Evolution of LeChuck [Heavy Spoilers] [Go Away 56k]

[PariahKing]

I hear some people talk about how Guybrush seems to have devolved from LCR to CMI.

Really SMI/CMI/EMI is a more logical progression for Guybrush than what we currently have. I feel like almost like there are two alternate character development timelines - SMI/LCR/TMI v. SMI/CMI/EMI.

Of course I love CMI and EMI so I'm not complaining about them per se as much as I am noting there seems to be a different approach to Guybrush's character that is (not necessarily bad) symbolic in the change with his appearance.

However everyone seems to ignore LeChuck in all of this. I feel his character evolution is more awkward than Guybrush's and more confusing.

Secret of Monkey Island: Original

I really feel like LeChuck in the original SMI is not up to snuff in comparison to the later games memorable. If the series had progressed to a different villain I don't think a whole lot of people would have been heartbroken over the loss of LeChuck. Fester Shinetop is more interesting than LeChuck because...well his original sprite animation looks anything but intimidating and he never seems very scary. He doesn't live up to the big backstory they give him. He doesn't fail MISERABLY or anything and he is very enjoyable - particularly when his head explodes into a bajillion pieces - but he's not quite there all the way yet.

He is focused entirely on marrying Elaine and Guybrush is an afterthought.

LeChuck's Revenge

Suddenly Guybrush's death becomes all consuming. Elaine is NEVER mentioned by LeChuck in any particular way. LeChuck is all "murder Guybrush" all the time.


...

I'll finish this later but my point is that it's really weird how LeChuck's character seems to devolve in CMI/EMI/TMI like LCR never happened. He's back to fixating on Elaine but his character in LCR had moved on from that phase.

[kksmith]

Someone already did this:
http://home.comcast.net/~ervind/lechuck.html

[Fury]

Yeah, but by monkey island 3, 4 and 5 he's obsessed about Elaine again, so it evens out.

[DarkMatt]

It is indeed interesting how LeChuck has changed. I guess I didn't really notice myself - you pay more attention to Guybrush I guess. I personally think his LCR design is the best. CMI was a bit too cartoony and EMI made him seem less competent than ever.

[PariahKing]

Originally Posted by Fury

Yeah, but by monkey island 3, 4 and 5 he's obsessed about Elaine again, so it evens out.

Yes, but WHY? The character seems to shift and devolve from LCR with no explanation.

And I'm aware of that guy's site. S'more like visual aids to a view of the character's progression. LCR v. CMI/EMI/TMI is where I was getting at anyway.

[Lola_Minnie]

I love CMI and EMI but one of the few things I disliked was what happened to LeChuck, I prefered when he wasn't a raging idiot. To be fair, I think they ever-so-slightly picked him up a little in EMI, he had half a brain, at least, but he never went back to being what he was in the first two games.

Maybe, when it comes to SMI and LCR, LeChuck has an obsessive personality and when he latches onto something it becomes all he thinks about. In SMI, it was still Elaine, as nothing else had really come up to get in his way (his death, maybe, but he just hurdled straight over that one). When Guybrush beat him, the obsession kind of switched over, temporarily, and maybe part of it was wounded pride. That someone had the audacity to stand up to him and manage to beat him, especially someone who is so pathetic in LeChuck's eyes, just sent him into such a rage that Elaine temporarily went to the back of his mind. Killing Guybrush first was the priority. It is a tad weird that he never mentioned Elaine, and if he'd heard about Guybrush and Elaine's break-up you'd have thought he'd want to throw it in Guybrush's face.
Then after that, come CMI, he thought Guybrush was gone for good so his priorities switched back. Sure, he went back to Elaine pretty much permanently after that, but maybe he just realised that his love for Elaine was more important to him than anything else. In LCR, he was just *so* furious about being defeated, that, in that moment, nothing else mattered. After he calmed down, he went back to his original plans.

[Olaus Petrus]

So LeChuck wants to both marry Elaine and kill Guybrush. I don't see those as competing motives, especially not now when in order to get Elaine he has to get rid of her husband. In LCR his motive to kill Guybrush was understandable, after all with the help of Largo he had just managed to resurrect himself and wanted revenge because Guybrush spoiled his plans. In start of the Curse he thought that Guybrush was defeated and he returned to his original agenda to marry Elaine.

Sure they added new stuff to his background story, but still to me it seems that man has always had the same motive.

[wisp]

the point is, that there is a gap between the first two monkey island games and the rest. the first two were developed in rapid succession and mostly by the same crew. the graphics are better in mi2, but the style is mostly similar.
in curse a new team tried to continue the plot from the second game, which was hard enough, but they also changed the style.
everything became more cartoony, guybrush looked like a boy again and lechuck was no longer a bloodthirsty rotting zombie, but a loveblind fool. of course he killed more people in curse, than in the first two games, but in a funny way..

[Astro Gnocci]

I completely agree with PK's descritpion of SMI's LeChuck.
But, to Lola, i only partially agree with you. I don't think LeChuck suddenly became a complete retard in CMI, but it's true that they started to joke maybe a bit too much about him and he did start to seem more like a wanna-be-scary buffoon rather than like a truly fearsome villain. But still, even if it did hurt the character a bit, i think they got the balance right in that one : CMI was still serious and a bit spooky in its plot despite the cartoon feel, so they couldn't have the main bad guy do just anything to try and be funny.
I don't even wanna talk about EMI cause i haven't had enough coffee yet to try and be objective, but He had definitely crossed the line between "true bad guy" to "Evil Idiot" (he wasn't even the actual villain).
Can't say much about Telltale's version yet. This whole human LeChuck thing seems interesting to get something new out of him, now we just have to sit back, wait and see how this all turns out.

But overall, yeah, although i think CMI was still a great game, i'd say it it started the fall not of MI but at least of LeChuck.

Didn't Ron Gilbert state that he wasn't planning on bothering much with Elaine anymore ? Since she came back at being his main motive (LeChuck's, i mean), i wonder what Gilbert had in mind for him.

[Jazzy]

MI2 LeChuck did have some buffoon moments, bending over to pick up a coin only to have his pants ripped out by Guybrush for instance. However, he also had that whole "I'm an unstoppable killing machine" aura about him that made you tense whenever he entered a room in the tunnels at the end of the game, which made the bits like the pant stealing more a moment of respite rather than buffoonery, at least it did for me when I played the game.

[Astro Gnocci]

Well yeah, but as you said, it was more little jokes than really part of his character.

[Silverwolfpet]

LeChuck should be a part of Silent Hill! Anyone with me? *raises hand*

[PariahKing]

I'm not saying the theories in here are totally impossible or bad, I'm saying it's never explained and just glossed over.

1: Somewhat incompetent villain obsessed with Elaine
2: Obsessed, murderous monster who only cares about Guybrush
3: Slight more incompetent villian suddenly reobsessed with Elaine
4: Need to replay EMI - planning on it. My original thought was being annoyed LeChuck was such a minor element in comparison, although I did like Mandrill.
5: Opening scene reminds me of a LeChuck who looks like he's from MI2 but is more CMI like - he just kind of focuses on torturing his monkey then stabbing Guybrush and going on about Ealine and junk.

Somewhere he transitions from ruthless killer hellbent on ending Guybrush BACK to a more SMI like LeChuck with occasional to frequent flashes of "I'm very nasty, evil and I want to end Guybrush Threepwood" like the end of the carnival in CMI.

It just seems to me had he really screwed up in MI2 in CMI I don't see why he wouldn't have gone back to hunting him down and looking for Elaine.

[Purple Tentacle]

I think Lechuck lost some of his edge when he started cracking jokes in CMI. The 'slaw' scene in The Carnival of the Damned springs instantly to mind. While not a witty one liner as such it just seemed a little too silly for the Lechuck's of old.

To me he was always a serious character in SOMI and LCR with Guybrush's reaction to him being funny.

I thought he still retained some of that evil presence in CMI however, these two scenes especially:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ar16...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p9bp...eature=related

Obviously time and writers move on so personal preferences aside I still thought CMI's Lechuck was a great character. He had the right balance of comedy and evil to still be thought of as a fearsome foe.

EMI Lechuck was let down by two things. His new evil plot being to run for Governor (oooooooo...) and the fact he was working for Ozzie?...rubbish

TOMI I have to say (for me at least) is even more of a step in the wrong direction. It wasn't even so much to do with the new voice actor or even his lines.

It was the sheer lack of threat. Throughout the opening scene Lechuck pretty much just ignored Guybrush, allowing him to complete The Cursed Cutlass of Kaflu and also gave him enough time to untie Elaine had he chosen so.

Lechuck has been defeated by Guybrush on four seperate occasions and by now knows he's a threat to his plans. To ignore him like that and allow him to roam freely around Elaines ship just seemed dumb on his part. Also very un-Lechuck like.

This combined with the jolliest version of Lechuck's theme ever composed in a Monkey Island game and a lot didn't feel right about the old villain. Don't get me wrong, I love Michael Land's music but it just wasn't too fitting to what i've come to expect of Lechuck.

A few niggles with his lines (apart from the har-har-harrrs) were his almost child like insults at Guybrush "Yee be starting to get on me nerves Geekwood" seemed out of character, not something i'd expect from supposedly the most fearsome pirate in the Caribbean.

For the most part I was ok with his lines but he lacked the atmosphere and the sense of impending doom that I once used to associate with him.

[PariahKing]

You actually stole the thought right out of my brain with the slaw comment. That scene always bothers me. It's like he regressed to almost marrying a monkey.

I don't really think of LeChuck as a character who can never be funny, but mostly as one who works best when it's dark comedy.

My biggest problem with TMI LeChuck - who I actually enjoyed very much, despite wondering later why he just let me board his ship and wreck his day - is that even though nine years have passed, a human LeChuck seems like a retread of Charles L. Charles. It's not THE EXACT same thing but it's not that different. I'm also not exactly thrilled that the game after EMI which saw a less relevant LeChuck who had to share if not give up totally a lot of the spotlight to Ozzy features a LeChuck who is now apparently nice.

It's an interesting idea and everything and I like it, but my instant thought is to compare it to the last released game. Even if it was nine years ago. I'm just looking forward at this point - especially with the old zombie style LeChuck model plastered ALL OVER the TMI related stuff - seeing LeChuck mess people and things up. I guess what I'm saying is I don't want the nice charade to last longer then it should because I do think it's a cool idea. It would just really suck if it lasted until five minutes before the game ends, we get a speech and then kill him again.

[Jazzy]

Originally Posted by Purple Tentacle

I think Lechuck lost some of his edge when he started cracking jokes in CMI. The 'slaw' scene in The Carnival of the Damned springs instantly to mind. While not a witty one liner as such it just seemed a little too silly for the Lechuck's of old.

The 'slaw' scene was one of the things I didn't like about CMI, it just didn't seem to 'fit in' with the game, and seemed to be trying too hard to be funny and not succeeding.

It was the sheer lack of threat. Throughout the opening scene Lechuck pretty much just ignored Guybrush, allowing him to complete The Cursed Cutlass of Kaflu and also gave him enough time to untie Elaine had he chosen so.

Lechuck has been defeated by Guybrush on four seperate occasions and by now knows he's a threat to his plans. To ignore him like that and allow him to roam freely around Elaines ship just seemed dumb on his part. Also very un-Lechuck like.

Unless you consider that maybe LeChuck wanted Guybrush to succeed as part of a bigger plan? After all, Elaine did say that LeChuck's plans are usually more well thought out, and seems to be a common theory here. I must admit I am a bit skeptical about this theory however, as it relies on LeChuck knowing that he would smash Guybrush's root beer bottle before he can use it and then making the Root Grog Lite version instead, which is a bit of a leap in my mind, unless it wouldn't have mattered whether GB had used the original root beer or not, in which case why would LeChuck have risked stopping Guybrush in the first place? I suppose we'll find out in a few months hopefully.

[Lola_Minnie]

Originally Posted by Astro Gnocci

I completely agree with PK's descritpion of SMI's LeChuck.
But, to Lola, i only partially agree with you. I don't think LeChuck suddenly became a complete retard in CMI, but it's true that they started to joke maybe a bit too much about him and he did start to seem more like a wanna-be-scary buffoon rather than like a truly fearsome villain. But still, even if it did hurt the character a bit, i think they got the balance right in that one : CMI was still serious and a bit spooky in its plot despite the cartoon feel, so they couldn't have the main bad guy do just anything to try and be funny.
I don't even wanna talk about EMI cause i haven't had enough coffee yet to try and be objective, but He had definitely crossed the line between "true bad guy" to "Evil Idiot" (he wasn't even the actual villain).

I think my problem with him in CMI, was he just seemed so easy to beat. He had voodoo powers, but he was just so easily out-smarted (like the whole powdering-my-nose thing, Elaine used). He was more like a thug, I thought, very strong but dumb.
I didn't find anything about CMI spooky, but I thought Blood Island had great atmosphere, it did seem darker and I could see it being spookier, as did Skull Island, but it was only in the game a little bit. Like I've said, I do love CMI, it's a great game, and it's really only a couple of things that I tend to have a problem with. It didn't hinder my enjoyment of the game at all.

We'll have to agree to disagree on EMI, because I thought he seemed smarter in that one. No, he wasn't the main villain, but I accepted him working with/for Ozzie because he was doing it purely for his own benefit. He knew that if he helped Ozzie, it was a fast and easy way to get what he wanted (Elaine), in fact, it'd probably be a lot easier than if he'd tried it on his own (Ozzie was disarming pirates ridiculously fast). And the very second the plan failed, he turned on Ozzie and revealed that he already had a plan of his own. I found that, personally, more clever and conniving than CMI LeChuck.
Also, it's the only game where we got to see him kill someone. Like, proper kill, not kill-to-undead. Correct me if I'm wrong. I know that doesn't make him smarter, but crushing Ozzie made him a bit creepier to me. Probably because it was quite a gross death.

[Astro Gnocci]

I think my problem with him in CMI, was he just seemed so easy to beat. He had voodoo powers, but he was just so easily out-smarted (like the whole powdering-my-nose thing, Elaine used). He was more like a thug, I thought, very strong but dumb.
I didn't find anything about CMI spooky, but I thought Blood Island had great atmosphere, it did seem darker and I could see it being spookier, as did Skull Island, but it was only in the game a little bit. Like I've said, I do love CMI, it's a great game, and it's really only a couple of things that I tend to have a problem with. It didn't hinder my enjoyment of the game at all.

Completly agree.
I used to think that the bad guy dying TWICE in the same game was hilarious (and it is in itself), but it sure didn't help making him menacing, did it ?

We'll have to agree to disagree on EMI, because I thought he seemed smarter in that one. No, he wasn't the main villain, but I accepted him working with/for Ozzie because he was doing it purely for his own benefit. He knew that if he helped Ozzie, it was a fast and easy way to get what he wanted (Elaine), in fact, it'd probably be a lot easier than if he'd tried it on his own (Ozzie was disarming pirates ridiculously fast). And the very second the plan failed, he turned on Ozzie and revealed that he already had a plan of his own. I found that, personally, more clever and conniving than CMI LeChuck.
Also, it's the only game where we got to see him kill someone. Like, proper kill, not kill-to-undead. Correct me if I'm wrong. I know that doesn't make him smarter, but crushing Ozzie made him a bit creepier to me. Probably because it was quite a gross death.

Agree to disagree, but oh well... EMI felt so wrong as a whole to me that i can't really argue.

What's a "slaw" ?

[Lola_Minnie]

Originally Posted by Astro Gnocci

Agree to disagree, but oh well... EMI felt so wrong as a whole to me that i can't really argue.

What's a "slaw" ?

You're entitled to your opinion, it's your right to dislike the game. We'll make a magic compromise and say we're both right.

Slaw is coleslaw.

[SHODANFreeman]

I never thought Lechuck was scary, intimidating, or a threat. I thought he was a bumbling brainless thug who was hellbent on things he couldn't accomplish because he was more inept than even Guybrush.