Why are these episodes so damn easy?

[Toothless Gibbon]

One hour.. yeah right.

[Zomantic]

Originally Posted by prizna

I for some reason could not find the bucket.

The bucket and the tiny island are not puzzles. It's just pixel hunting. Actual puzzles in Spinner Cay were flat (I'm tired of listing all of them in each of these difficulty threads), and people keeps mentioning the bucket and the island as fine examples of complex puzzles which had them stuck. I really don't mind pixel hunting at all, it's an integral part of the genre, but please don't say gameplay in this second chapter was rich just because you spent half an hour looking for a bucket.

[JohanShogun]

I think the difficulty level is fine. Considering the size of the game and the release schedule I think that 2-4 hours average play time is great. You don't want impossibly hard puzzles if you want a diverse audience, the only people who really have the patience to solve the tedious time consuming puzzles where you have to find some item or have shoddy logic are children. And children solve that sort of thing unsettling fast mainly using trail and error.... You'll see a child systematically testing everything while an adult would find it boring.

[Woodsyblue]

Originally Posted by JohanShogun

I think the difficulty level is fine. Considering the size of the game and the release schedule I think that 2-4 hours average play time is great. You don't want impossibly hard puzzles if you want a diverse audience, the only people who really have the patience to solve the tedious time consuming puzzles where you have to find some item or have shoddy logic are children. And children solve that sort of thing unsettling fast mainly using trail and error.... You'll see a child systematically testing everything while an adult would find it boring.

QFW. Like I said before, when a game gets too hard it stops being fun. We all like being challenged but Telltale has to tread a fine line appeasing veterans and making their games accessible to the casual gamer. That's why choose your hint level system is in place.

If you still find it too easy with no hints then maybe you should try some harder games. Sam & Max Season 2 gets quite challenging

[jp-30]

Originally Posted by turingmachine604

Eh, both episodes have been a lot easier than the hardest Sam and Max episodes.

But the hardest Sam & max episodes were not S01E01 or S01E02. You want people to get hooked on the story, not get turned off because they're stuck.

I would have been shocked if the first 2 MI episodes were harder than the hardest Sam & Max episodes.

(and as a not-particularly relevant aside - LucasArts' Sam & Max game was a lot more difficult than any one of their Monkey Island games).

[spiffy_the_dog]

There's one more thing - a person who played a gazzilion of point-and-click adventure games has permanently set himself in a certain frame of mind which is difficult to get out of, which can make the game far easier then for the other types of gamers. A true adventurer can home in very easily on pieces of dialogue which hold hints to the puzzles, he knows the "economy of objects" which dictates that every object will have to be used at least once (and hence unused objects have much higher priority unsolved-puzzle-wise then used ones) and he understands that solving each puzzle usually provides ingredients for solving the next one so it is crucial to constantly check and re-check "what has changed" or "what is new".

If the developer wants to make the game really hard for these kind of gamers he must either severely break the established conventions (risky, because the conventions are precisely what adventure gamers like) or make the game chokeful of puzzles that are either horribly complex or require ridicilous amounts of pixel hunting or insane logic. It's doubtful that these kind of games would have ANY general appeal. I really like the example of Gabriel Knight 3 from that "Death of Adventure games" article - where you have to make a fake moustache by taping a masking tape to the fence where a black cat will eventually pass, and consequently put it on your face using maple syrup. What?

The Monkey Island series (and other Telltale offerings) seem to walk the fine line quite gracefully so far. The puzzles are logical but still fit nicely in the slightly off universe the game is set in. Sure, if you are an old-school point-and-clicker you will find them a bit on the easy side (compared to old adventure games) but I would never call them "too easy". They are imaginative and fun to solve. I might have appreciated them a bit harder, but I, too, consider myself a veteran of adventure games so I'm not that objective. And I see my girlfriend (hardly any kind of gamer) enjoying the "Tales" by herself, and I consider this a great thing - it's not common that I buy a game which both of us can play and enjoy.

[Laffer]

Originally Posted by jp-30

But the hardest Sam & max episodes were not S01E01 or S01E02. You want people to get hooked on the story, not get turned off because they're stuck.

This isnt 1990, basicly everyone that has downloaded this game also has access to the internet, If you where stuck when the original Monkey Island came out, you couldn't just use a hint system because there wasn't any, or look the walkthrough from internet. Then it was truly frustrating to get stuck, but now we have a hint system and if that doesn't help you can allways come here and find a direct solution to a problem in minutes.

First episode took me 3-4hours, this one was 2-3hours with hints turned all the way down and without looking up thing in the forums, and I went through most of the dialogue too, so I wasn't trying to break any records but just enjoy the game. The longest I was stuck involved an island that I missed on the map, that tells something about difficulty level here...

Edit. Also the jungles in both episodes seem like they where just put in there to make the game longer, sure in episode one jungle actually was used to solve some puzzles but here its just mostly waste of time in my opinion.

Edit#2. Just to clarify, ep1 was fine with duration but 2nd was shorter and easier, just hoping that next ones won't be even shorter.

[OCKi]

My theory on why some veteran adventuregamers experience the ToMI chapters so easy, is simply because there are no verbs to choose from when you are interacting around in the evironment. This limitizes the time you think between each puzzle, and really puts a boundary on how difficullt the game can be; If you click on everything and everyone you solve the whole game.

A good example on how a "verb" puzzle is more difficult than just clicking on it, is the dandruff-puzzle in CMI. - You have to "look" at the coat first to even discover its there. and you have to "open" the pocket to discover the glove.
If this puzzle were in ToMI, you simply have to click on the coat.

Personally, I have no problem with this, and I think ToMI has offered a fair amount of variating puzzles that has a logic and rewarding feeling to it.

[Darylman]

The argument "don't say its too easy because some people find it too hard" is absolutely ridiculous. I'm tired of catering to the least amongst us. Make the game harder, period. It's ridiculously easy.

[JohanShogun]

Originally Posted by Darylman

The argument "don't say its too easy because some people find it too hard" is absolutely ridiculous. I'm tired of catering to the least amongst us. Make the game harder, period. It's ridiculously easy.

Sooooo, you are saying one should make games for the 10% of the "hardcore" or "veteran" people who always complain things are to easy and ignore the 90%, and then get startled when the games don't sell or make a profit?


edit: also a note on IQ tests, don't put to much credit to them, they are basically the same as they were in the 50's when they were designed after white college students. Anyone can get a perfect score in their third attempt, regardless of how intelligent they are.

[Zomantic]

Originally Posted by OCKi

I'm playing it for the jokes, the intriguing storyline and unique piraty atmosphere.
If you want the ultimate challenge, subscribe for an IQ test.

And if you want jokes, intriguing storyline and unique piraty atmosphere, go watch Pirates of the Caribbean.

No, seriously, this is Monkey Island. It's the quintessential adventure game. And adventure games are about clever puzzles and compelling gameplay. The Secret of Monkey Island revolutionized the genre because of its incredibly fun gameplay: it wasn't just a collection of funny piratey cutscenes, it was the perfect adventure game!

And why is everyone praising logic? Logic is overrated, really. I don't want an adventure game to be logical, I want it to be fun! It has to startle me continually, it has to twist logic (being consistent in doing this, mind you). Take for istance the marvellous underwater puzzle in TSoMI: you're trapped under the sea, held by the Idol of many hands, surrounded by sharp objects; you try cutting the rope, checking your inventory: but everyday logic doesn't work, and all you have to do is pick up the Idol. Briliant.

[Raven266]

It wasn't that hard I got to admit, Episode 1 was a bit harder!
but I much prefer this to any pixel hunting or just completely inlogical puzzles/combinations of items! and what is said before; you don't have to rush through the game, take your time and try every talk option with every character, enjoy the surroundings.

for example I personally loved the skeleton on Isle of Ewe (I-love-you haha ) Guybrush asking "Murray?" was very funny and a cool homage to the previous MI adventures.

also, the manatee toy singing "A Pirate I was meant to be" damn I must have used that 20 times

[spiffy_the_dog]

Originally Posted by Zomantic

And why is everyone praising logic? Logic is overrated, really. I don't want an adventure game to be logical, I want it to be fun!

No way. If they started to do things like this, soon you would be using monkeys as wrenches just because there is a tool called "monkey wrench". And we simply cannot have that kind of stuff.

[OCKi]

I'm sorry, but after reading through my post several times, I found it retarded. Especially the IQ-test part.. So, I'm sorry! I take that back!

*delete post*
*slap face*

Puzzles ARE important, and thinking back, the series have given us some amazing, unique, absurd and illogical ones that truly defines Monkey Island:
- The Idol underwater puzzle you mentioned in SoMI
- the monkeywrench puzzle in MI2
- The trapped in a snake/quicksand puzzle in CMI
- The Myst o' Time puzzle in EfMI
- The direct-control puzzle in DeSinge's lab in ToMI

[guitarsareboring]

Illogical puzzles aren't clever, hence the word illogical.

I thought it was enjoyably easy. I would like some longer puzzles that require you to visit more locations in order to complete them... sometimes you get an item early on and you can tell what the puzzle is going be before you've even got to it... but if Sam and Max season 2 is anything to go by, it WILL get harder.

[Edward VanHelgen]

i think Tales is somewhat intentionally made in this difficulty. you can not say its hard or easy exactly, but i couldn't help to think right after i bought the first episode that it's also not exactly what would you expect from the adventure gameplay in style of the golden years.

why? well, authors back then weren't exactly concerned about the game difficulty and whether the game will apply and be likeable to everyone, including young gamers mostly. probably because adventure games were so popular that they didn't have to do that. they could just include every insane idea about the puzzle they had.

telltale is a big company because it's making adventure games in great classic styles trying to keep them going forward - it's big in deeds but you have a financial aspect too. so, when you also have to think whether your game will find the interest in all sorts of gamers that means there have to be some compromises, and compromises in terms of the difficulty as well. i don't wanna sound like - telltale sold itself to please the young gamers, because its a problem that goes a little over the telltale itself.

i was worried when i heard before the first episode that telltale said - we don't wanna make new monkey island games too difficult. that's ok as long as adventure gameplay is a lot above the cassuality level regarding puzzles itself, steps to complete puzzles number of puzzles and so on.

what i would like to say - telltale is more or less on the good path with a puzzles. i'd like them not to be afraid to make puzzles a little harder, or include more of them, more items, combinations and so on. don't let that some twisted crazy bizarre idea you have about some puzzle be left out because you think it could prove of a little too much. it could just turn out into a classic - a classic that everyone will like.

[Fulvio75]

Originally Posted by Zomantic

And if you want jokes, intriguing storyline and unique piraty atmosphere, go watch Pirates of the Caribbean.

No, seriously, this is Monkey Island. It's the quintessential adventure game. And adventure games are about clever puzzles and compelling gameplay. The Secret of Monkey Island revolutionized the genre because of its incredibly fun gameplay: it wasn't just a collection of funny piratey cutscenes, it was the perfect adventure game!

And why is everyone praising logic? Logic is overrated, really. I don't want an adventure game to be logical, I want it to be fun! It has to startle me continually, it has to twist logic (being consistent in doing this, mind you). Take for istance the marvellous underwater puzzle in TSoMI: you're trapped under the sea, held by the Idol of many hands, surrounded by sharp objects; you try cutting the rope, checking your inventory: but everyday logic doesn't work, and all you have to do is pick up the Idol. Briliant.

i totally agree! as i always say adventure games are moving toward a "click and watch" style and this is really sad. but i even understand that todays players are different and games are made for them.

What i really dislike in this kind of threads is the total lack of a compromise solution. I mean, if you say something bad against TOMI it is like you're insulting someone and viceversa. If people asks for more hard puzzles (just to stay in topic) it doesnt mean that they want illogical or pixel haunting puzzles...
it is just a game afterall... no game will ever be perfect

[Randulf]

Originally Posted by Zomantic

And why is everyone praising logic? Logic is overrated, really. I don't want an adventure game to be logical, I want it to be fun! It has to startle me continually, it has to twist logic (being consistent in doing this, mind you). Take for istance the marvellous underwater puzzle in TSoMI: you're trapped under the sea, held by the Idol of many hands, surrounded by sharp objects; you try cutting the rope, checking your inventory: but everyday logic doesn't work, and all you have to do is pick up the Idol. Briliant.

Because when a puzzle ceases to be logical, it ceases to be fun. The TSoMI puzzle is extremely logical (you've been keeping the idol in your inventory all along, so why can't you just pick it up?); this is an excellent puzzle because it pokes fun at the typical adventure gamers' habit of over-analyzing.

A true illogical puzzle is the rabbit short-circuit in Sam & Max Hit the Road. Is the puzzle fun? Only in the sense you see sparks flying around Max; more likely, the gamer will feel stuck and frustrated.

[Crys]

Originally Posted by spiffy_the_dog

There's one more thing - a person who played a gazzilion of point-and-click adventure games has permanently set himself in a certain frame of mind which is difficult to get out of, which can make the game far easier then for the other types of gamers. A true adventurer can home in very easily on pieces of dialogue which hold hints to the puzzles, he knows the "economy of objects" which dictates that every object will have to be used at least once (and hence unused objects have much higher priority unsolved-puzzle-wise then used ones) and he understands that solving each puzzle usually provides ingredients for solving the next one so it is crucial to constantly check and re-check "what has changed" or "what is new".

If the developer wants to make the game really hard for these kind of gamers he must either severely break the established conventions (risky, because the conventions are precisely what adventure gamers like) or make the game chokeful of puzzles that are either horribly complex or require ridicilous amounts of pixel hunting or insane logic. It's doubtful that these kind of games would have ANY general appeal. I really like the example of Gabriel Knight 3 from that "Death of Adventure games" article - where you have to make a fake moustache by taping a masking tape to the fence where a black cat will eventually pass, and consequently put it on your face using maple syrup. What?

The Monkey Island series (and other Telltale offerings) seem to walk the fine line quite gracefully so far. The puzzles are logical but still fit nicely in the slightly off universe the game is set in. Sure, if you are an old-school point-and-clicker you will find them a bit on the easy side (compared to old adventure games) but I would never call them "too easy". They are imaginative and fun to solve. I might have appreciated them a bit harder, but I, too, consider myself a veteran of adventure games so I'm not that objective. And I see my girlfriend (hardly any kind of gamer) enjoying the "Tales" by herself, and I consider this a great thing - it's not common that I buy a game which both of us can play and enjoy.

THIS.

Spiffy pretty much nailed the issue with 'hardcore' adventure gamers. I have tried to get many of my friends into adventures, so I've seen first-hand just how lost a person new to this genre can be when they first play such a game. It has nothing to do with intelligence (well, perhaps it does a little), and even people who are capable of lateral thinking will be a little overwhelmed if they have zero experience.

I really like the example of Gabriel Knight 3 from that "Death of Adventure games" article - where you have to make a fake moustache by taping a masking tape to the fence where a black cat will eventually pass, and consequently put it on your face using maple syrup. What?

Guh, I hated that puzzle so much. That and the candy/passport one. GK3 could've been great, and I still enjoyed it immensely, but parts of it were just plain ridiculous. Still, this game has what is, in my opinion, one of the best riddles in adventure games ever: Le Serpent Rouge. I have never had so much fun and felt so good after solving a puzzle than when I completed this. Good times.

[Rather Dashing]

No, seriously, this is Monkey Island. It's the quintessential adventure game. And adventure games are about clever puzzles and compelling gameplay. The Secret of Monkey Island revolutionized the genre because of its incredibly fun gameplay: it wasn't just a collection of funny piratey cutscenes, it was the perfect adventure game!

Actually, LucasArts "revolutionized the genre" by....ready for it?...MAKING GAMES EASIER.

Compared to Infocom and Sierra games, the LucasArts adventures are far simpler. And they did this intentionally. Take this piece from the Sam and Max manual about the LucasArts game design philosophy:

That people consider LucasArts some bastion of difficult adventure game design is pretty hilarious to me. They were the ones that trimmed away conventions, for better or for worse, to make games more accessible.