Why are these episodes so damn easy?

[Zomantic]

Originally Posted by spiffy_the_dog

No way. If they started to do things like this, soon you would be using monkeys as wrenches just because there is a tool called "monkey wrench". And we simply cannot have that kind of stuff.

True, but there is an equilibrium which can be found (and it's something which Telltale has accomplished countless times: Screaming Narwhal is perfect, its world doesn't work according to everyday logic - boomerang cannonball, eyed cheese wheel, magnetic monkey, and of course impaled DeSinge-, but it's coherent nevertheless). What I didn't like about the puzzles and the gameplay in Spinner Cay is their disappointing predictability:

- LeChuck doesn't know what to do, you tell him what to do;
- Poxed pirates require a golden turtle, you prepare one with the conveniently provided mould (but the barbecue needs coal and a knob; and you'll also need to find the shortest route);
- McGilligutty keeps destroying your mast, you replace it with a rubber tree (this one could have been pretty entertaining, but in fact all you have to do is speak to the poxed pirates again);
etc.ter

Give me some thrills, please! I'm not asking for a "monkey wrench", I'm only asking for something less obvious. Anyway, I really need to stop whining about this... The games are excellent, and I know I won't be disappointed by the next chapters.

About logical/illogical: my statement of logic being overrated was something of a boutade, I admit it... The game world has to be consistent, of course, and the cause-effect connections must be transparent to the player; but, again, there is a right equilibrium, and a Monkey Island game needs a twisted logic of its own to be properly fun. More examples from TSoMI:
- Grog becomes a metal eroding substance only when you need it to free Otis (illogical);
- you give the rat repellent to Otis (logical, the character asks for it) to get Aunt Tillie's cake, which contains a file (twisted);
- you give bananas to the monkey (logical), but you need the monkey to keep the Giant Monkey Head gate open (twisted, unexpected);
etc.

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

That people consider LucasArts some bastion of difficult adventure game design is pretty hilarious to me.

I never said that. I know what LucasArts philosophy was, and I knew what I meant: it revolutionized the genre indeed, and not by making puzzles harder or easier; just by making them more fun.

[Crys]

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

Actually, LucasArts "revolutionized the genre" by....ready for it?...MAKING GAMES EASIER.

There's a difference between hard and ridiculous. Anyone here ever played LSL2? At some point in the game, you must abandon a cruise ship and head for an island. You can carry a certain amount of items with you, if memory serves, and you have to somehow predict which ones you'll need. If you don't pick up the necessary ones, later on in the game you'll die or blow it in various ways.

That is not a challenge, that's horrible game design.

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

That people consider LucasArts some bastion of difficult adventure game design is pretty hilarious to me. They were the ones that trimmed away conventions, for better or for worse, to make games more accessible.

I don't think anyone considers LucasArts adventures to be the most difficult games out there. It's just that people have put LucasArts on a pedestal because of the quality of the games they released. And with good reason.

Personally, I don't mind dying in games, or failing because I did something stupid. One of my favorite adventure games ever is Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers and there are many ways for you to die in that game. The difference, however, is that in those instances, the death can be justified and it's not because you did something wrong earlier on.

What LucasArts did and other companies also adopted later on, was not to let the player move on with the story after having missed something they will need.

And again, that's just good game design.

[Raven266]

I like how they bash Sierra games to the ground hah

[Fulvio75]

Originally Posted by Crys

There's a difference between hard and ridiculous. Anyone here ever played LSL2? At some point in the game, you must abandon a cruise ship and head for an island. You can carry a certain amount of items with you, if memory serves, and you have to somehow predict which ones you'll need. If you don't pick up the necessary ones, later on in the game you'll die or blow it in various ways.

i did as with (almost) all the other games of that time. Even Maniac Mansion, if i recall right, had a "forced choose" at the very beginning (the photographer). Personally it's not a real problem to me. Anyway these were other times.
What i mean is that the extremism in both ways is wrong. People demand for harder games not for impossible ones and, for how are todays ADVs realized, i agree with them.

[Crys]

Originally Posted by Fulvio75

What i mean is that the extremism in both ways is wrong. People demand for harder games not for impossible ones and, for how are todays ADVs realized, i agree with them.

No disagreements here. I, too, am hoping for a couple of harder puzzles in later chapters, but my biggest beef with many posters here is that they were expecting them from the get-go.

Playing an episodic game is entirely new territory for me, so maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I reserve final judgment until I have finished the whole game.

I don't see each episode as a game on its own, so I won't nag about episode X being easier than episode Y. I see it as a currently unfinished game, and we've only played two fifths of it so far.

If the end result is not up to my standards I'll have no problem voicing my honest opinion, but until then, I'll be patient and wait to see what TT have in store for us in the future.

[Randulf]

For people with a taste for some anachronistic "difficulty", check out A Vampyre Story. True, this game is an artistic masterpiece, but it comes with all sorts of adventure games faux pas:

• Insane pixel hunt -- Without any visual cues and without anyone telling you, you're supposed to fetch a perfume bottle underneath a bed.
  
• Deliberately withholding vital information -- You have to make magic potions out of soda pop. You're sure you get the combo absolutely right, but the spell always fizzled. Turned out that the potion can't be made with diet soda, and that you have to "undiet" it by adding sugar. Strange thing that the potion handbook never mentions that.
  
• Labyrinthine twists of logic -- It's snowing outside and you're trapped within a locked hut. Here is your way to freedom: flare up the flames in the fireplace with perfume. The fire will melt the snow on the roof, and the water will collect in a bucket beneath a rain-gully. Before the water freezes again, however, you have to knock the bucket over by passing some tool through a small crack beneath the door. The water then flows into the hut, and you can suck it up with a fire bellow. Put out the fire so that, you, as a vampire, can transform into a bat and fly out through the fireplace Fun, isn't it.

[Fulvio75]

Originally Posted by Crys

No disagreements here. I, too, am hoping for a couple of harder puzzles in later chapters, but my biggest beef with many posters here is that they were expecting them from the get-go.

Playing an episodic game is entirely new territory for me, so maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I reserve final judgment until I have finished the whole game.

I don't see each episode as a game on its own, so I won't nag about episode X being easier than episode Y. I see it as a currently unfinished game, and we've only played two fifths of it so far.

If the end result is not up to my standards I'll have no problem voicing my honest opinion, but until then, I'll be patient and wait to see what TT have in store for us in the future.

that's a good position that i totally respect. i'm new to this kind of games too and if i should judge S&M season 1 as 5 (ok 6, abe was great still alone) different mini games i would say that it was not so great but played all together was really funny and somewhat "complete".
i think that episodic release is challenging on its own because of how people hurl to each one, but i think that puzzles are fundamental because an adventure is built on them. if a certain number of people says that these puzzles are too much easy, i think that they should be taken more seriously (but this does not mean that their word is the one) than on any other aspect of the game (sound, graphics, engine, controls etc. but not for the plot).

cheers

[spiffy_the_dog]

Originally Posted by Raven266

I like how they bash Sierra games to the ground hah

It's because they deserve to be bashed.

In those days it was essentially LucasArts vs. Sierra. LucasArts produced adventure games sparingly, but they quality tested every game to hell and back and did their best to offer the best gaming experience. Sierra on the other hand chose quantity over quality and pumped out those "quest" games one after another. The kicker was that adventure gamers bought them all even though they knew the experience will leave a lot to be desired - even a lousy adventure game was better then no adventure game at all. Still, getting a new LucasArts game was much more special then buying a new Sierra installment - it was like a difference between a superbly prepared gourmet meal and killing hunger with an undercooked hamburger from that greasy joint down the road.

Of course, as a result, LucasArts adventures (and their basic principles of game design) made adventure games easier. But this is a good thing; some things that were accepted in the early 90's just wouldn't fly today. Just look how people balk if some bug surfaces and they have to replay a part of a game; imagine if replaying again and again was an actual feature. I would be the first to be done with the adventure genre altogether...


P.S. Noone got the monkey wrench reference? Seriously?

[OCKi]

Originally Posted by spiffy_the_dog

P.S. Noone got the monkey wrench reference? Seriously?

It's kinda one of those things you don't think over when english aint your native language.
But I loved that puzzle when I finally got it!

Anyone else think that if ToMI had the "verbs" interface from CMI, the difficulty would increase a notch?

[Zomantic]

Originally Posted by OCKi

Anyone else think that if ToMI had the "verbs" interface from CMI, the difficulty would increase a notch?

It may, but that's not the point. Telltale has created some excellent puzzles through their single click interface (and that without the possibility of combining items or even examining them): just browse through your Sam & Max collection and you'll find plenty of good examples.
And to clarify my point of view one last time, I'd like to see some harder puzzles in the future chapters, but that's not what I'm currently complaining about (also because I'm almost sure they will be there). All I'm saying is that puzzles in Spinner Cay were uninteresting, predictable and unsatisfying: it's not just a matter of difficulty.

[Pretender]

I didn't find it challenging, but I don't like having to backtrack to all places just to find one little inventory part which I overlooked. Isn't hard, just lazyness on my part.. I really just wanna know the story and "interesting" characters. I couldn't care if I would have to shoot my way through a story or find items and combine them, but I guess that's just me heh.

[shref]

Originally Posted by Randulf

For people with a taste for some anachronistic "difficulty", check out A Vampyre Story. True, this game is an artistic masterpiece, but it comes with all sorts of adventure games faux pas:

• Insane pixel hunt -- Without any visual cues and without anyone telling you, you're supposed to fetch a perfume bottle underneath a bed.
  
• Deliberately withholding vital information -- You have to make magic potions out of soda pop. You're sure you get the combo absolutely right, but the spell always fizzled. Turned out that the potion can't be made with diet soda, and that you have to "undiet" it by adding sugar. Strange thing that the potion handbook never mentions that.
  
• Labyrinthine twists of logic -- It's snowing outside and you're trapped within a locked hut. Here is your way to freedom: flare up the flames in the fireplace with perfume. The fire will melt the snow on the roof, and the water will collect in a bucket beneath a rain-gully. Before the water freezes again, however, you have to knock the bucket over by passing some tool through a small crack beneath the door. The water then flows into the hut, and you can suck it up with a fire bellow. Put out the fire so that, you, as a vampire, can transform into a bat and fly out through the fireplace Fun, isn't it.

i may have to check this out...how old is it??

[Macfly77]

Originally Posted by shref

i may have to check this out...how old is it??

It was released at the end of last year.
You can find more details at http://www.vampyrestory-game.com/.
I got it for Mac a couple of weeks ago (actually, the "Labyrinthine twists of logic" example from Randulf's post, which was the game's demo, is what sold me on the game!) and it's beautiful, but quite hard (I have played for a few hours already and don't feel like I'm making much progress - but my inventory's filling up nicely!).
I might be too used to the (perfect) level of difficulty of Telltale's games for a game like this one, but I'll definitely keep at it (and hopefully finish it before the release of its sequel).

[shref]

i have the feeling i'll be buying this tonight lol

[The Commissioner]

I think the difficulty level in Telltale games is OK for me. I really hate getting stuck in a game with no logical course of action. Every puzzle in a Telltale game seems to have a logical solution and that's good because you don't get stuck.

If you're a logical person, then you might find them easy to solve - but that's only half of what I play for - I like the experience of exploring too and listening to the dialogue and watching the action. I think the Tales of Monkey Island games have so far satsified me with their mix of puzzles and gameplay, and the length of the games has also been satisfying. Usually each episode takes about 4 hours for me to complete, and that's the kind of length I'm OK with. More would be great, but I haven't ever found myself thinking "that's too short".

I think I'll believe all the people who are saying that each game will increase in difficulty as it is released. It's good design, as the easier first chapter pulls people in and then they continue to be entertained as future episodes get more challenging. I think someone once stated they didn't want to make a super-hard chapter 1 and put casual gamers off buying it.

I recently bought Secret of Monkey Island Special Edition and completed the entire game in about 4 hours. That's the whole thing - not just the individual chapters. That's even taking into account the bits I forgot and how to complete all the puzzles (I don't remember anything from 20 years ago!). When you look at it that way, Tales of Monkey Island is five times longer and has more to enjoy.

[Macfly77]

Originally Posted by shref

i have the feeling i'll be buying this tonight lol

You might also be interested in knowing that the makers of "A Vampyre Story", Autumn Moon Entertainment, are going to release a game called " The Ghost Pirates of Vooju Island".
Here's a link to that game's official (and currently quite "barren") website, here's an Adventure Gamers preview and here's a link to a trailer that premiered a few days ago.
Enjoy!

[Ignatius]

Ha ha im just playing a Vampire Story right now and the difficult is good. I agree on some things Randulf said (the perfume under the bed was tricky) but about the diet soda Mona said it didnt work because it was diet.

Anyway, relating this to ToMI, one thing i like about "A Vampire Story" is that when you think you already solved a puzzle there is a new difficulty to solve. Most of the puzzles have many layers.
The most opposite example of this in Tales... would be the oyster/pearl puzzle, wich isnt even a puzzle:
You know you need a pearl, you found an oyster coupon right there, you get the oyster, you get the pearl. Its just one big straight line. I though the puzzle was gonna be how you open the oyster (i thought maybe seagulls on Coronado shack would help) but no.

And one last thing, if people complain about being easy its because thats the only thing we can do.
People that found the game hard can always get the hints up, there is solution for that. But the ones that found it easy cant make anything, but wish the next one will be harder. And if it isnt we can only complain again.

[shref]

Originally Posted by Macfly77

You might also be interested in knowing that the makers of "A Vampyre Story", Autumn Moon Entertainment, are going to release a game called " The Ghost Pirates of Vooju Island".
Here's a link to that game's official (and currently quite "barren") website, here's an Adventure Gamers preview and here's a link to a trailer that premiered a few days ago.
Enjoy!

ive already been keep a very close eye on that

[guitarsareboring]

Originally Posted by Ignatius

Anyway, relating this to ToMI, one thing i like about "A Vampire Story" is that when you think you already solved a puzzle there is a new difficulty to solve. Most of the puzzles have many layers.
The most opposite example of this in Tales... would be the oyster/pearl puzzle, wich isnt even a puzzle:
You know you need a pearl, you found an oyster coupon right there, you get the oyster, you get the pearl. Its just one big straight line. I though the puzzle was gonna be how you open the oyster (i thought maybe seagulls on Coronado shack would help) but no.

That crossed my mind too... there aren't many moments that make you feel like a genius for working a puzzle out.

[Amaterasu]

Personally, I took my time and played really for the fun, went into the game and tried to solve it with no hints at all. Took me around 4 days since the game was out.
I think more hard than that will just be annoying. The game is is not too easy, it's fine. The chapters are to short if you ask me, and I really would love to see new character models and not reused ones.
I'm really glad there are many items in the inventory though! That was a real weak point in Sam & Max.