Telltale Games

hansschmucker · 08/04/2009, 04:54 pm

This is not a petition. I have no interest in the Wii version other than a scientific interest in the severity of Nintendo's limitations. I don't even own a Wii or have any friends who own one (nothing but PS3s and PCs around me)

I'm just curious because looking at it from the PC & PS3 gamer's perspective it looks quite funny. 20MB? That's 10 seconds on a normal DSL connection. Why would anybody care if it took 20 second or *gosh* even a whole minute. (Just for comparison: A minor update on PS3 usually weighs in at about 50-300MB and whole games go up to 5GB).

But maybe the limits are not as strict as we think. Maybe there's a loophole. When the PC gamers were complaining about the quality of the voice recordings (still don't think it's an issue, but to each his own) one solution that was discussed were addon packs with improved voices/textures.

That would generally work for the Wii too, but at least I don't know: What exactly are the limits for WiiWare games?

Is it an installation limit for the whole game (including all updates and optional addons)? In that case there would be nothing we could do.

Is it a download limit for the whole game (including all updates and optional addons)? Well, then at least the games could be compressed with a really efficient compression, instead of one that has to be fast enough to decode in real time. Could at least allow for a little more data.

Or (now it gets interesting) does the limit only apply to MANDATORY parts of the game?
Right now I don't even know if WiiWare games allow for updates/optional components/addons, but if any of the above are allowed to exceed the 20MB limit, that could be a solution to at least solve some of the issues ToMI faces on the Wii.

nofacej · 08/04/2009, 05:08 pm

The reason for the 20MB limit is that the Wii only has 512MB of internal memory with no way to upgrade it.

DLC for Wiiware games is permitted and several games take advantage of this.

With one of the more recent firmware updates it has become possible to download VC and Wiiware titles directly to an SD or HCSD card and launch them from them too. Unfortunately in order to launch a game from the SD card you have to have enough space free on your Wii to fit the game.

hansschmucker · 08/04/2009, 05:18 pm

Can Wiiware games access the SD card directly and load additional data themselves or does the Wii always move all data to the internal memory during launch?

SHODANFreeman · 08/04/2009, 05:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hansschmucker

Can Wiiware games access the SD card directly and load additional data themselves or does the Wii always move all data to the internal memory during launch?

It always moves all data to internal memory.

hansschmucker · 08/04/2009, 05:25 pm

Dang. Are there any games that can load some data from the SD card? Like letting you listen to your own music? Or import a picture of yourself directly from the SD card?

lederjacke · 08/04/2009, 05:54 pm

You can store WiiWare on SDHC cards up to 32GB. I wonder why it should make a difference to load program data from the DVD, SD or the internal flash memory...

hplikelike · 08/04/2009, 05:56 pm

Is it possible? Probably. Would it be too expensive for a small company like Telltale. Oh yeah.

hansschmucker · 08/04/2009, 06:03 pm

Not necessarily. It depends on how the system is built. Frankly, if Nintendo had done their homework, it would be a non-issue.

Package data as an overlay (i.e. using the same filenames) to your standard installation. Done. It's really that simple. You wouldn't even have to patch your original installation to support it. That's the way it's done on other systems.

hansschmucker · 08/04/2009, 06:25 pm

(that probably sounded more hostile than I wanted it to, so here's a bit more explanation).

The thing about external storage is that it is well, external. The console maker doesn't control it. Not the speed, not the quality, not the way people mess up the filesystem and not how data is protected. And if something goes wrong, who will the users come crying to? Probably not the guy who gave him the memory card.

So, running programs from memory card can be a nightmare, so Nintendo simply didn't allow it.

So far so good. But what if you suddenly HAVE TO support it? Well, you can either rewrite your system, or you can just copy the program back to the internal storage, run it and delete it afterwards. That's apparently (I'm NOT sure about it, but that's what it sounds like) what Nintendo did. It's easy, it's secure (because you can easily verify the signature of the program while you copy it to internal memory), just slow and not very flexible.

P.S. It's good to know that there is at least some logic to what Nintendo is doing. Before, I really thought that these rules were completely arbitrary to protect people who are still using a 14.4 modem.

hplikelike · 08/04/2009, 07:12 pm

Telltale has stated on this forums that patches for PC (!!!) are expensive. (don't ask me how) Imagine for Wii... or 360...

SHODANFreeman · 08/04/2009, 07:32 pm

I just don't understand how a system that is much less powerful (PSP) can handle running games directly from an SD card, while Wii has to do this cheap-o lame quick copy crap.

jp-30 · 08/04/2009, 10:00 pm

It's 40MB, not 20, for starters.

I understand (though could be wrong) that it's the download package size, but also the size the game takes up on the Wii internal storage. You can't 'unzip' the 40 MB to take up 200MB like a PC installation. Any decompresing is done at run-time.

Some games take heaps of blocks for savegame data (especially if you're recording audio/video on a karaoke game), but they may be disc titles only, not Wiiware I'm thinking of. There may be a savegame data limit on Wiiware titles.

At least one Wiiware game has add-ons - Final Fantasy: My Life As A King.
http://wiiware.nintendolife.com/revi...life_as_a_king

Quite how that works, I don't know, nor do I know if that situation can be utilised by Telltale to, for instance, add a 'speech pack' as a separate entity to the base game which could be subtitles-only.

But considering what Telltale have done with getting everything packed into 40MB, having one lot of 40MB for the graphics, music and sound effects, and a 2nd 40 MB for the speech would likely make for a very nice experience for all.

The other consideration is that even though Wiiware titles can now be stored on the (up to 32GB) SD card, when they are played they actually copy over to the system memory. That memory is also used for some Nintendo channels, Disc based savegame data, the operating system (?) and a few other bits and pieces. So even though there's less issue with buying lots of Wiiware titles and saving them on the SD card, there is still the issue of the small internal storage (512MB) and that any Wiiware game has to take into consideration all the other things on the internal memory... which is why it's not so simple for Nintendo to up the Wiiware size limit from 40MB to 100MB.

Lachlan_is · 08/05/2009, 12:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp-30

It's 40MB, not 20, for starters.

I understand (though could be wrong) that it's the download package size, but also the size the game takes up on the Wii internal storage. You can't 'unzip' the 40 MB to take up 200MB like a PC installation. Any decompresing is done at run-time.

Some games take heaps of blocks for savegame data (especially if you're recording audio/video on a karaoke game), but they may be disc titles only, not Wiiware I'm thinking of. There may be a savegame data limit on Wiiware titles.

At least one Wiiware game has add-ons - Final Fantasy: My Life As A King.
http://wiiware.nintendolife.com/revi...life_as_a_king

Quite how that works, I don't know, nor do I know if that situation can be utilised by Telltale to, for instance, add a 'speech pack' as a separate entity to the base game which could be subtitles-only.

But considering what Telltale have done with getting everything packed into 40MB, having one lot of 40MB for the graphics, music and sound effects, and a 2nd 40 MB for the speech would likely make for a very nice experience for all.

The other consideration is that even though Wiiware titles can now be stored on the (up to 32GB) SD card, when they are played they actually copy over to the system memory. That memory is also used for some Nintendo channels, Disc based savegame data, the operating system (?) and a few other bits and pieces. So even though there's less issue with buying lots of Wiiware titles and saving them on the SD card, there is still the issue of the small internal storage (512MB) and that any Wiiware game has to take into consideration all the other things on the internal memory... which is why it's not so simple for Nintendo to up the Wiiware size limit from 40MB to 100MB.

Cant the game be split into two 500 points sections?

SHODANFreeman · 08/05/2009, 12:42 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lachlan_is

Cant the game be split into two 500 points sections?

Tons of resources are shared between the first and second half of the episode, that'd take way too much time and resources for too little benefit to quality.

jp-30 · 08/05/2009, 12:48 am

I have no idea if it's technically possible, but if you could buy the main game for 700 points and an add-on speech pack for 300 (and both could use 40MB each), that might be a possible workaround.

SHODANFreeman · 08/05/2009, 12:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp-30

I have no idea if it's technically possible, but if you could by the main game for 700 points and an add-on speech pack for 300 (and both could use 40MB each), that might be a possible workaround.

It seems to me that if Nintendo have such a stingy limit for the games themselves, the add-on content would have an even stingier limit.

hansschmucker · 08/05/2009, 04:34 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by hplikelike

Telltale has stated on this forums that patches for PC (!!!) are expensive. (don't ask me how) Imagine for Wii... or 360...

I'm pretty sure they were talking about code being patched, not necessarily the distribution.

A voice pack typically wouldn't need to patch code, just replace data files, so the usual costs and problems (QA, Certification) that you face for new releases don't apply to it. (At least they don't if the console maker has a fast-track process available in these cases).

hansschmucker · 08/05/2009, 04:41 am

Does the Wii reserve these 40MB for temp files or is that something that the user has to do manually?

jp-30 · 08/05/2009, 06:07 am

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the question. Temp files.. manual reservation...?

Do you mean will the Wii ensure there's always at least 40MB left in the system memory for an SD card transfer of a Wiiware game? No, I don't believe it does.

hansschmucker · 08/05/2009, 06:12 am

That was exactly what I meant.

Could have been the Nintendo designed the system to have a permanently reserved area for WiiWare games launched from SD and that would have meant that there was really no way to go beyond the limit. But if it is just allocated in the general storage pool, then there's no problem demanding additional storage for optional components like a speech pack.

08/04/2009, 04:54 pm	#1
hansschmucker Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 945	[Wii] Optional addons allowed for Wiiware? This is not a petition. I have no interest in the Wii version other than a scientific interest in the severity of Nintendo's limitations. I don't even own a Wii or have any friends who own one (nothing but PS3s and PCs around me) I'm just curious because looking at it from the PC & PS3 gamer's perspective it looks quite funny. 20MB? That's 10 seconds on a normal DSL connection. Why would anybody care if it took 20 second or gosh even a whole minute. (Just for comparison: A minor update on PS3 usually weighs in at about 50-300MB and whole games go up to 5GB). But maybe the limits are not as strict as we think. Maybe there's a loophole. When the PC gamers were complaining about the quality of the voice recordings (still don't think it's an issue, but to each his own) one solution that was discussed were addon packs with improved voices/textures. That would generally work for the Wii too, but at least I don't know: What exactly are the limits for WiiWare games? Is it an installation limit for the whole game (including all updates and optional addons)? In that case there would be nothing we could do. Is it a download limit for the whole game (including all updates and optional addons)? Well, then at least the games could be compressed with a really efficient compression, instead of one that has to be fast enough to decode in real time. Could at least allow for a little more data. Or (now it gets interesting) does the limit only apply to MANDATORY parts of the game? Right now I don't even know if WiiWare games allow for updates/optional components/addons, but if any of the above are allowed to exceed the 20MB limit, that could be a solution to at least solve some of the issues ToMI faces on the Wii. Last edited by hansschmucker; 08/04/2009 at 05:53 pm.

08/04/2009, 06:25 pm	#9
hansschmucker Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 945	(that probably sounded more hostile than I wanted it to, so here's a bit more explanation). The thing about external storage is that it is well, external. The console maker doesn't control it. Not the speed, not the quality, not the way people mess up the filesystem and not how data is protected. And if something goes wrong, who will the users come crying to? Probably not the guy who gave him the memory card. So, running programs from memory card can be a nightmare, so Nintendo simply didn't allow it. So far so good. But what if you suddenly HAVE TO support it? Well, you can either rewrite your system, or you can just copy the program back to the internal storage, run it and delete it afterwards. That's apparently (I'm NOT sure about it, but that's what it sounds like) what Nintendo did. It's easy, it's secure (because you can easily verify the signature of the program while you copy it to internal memory), just slow and not very flexible. P.S. It's good to know that there is at least some logic to what Nintendo is doing. Before, I really thought that these rules were completely arbitrary to protect people who are still using a 14.4 modem. Last edited by hansschmucker; 08/04/2009 at 06:27 pm.

08/05/2009, 12:48 am	#15
jp-30 Lint Miner Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: New Zealand. Posts: 2,735	I have no idea if it's technically possible, but if you could buy the main game for 700 points and an add-on speech pack for 300 (and both could use 40MB each), that might be a possible workaround. Last edited by jp-30; 08/05/2009 at 12:39 pm.

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08/04/2009, 05:08 pm	#2
nofacej Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 57	The reason for the 20MB limit is that the Wii only has 512MB of internal memory with no way to upgrade it. DLC for Wiiware games is permitted and several games take advantage of this. With one of the more recent firmware updates it has become possible to download VC and Wiiware titles directly to an SD or HCSD card and launch them from them too. Unfortunately in order to launch a game from the SD card you have to have enough space free on your Wii to fit the game.

08/04/2009, 05:18 pm	#3
hansschmucker Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 945	Can Wiiware games access the SD card directly and load additional data themselves or does the Wii always move all data to the internal memory during launch?

08/04/2009, 05:25 pm	#5
hansschmucker Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 945	Dang. Are there any games that can load some data from the SD card? Like letting you listen to your own music? Or import a picture of yourself directly from the SD card?

08/04/2009, 05:54 pm	#6
lederjacke Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 5	You can store WiiWare on SDHC cards up to 32GB. I wonder why it should make a difference to load program data from the DVD, SD or the internal flash memory...

08/04/2009, 05:56 pm	#7
hplikelike Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 555	Is it possible? Probably. Would it be too expensive for a small company like Telltale. Oh yeah.

08/04/2009, 06:03 pm	#8
hansschmucker Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 945	Not necessarily. It depends on how the system is built. Frankly, if Nintendo had done their homework, it would be a non-issue. Package data as an overlay (i.e. using the same filenames) to your standard installation. Done. It's really that simple. You wouldn't even have to patch your original installation to support it. That's the way it's done on other systems.

08/04/2009, 07:12 pm	#10
hplikelike Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 555	Telltale has stated on this forums that patches for PC (!!!) are expensive. (don't ask me how) Imagine for Wii... or 360...

08/04/2009, 07:32 pm	#11
SHODANFreeman Mute Ruler of Insects Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 3,741	I just don't understand how a system that is much less powerful (PSP) can handle running games directly from an SD card, while Wii has to do this cheap-o lame quick copy crap.

08/04/2009, 10:00 pm	#12
jp-30 Lint Miner Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: New Zealand. Posts: 2,735	It's 40MB, not 20, for starters. I understand (though could be wrong) that it's the download package size, but also the size the game takes up on the Wii internal storage. You can't 'unzip' the 40 MB to take up 200MB like a PC installation. Any decompresing is done at run-time. Some games take heaps of blocks for savegame data (especially if you're recording audio/video on a karaoke game), but they may be disc titles only, not Wiiware I'm thinking of. There may be a savegame data limit on Wiiware titles. At least one Wiiware game has add-ons - Final Fantasy: My Life As A King. http://wiiware.nintendolife.com/revi...life_as_a_king Quite how that works, I don't know, nor do I know if that situation can be utilised by Telltale to, for instance, add a 'speech pack' as a separate entity to the base game which could be subtitles-only. But considering what Telltale have done with getting everything packed into 40MB, having one lot of 40MB for the graphics, music and sound effects, and a 2nd 40 MB for the speech would likely make for a very nice experience for all. The other consideration is that even though Wiiware titles can now be stored on the (up to 32GB) SD card, when they are played they actually copy over to the system memory. That memory is also used for some Nintendo channels, Disc based savegame data, the operating system (?) and a few other bits and pieces. So even though there's less issue with buying lots of Wiiware titles and saving them on the SD card, there is still the issue of the small internal storage (512MB) and that any Wiiware game has to take into consideration all the other things on the internal memory... which is why it's not so simple for Nintendo to up the Wiiware size limit from 40MB to 100MB.

08/05/2009, 04:41 am	#18
hansschmucker Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 945	Does the Wii reserve these 40MB for temp files or is that something that the user has to do manually?

08/05/2009, 06:07 am	#19
jp-30 Lint Miner Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: New Zealand. Posts: 2,735	Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the question. Temp files.. manual reservation...? Do you mean will the Wii ensure there's always at least 40MB left in the system memory for an SD card transfer of a Wiiware game? No, I don't believe it does.

08/05/2009, 06:12 am	#20
hansschmucker Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 945	That was exactly what I meant. Could have been the Nintendo designed the system to have a permanently reserved area for WiiWare games launched from SD and that would have meant that there was really no way to go beyond the limit. But if it is just allocated in the general storage pool, then there's no problem demanding additional storage for optional components like a speech pack.