Did Bill Tiller said too much about the ending of Monkey Island 2?

[StarEye]

I think the biggest mistake LucasArts did with the Monkey Island series, was to give it a continuing story after MI2. LucasArts could very well have made CMI a game in the Monkey Island universe, and not trying to give an explanation at all to MI2.

Personally, I think the MI series should be unrelated, considering how it's turned into. They should just give up on the whole "canon" thing, and not have a timeline for the events at all. Just have them all as individual stories, unrelated to eachother, kind of like Zelda (yeah, I know there's a timeline, but it's more about the mythology of Link, Zelda and Ganon).

Another thing, how popular aren't reboots of famous series, be it games or movies, nowadays? LucasArts could easily enough reboot the series, and decide only the two first games are canon, and then move on to make a third. Wouldn't it be great if after MI2:SE (if it ever is released) they released Ron Gilbert's Monkey Island 3 in the same style as the first two and as a downloadable title?

[PariahKing]

Originally Posted by alexonfyre

Have you read much of this thread, I would classify a lot of it as "crapping all over"

I have the second post in this thread.

I see a lot of people who love CMI post, and a lot who whine about continuity in EMI. (Kind of funny really.) It obviously hasn't been much of a deterrent to fans of the game.

[MusicallyInspired]

Originally Posted by StarEye

Personally, I think the MI series should be unrelated, considering how it's turned into. They should just give up on the whole "canon" thing, and not have a timeline for the events at all. Just have them all as individual stories, unrelated to eachother, kind of like Zelda (yeah, I know there's a timeline, but it's more about the mythology of Link, Zelda and Ganon).

Actually, Miyamoto just officially announced recently that there is no timeline (a contradiction to his earlier remarks about the subject, but there you have it).

[Rather Dashing]

Originally Posted by PariahKing

The other thing I don't get - and it's not "just a game, you should relax" - is why people have expectations that the Ron Gilbert sequel...

A: Was really planned - he didn't make it up years later after things didn't work out with Cavedog entertainment (people act most of the time like Ron was screwed out of making his sequel, but that's anything but what happened)

B: Will have a super tight fit continuity that explains EVERYTHING. This almost never happens in any medium. A lot of the counterpoints people bring up with probably would be explained away or ignored, to fit whatever mold. It's already pretty confusing for anyone who wants to deny the curse theory - is he a kid or isn't (if not how do I explain the anarchronisms and references to Disney Land)

I actually don't think either of these, I just honestly think that whatever Ron Gilbert would have come up with would have flowed more organically out of the Monkey 2 ending. Monkey 3 felt like it was going through a rather convoluted mess to explain it away rather than working from it, and that just feels like really bad storytelling to me.

It'll be his first game in forever and we'll see if he still can hack it. Several authors "lose it" over the years. MI2 came out in 1991.

I'm certainly eager to give him the benefit of the doubt on this, or at least a fair shake.

Originally Posted by Pale Man

If it were all the "kid in a theme park" crap, what would the 3rd game have been? Guybrush and "Chuckie" having a slap fight in the backseat of their parents' car on the way home from the theme park?

Considering that a plain acceptance of the revelation at the end of the last game shows the events of the first two games of the series were Guybrush and Chuckie having a slap fight, why not?

There wouldn't have ever been a third game if the entire premise was "kid in a theme park."

I'd hardly say that would be the case. There are a lot of things you can say that flow from and grow from the original ending, rather than saying "Oh, um, uh, it doesn't matter because, um, MAGIC."

I don't care if Guybrush's actions "matter", because they were FUN TO DO. He's a character in an adventure game, his actions NEVER "mattered". What I don't like is shocking, amazing plot twists being explained away and ignored.

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

I don't buy the kid in a theme park explanation because MI2 itself didn't fully accept it. I mean come on. When they walked away Chuckie's eyes glowed with electricity and he laughed at the screen. Then half-way through the credits Elaine is left standing at the hole and says "Gee, I hope Guybrush is ok. I hope LeChuck didn't put a spell on him or anything!" So if it was a series closer it was one of the worst executed in history.

I've honestly always seen that as either the dying embers of the kid's imagination, or a hint that the Monkey Island world is a bit more real than the ending originally lets on. I think people are WAY to eager to simply throw out the whole deal altogether.

[alexonfyre]

I think the game is much more engrossing as Guybrush is an actual wannabe pirate in the carribean than some kid's fantasy persona. Sort of like the plot of MGS2. What a damn travesty.
It seemed obvious to me that Ron would have continued the series with Guybrush breaking the Curse and figuring out which world is real and which isn't. At least that is what I was expecting from the ending. Curse sort of ignored all that and went a separate route and tried to retcon the whole thing, which given the spirit of the game, I am totally fine with, I think the life and times of Guybrush are very fun given the explanation in CMI. I, like many others, wish we could one day know where Ron was going with it, but we won't so let's just accept what we have got.

[Ash735]

You know what, I'd laugh if Ron Gilbert came to these forums and just announced that there was no "Ron Gilbert's" Monkey Island 3 all along, he was just stringing fans along and Monkey Island 2 was just meant to be an open end to the series!

edit: Plus in an interview, didn't Ron say he's played through Curse and liked how they came up with a continueing story and style for the series?

[StarEye]

He said he enjoyed the game and the story, but not quite what he had in mind.

[Rather Dashing]

Originally Posted by Ash735

Plus in an interview, didn't Ron say he's played through Curse and liked how they came up with a continueing story and style for the series?

How is that relevant? How does it matter? I suppose if you're against a person with a "Ron Gilbert is a narrative deity" model, but that's simply not the case. I can, without contradicting myself:

1) Not like the way Curse handled the ending of Revenge
2) Like Curse
3) Think that Ron Gilbert's approach would be better, and
4) Disagree with Ron Gilbert about the quality of the explanation in Curse.

[Ash735]

Yeah, just read that up from the IRC chat they had. Still, better than his comments about Escape!

[PariahKing]

Originally Posted by Ash735

Yeah, just read that up from the IRC chat they had. Still, better than his comments about Escape!

I'm curious, what did he say.

[MusicallyInspired]

That's a good point actually, that the MI world is more real than was let on. Maybe Guybrush and Chuckie ARE kids and they found a portal into the MI world instead of the other way around.

I don't consider the imagination-only explanation at all, though.

[Ash735]

Originally Posted by PariahKing

I'm curious, what did he say.

I can't find the interview at the moment but it was just brought up like:

"Have you played Monkey Island 4?"
"No I haven't had the chance yet"
*something gets mentioned and the interviewer reveals the ending of Monkey Island 4 is a fight between a Giant Stone LeChuck and Guybrush controlling a Giant Monkey Robot in a parody of Mortal Kombat called Monkey Kombat*
*Ron then lautghs it off and asks seriously what the ending was*

[Haggis]

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

3) Think that Ron Gilbert's approach would be better

I'm not sure about that, considering nobody knows exactly what Ron Gilbert's approach would be, or if he even really has an idea in his head for MI3. That said, I would like a Monkey Island 3 made by Ron Gilbert, but just as an aside. So not 'canon'.

[coolsome]

Originally Posted by Ash735

I can't find the interview at the moment but it was just brought up like:

"Have you played Monkey Island 4?"
"No I haven't had the chance yet"
*something gets mentioned and the interviewer reveals the ending of Monkey Island 4 is a fight between a Giant Stone LeChuck and Guybrush controlling a Giant Monkey Robot in a parody of Mortal Kombat called Monkey Kombat*
*Ron then lautghs it off and asks seriously what the ending was*

thats like a sitcon moment with the alkwed silence after he waskes what it realy was

[Barnabus]

Originally Posted by Ash735

You know what, I'd laugh if Ron Gilbert came to these forums and just announced that there was no "Ron Gilbert's" Monkey Island 3 all along, he was just stringing fans along and Monkey Island 2 was just meant to be an open end to the series!

Supposedly the theme park ending was originally considered for the end of Monkey Island 1, so there's a decent chance this would actually be true. It would've been a great point to end the series as well, leaving people with something to debate. Even though I've mostly enjoyed the later games, and am looking forward to the rest of Tales, I can't help thinking the series' transition into the infinitely milkable franchise it is today is a little sad, and kind of tainted what was once a perfect little self contained thing.

[alexonfyre]

Originally Posted by Barnabus

Supposedly the theme park ending was originally considered for the end of Monkey Island 1, so there's a decent chance this would actually be true. It would've been a great point to end the series as well, leaving people with something to debate. Even though I've mostly enjoyed the later games, and am looking forward to the rest of Tales, I can't help thinking the series' transition into the infinitely milkable franchise it is today is a little sad, and kind of tainted what was once a perfect little self contained thing.

That is really the heart of the debate:
Was the series meant to go on or have all of the last 3 games (CMI, EMI and Tales) all been unintended continuation of a series that should be finished.
Some of us would rather accept the former explanation so that the series can go on without us all feeling like exploitable chumps.

[PariahKing]

I don't see how if we enjoy a product designed to milk money for something we're being exploited.

[alexonfyre]

Originally Posted by PariahKing

I don't see how if we enjoy a product designed to milk money for something we're being exploited.

From princeton dictionary:

developed or used to greatest advantage;
of persons; taken advantage of;

As fans of the series LucasArts would be making new games on a franchise that was never meant to continue to take advantage of our love of it, to take money from us. I mean, I will gladly be exploited for more monkey island goodness, but let's call a spade a spade here.

It would be like making a sequel to Scarface by saying that he actually survived somehow, or by making his son take over the business.
Something that isn't written with the spirit and intent of the original creation, but in the boardrooms of a corporation in order to mine us all for gold.
Which, like I said, I am A-OK with.

EDIT: Forgot a link =P

[Ash735]

Originally Posted by alexonfyre

It would be like making a sequel to Scarface by saying that he actually survived somehow,

Like the Video Game which completely changes the last scene of the film to have Tony turn around and shoot the guy before he shoots him, and then having Tony arrested and released to re-build his business.

...that was a shitty story.

[alexonfyre]

Originally Posted by Ash735

Like the Video Game which completely changes the last scene of the film to have Tony turn around and shoot the guy before he shoots him, and then having Tony arrested and released to re-build his business.

...that was a shitty story.

Haha, I forgot to link that in the original post, yep exactly what I was talking about.