one a try - it's definitely the better version, mostly because Dimps (who developed the DS Sonic Rush games you hold in such high regard) helped out with the game's design.

I've played both, and I feel they both suffer from that "Hold up the whole level, go a million miles an hour" thing that was never really what playing Sonic was all about.

I mean sure, in Sonic Adventure if you played well you could blaze through the whole level, but finding subtle shortcuts and keeping your momentum took some skill and problem solving, whereas in Unleashed it really became a trite excercise in timing. It didn't feel like a true platform game to me in either form (And yes, the Wii version is the better of the two).

the Sonic levels harken back to an era when the character was all about speed, just running through a level

But the game didn't do that for you. This exaggerated idea of "what Sonic was all about" completely ruined Sonic Advance 2. Sonic 2 did it right. Sonic Rush Adventure did it right. Unleashed did not.

I think Sonic really got wrecked when the idea of rolling became unimportant. That idea of momentum was really the revolutionary change that made the first one so special, and in Sonic Adventure 2 they took it out and even though that game was great, it was the start of the decline.

You didn't mention the other Wii titles - Sonic and the Secret Rings & Sonic and the Black Knight. Have you tried those? If so, what did you think?

Sonic and the Secret Rings is pretty alright, but again it's this exaggeration of what Sonic really was, and it feels a bit like a racing game at times. It's better than Unleashed, though.

Haven't played Black Knight. I think that game is where I finally give up on Sega.

[Rawr]

Sonic 06 wasn't bad, but I suppose in my eyes it wasn't good either. It was better than their past attempts at Sonic though. Sonic Heroes was annoying because you were controlling 3 characters instead of 1 which got tedious having to switch characters to get past certain things. Also team Chaotix and Team Rose were just awful as teams to play. Shadow The Hedgehog I just really didn't like, wasn't really like a normal Sonic game. It managed to bring the gameplay back to its Adventure days. Managed to enjoy the first 2 levels, shockingly. Yeah the level design was useless, I mean putting a speed boost right before a sharp corner which has no barriers, not clever, and that wasn't just on one level. There was some glaring glitches too, like falling through the floor. The story wasn't very good either, and the ending was so taccy it pretty much negated the entire game.

It showed that Sonic Team had finally realised what the fans wanted, nearly. Which led them onto making Unleashed. Which I found the Sonic levels to be really fun in Unleashed. The werehog levels were rubbish, and unfortunately they out numbered the Sonic levels 3:1. However managing to get the Sonic part of the game right was definitely improvement and shows that they're going in the right direction, finally.

Sonic Adventure still lives as my favourite Sonic game. The original Sonic games were awesome, don't get me wrong. However with Adventure they managed to successfully bring it into 3d, and it was amazing. Although I do admit Big's levels were beyond a pain in the arse. Still remember getting it along with my dreamcast on one birthday. Fun times. Sonic Adventure 2 was good too, although I don't think the levels were as good personally.

Havent had the pleasure of playing the Wii games though. Was waiting till I saw them both cheap. But it seems Wii games take forever to come down in price. Even though the majority of them are garbage. :x

[roberttitus]

Originally Posted by Frogacuda

See, I don't think the game mechanics were flawed at all. It got back to Sonic basics without the gimmicks, and Shadow and Silver, while different than Sonic, were both action-oriented characters who didn't need to collect crap or fish or whatever. They were still racing for the goal.

By saying this.... just this.... Every Sonic related post you made in the past & any you will ever make in the future have just become null & void.

[Frogacuda]

Look, I'm not saying it wasn't glitchy, the controls weren't unrefined, or any of that, but if they took the time to tighten it up, the foundation was there. It was getting back to the Sonic Adventure style, which really did work at one point.

[guitarsareboring]

I was playing Sonic Advance 2 last night and decided to see what would happen if I just held the right button while pressing jump randomly for an entire level. I finished the level without losing any rings or lives.

[Armakuni]

Great games but I don't like how you need to finish all the bonus stages to get the 'real' ending. That sucks.

[Gman5852]

Originally Posted by Armakuni

Great games but I don't like how you need to finish all the bonus stages to get the 'real' ending. That sucks.

They dont do taht anymore, and when they did, that added to the skill. Now they just make it so you have to beat all the story modes(or in sonic rushes/heros case, you have to beat both story modes AND bonus stages)
Plus, if you don't want the real ending, no ones there to make you play it, you can just consider the endings to be real.

[Rawr]

Meh, rather that then when you get games where you have to do annoying specific requirements to get the real ending. Like for example having to talk to a certain person at a certain time on a certain day, and if you don't you miss the ending. There's no way you can know that you have to do that without using a guide or something, it's rather stupid.

[Purple Tentacle]

Originally Posted by roberttitus

I would have to disagree on your first statement, because in my opinion the first two Sonic Adventure games had pretty good storytelling. It wasn't until they replaced the voice actors with 4kids Sonic anime dub that they really started to suck... & hard.

I personally wasn't fond of the way the story was handled in Sonic Adventure 1 and 2. I thought both had potential (Shadow's story line was pretty interesting) but I just thought it was dumbed down by the voice acting and the characters in general.

Also the 'talk to the President' bit in SA2 made me cringe

I think the short movie by Sega Animation Studio demonstrates how i'd prefer to see the story of future Sonic titles handled. See it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7QOdvxWAac

A simple storyline like Mario's works a lot better I think.

But that's just my opinion and the story isn't exactly Sonic's biggest downfall.

Truth be told they'd be a lot better if all the bugs and glitches were worked out. The most recent 3D Sonic (Sonic The Hedgehog) still wouldn't exactly be up there with the current big hitters but it'd be a lot more enjoyable to play.

It seems strange that a games company like Sega, who've been in the industry for so long, would release their biggest mascot with so many bugs and glitches within their games