Brutal Legend

[Katsuro]

Originally Posted by Lena_P

Thank you for actually reading my post, and allaying my fears. To the other people who said, "Yeah, but those chicks need to be in a heavy metal game," I didn't say they shouldn't be, I said they shouldn't be the only female characters. Please excuse me for sounding testy, but this is about the millionth time I've had this conversation.

You might feel releaved that in this game NO women actually is like the harem in the promo video.
The Razor Girls (girls with huge guns. Yeah I mean wepaons) are friendly towards Eddie, but nothing else. On the battlefield they are almost one of the most powerfull double team, since you basicaly can play almost as in a FPS. The main reason for them to follow is Ophelia and not Eddie.

The Amazons are feared, even with the male characters in the game. Eddie of course flirts with them as well, but never recieves an answer. They don't bow to anybody. On the battlefield they have the controll over huge firespitting monster which basically kills anything if the amazons don't tell it not to (Eddie even tries to tame the monsters before he get to know the amazons). Their skimpy outfit CAN be discussed, not their relationship towards Eddie (which is non existend).

There are two other female "lead" character in the game, but none of them ever is the damsel in distress.

I can understand how girls can be offended by the outfits and the usuall Heavy Metal world. In this game however I never had the feeling that one of them is the weak "Please help me, I'm so helpless and my closes are falling of off me, also I like to be your slave" stereotype.

I know what I'm talking about, I played it

[Secret Fawful]

Personally, I think it's quite simple. If you don't like what's in the game don't play it.

Who cares about what women are in the game as long as the gameplay is good? Princess Peach isn't the smartest or most engaging woman yet the Mario games do just fine and don't suffer in the slightest by it.

[Katsuro]

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

Personally, I think it's quite simple. If you don't like what's in the game don't play it.

Who cares about what women are in the game as long as the gameplay is good? Princess Peach isn't the smartest or most engaging woman yet the Mario games do just fine and don't suffer in the slightest by it.

Aw man come on. Not the "Just don't play it" answer.
You're better then that!

Besides, Princess Peach is badass (if I find the analysis on her I'll show you).

And you can be offended by stuff you don't play as well if that stuff renders your race, beliefs and/or gender as something you don't like.
Actually it's not about playing it or not playing it. Because if "Just don't [whatever] it" is the answer, I don't know who thousands of gamers are offended when another report - about how the increase of violence is the games fault hits - the TV Stations. Granted, they could lead to worried parents and worried governments and certain games won't be allowed anymore, but if you are offended by those reports -which basically say you are only one step away from being a criminal- just don't watch them right? Nobody forces you.

[Secret Fawful]

Originally Posted by Katsuro

Aw man come on. Not the "Just don't play it" answer.
You're better then that!

Besides, Princess Peach is badass (if I find the analysis on her I'll show you).

And you can be offended by stuff you don't play as well if that stuff renders your race, beliefs and/or gender as something you don't like.
Actually it's not about playing it or not playing it. Because if "Just don't [whatever] it" is the answer, I don't know who thousands of gamers are offended when another report - about how the increase of violence is the games fault hits - the TV Stations. Granted, they could lead to worried parents and worried governments and certain games won't be allowed anymore, but if you are offended by those reports -which basically say you are only one step away from being a criminal- just don't watch them right? Nobody forces you.

Being badass doesn't automatically make you smart or engaging. Princess Peach is the only ruler of an entire kingdom who has not only been raided a bajillion times, but has placed her castle within walking distance of her mortal enemies hideout and allowed him to walk into her throne room unassaulted every single time he pleased.

Look, it seems overboard (to me) to judge so much about a game from five seconds. In fact its either five or less. Five seconds of scantily clad goth women crawling around like demons in a heavy metal game. Gee, that's strange. In a teaser that only shows one main character, not even the bad guy, that must automatically mean they must be the only female characters in the game. Not. I agree that it would have been stupid if they were the only women in the game, heck if they were in the game at all. But it was ridiculous to assume that from a teaser that wasn't even showing off actual story.

No offense to Lena but it's ridiculous to try to impose a moralism or ideal onto anything having to do with heavy metal. No offense to heavy metal fans, but heavy metal isn't (as I see it) the most idealistic of genres of anything. It's not really as much that the women being as such in the game was stupid as it was that all metal (to me) is stupid.

Now on the other hand, it's also stupid to assume in a heavy metal game that sexy women wouldn't have brains or be badass just because they act sexy(or slutty). Last I checked sexiness(or sluttiness even) and brains can go together or maybe Lena can correct me on that. I could be wrong, maybe women can only have one of those at the same time? However, I don't think that's the case. I think she assumed a lot and too fast, and tried the equivalent of adding messages about world peace into 80's action movies. When it comes to heavy metal, the image of being surrounded by sluts is designed to make whomever look "badass". It might be retarded, but its there because of that.

NOTE: If heavy metal didn't stereotype women maybe I would like it more, because I do believe sexiness and brains should come in the same package. And in the end the whole discussion is irrelevant because there WAS a better female main.

EDIT 2: With metal the way it is, we're lucky we GOT a badass female main with brains. We're lucky it was a game by Tim Schafer, eh?

[Falanca]

Being badass and brave enough to go into trouble and crack some skulls just for fun is, in fact, the opposite of being smart. For the record, the heavy metal genre relies on that. Mostly smart people listen to it, because mostly they're bored from the strict rules of reality, so they just want to relax by listening to the tales of warriors want to kill a dragon or a demon or something. It's not something bad, it's the same as people reading Harry Potter books or... playing Sam and Max or Monkey Island?

I haven't played the game yet, unfortunately. But, to be honest, I've never seen a character (main or not main) that can be called "slutty" in the screenies or the artworks of the game. Nearly all the gal characters were wearing tees and jeans, and if you think groupies being flirty as a non-subtle element, well, there is a reason why they're called "groupies".

It may not be the ideal way of thinking, that's fine, but it doesn't mean there is no need to impose moralism into it. Simply every human action has moralism somewhere, and heavy metal of course has its own roots. You clearly don't like heavy metal, so I believe this isn't an objective argument.

[Secret Fawful]

Originally Posted by Falanca

Being badass and brave enough to go into trouble and crack some skulls just for fun is, in fact, the opposite of being smart. For the record, the heavy metal genre relies on that. Mostly smart people listen to it, because mostly they're bored from the strict rules of reality, so they just want to relax by listening to the tales of warriors want to kill a dragon or a demon or something. It's not something bad, it's the same as people reading Harry Potter books or... playing Sam and Max or Monkey Island?

I haven't played the game yet, unfortunately. But, to be honest, I've never seen a character (main or not main) that can be called "slutty" in the screenies or the artworks of the game. Nearly all the gal characters were wearing tees and jeans, and if you think groupies being flirty as a non-subtle element, well, there is a reason why they're called "groupies".

It may not be the ideal way of thinking, that's fine, but it doesn't mean there is no need to impose moralism into it. Simply every human action has moralism somewhere, and heavy metal of course has its own roots. You clearly don't like heavy metal, so I believe this isn't an objective argument.

I never said being badass and cracking skulls for fun. Where did I say that? Being badass as in taking no names and being ABLE to crack skulls can come with being smart. Ala Ben from Full Throttle. Many smart people don't listen to heavy metal as well. The slutty characters being referred to were in the teaser for the game.

Oh, and the debate isn't about whether or not heavy metal is good or whether or not I like it. Just because I express my opinion in a debate doesn't take away my objectivity, just as much as someone who expresses their love for heavy metal in the argument is not losing their objectivity. My point is that it was ridiculous to assume that the game was automatically objectifying women and filled with sluts just because of a five second part of a small teaser. Don't judge a book by it's cover so to speak; first impressions are not always correct.

[Falanca]

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

I never said being badass and cracking skulls for fun. Where did I say that? Being badass as in taking no names and being ABLE to crack skulls can come with being smart. Ala Ben from Full Throttle. Many smart people don't listen to heavy metal as well. The slutty characters being referred to were in the teaser for the game.

I said it was for fun, not you, and it's not an important point anyway. You wouldn't be cracking skulls to feel saddened about them. It'd be pointless. I wanted to point out that being entertained by killing stuff is a norm of heavy metal.

It's not like you kill stuff covering yourself time to time, trying to hit vital points and use different items... You know, USE a STRATEGY. Fighting by the aid of thinking exist, but if we're talking about heavy metal; your willpower and manliness is where you get your strength from. No strategy, no need to be smart.

Smart people like art. Smart people listen to music. Heavy metal is a genre in which many instruments and harmony is used, it's a well developed music genre, and many of its followers are aware of this fact. I did not like your generalization here.

Outer beauty of the female is a recurring theme of heavy metal, and it's used in the game in a reasonable amount.

I came to this conclusion of the argument not being objective because you said there is no need to impose moralism to heavy metal. I generalized your thoughts from this point, and it's not the ideal way to determine things, so I'm sorry. I still strictly disagree with you there, though.

I agree with your point in your last sentence though. Considering that that is the most vital point of the argument here, I guess the only thing our thoughts gets aparted is that you're more concentrated on the ethics of looking at any product that may be loyal to any genre, but I'm more thinking about the ethics of heavy metal only.

[Secret Fawful]

Originally Posted by Falanca

I said it was for fun, not you, and it's not an important point anyway. You wouldn't be cracking skulls to feel saddened about them. It'd be pointless. I wanted to point out that being entertained by killing stuff is a norm of heavy metal.

It's not like you kill stuff covering yourself time to time, trying to hit vital points and use different items... You know, USE a STRATEGY. Fighting by the aid of thinking exist, but if we're talking about heavy metal; your willpower and manliness is where you get your strength from. No strategy, no need to be smart.

Smart people like art. Smart people listen to music. Heavy metal is a genre in which many instruments and harmony is used, it's a well developed music genre, and many of its followers are aware of this fact. I did not like your generalization here.

Outer beauty of the female is a recurring theme of heavy metal, and it's used in the game in a reasonable amount.

I came to this conclusion of the argument not being objective because you said there is no need to impose moralism to heavy metal. I generalized your thoughts from this point, and it's not the ideal way to determine things, so I'm sorry. I still strictly disagree with you there, though.

I agree with your point in your last sentence though. Considering that that is the most vital point of the argument here, I guess the only thing our thoughts gets aparted is that you're more concentrated on the ethics of looking at any product that may be loyal to any genre, but I'm more thinking about the ethics of heavy metal only.

Not true, actually. "Cracking skulls" can come under the category of good vs. evil and duty to vanquish evil. Eddie is doing it for the fun of it, and he doesn't come under the header of largest lobe. I think that the female main would fall more under the vanquisher category, and this is a category with brains coming with it. So she is not a brainless character even though she is a badass.

Look, I do have a generalized view of heavy metal. As far as I know, it's used mainly to build up tension then release it. I can't hear the complexity of the harmony, and I'm tone deaf so I can't get the point of it I'm afraid. I also don't really understand your concept of feminine beauty and its relationship to the genre so I'm at a loss to argue your point there. However if what you're saying is true, then it's still ridiculous to get uptight about the portrayal of the women because it is already a moral/idealistic portrayal of feminine beauty in the tone of the genre???

I'd appreciate it if you could help me better understand your point of view, and explain a bit more.

[Falanca]

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

Not true, actually. "Cracking skulls" can come under the category of good vs. evil and duty to vanquish evil. Eddie is doing it for the fun of it, and he doesn't come under the header of largest lobe. I think that the female main would fall more under the vanquisher category, and this is a category with brains coming with it. So she is not a brainless character even though she is a badass.

Look, I do have a generalized view of heavy metal. As far as I know, it's used mainly to build up tension then release it. I can't hear the complexity of the harmony, and I'm tone deaf so I can't get the point of it I'm afraid. I also don't really understand your concept of feminine beauty and its relationship to the genre so I'm at a loss to argue your point there. However if what you're saying is true, then it's still ridiculous to get uptight about the portrayal of the women because it is already a moral portrayal of feminine beauty in the tone of the genre???

I'd appreciate it if you could help me better understand your point of view, and explain a bit more.

I more think like, not using your wit NOT equals to being stupid or brainless. It's just like, being smart is not important. Be smart or not, you'll still need to use your axe.

Heavy metal is a genre that makes use of excitement and adrenaline rush. Bravery and manliness have a big importance in the atmosphere of it. Men symbolize the strength, and women symbolize the beauty. It's about the feeling and the explanation of self (or many selves), so it's more of an art rather than porn; EVEN the most virile presentations.

I'm not the one who is uptight about it (it was Lena_P I guess), you're thinking like that because we're argueing. We're saying basically the same thing, but I sensed lack of knowledge of the general feel of heavy metal in you, and wanted to correct you.

[Secret Fawful]

Originally Posted by Falanca

I more think like, not using your wit NOT equals to being stupid or brainless. It's just like, being smart is not important. Be smart or not, you'll still need to use your axe.

Heavy metal is a genre that makes use of excitement and adrenaline rush. Bravery and manliness have a big importance in the atmosphere of it. Men symbolize the strength, and women symbolize the beauty. It's about the feeling and the explanation of self (or many selves), so it's more of an art rather than porn; EVEN the most virile presentations.

I'm not the one who is uptight about it (it was Lena_P I guess), you're thinking like that because we're argueing. We're saying basically the same thing, but I sensed lack of knowledge of the general feel of heavy metal in you, and wanted to correct you.

Yeah okay.

[Falanca]

Uh-uh.

[Secret Fawful]

Pretty much.

[Falanca]

Indeed.

[Secret Fawful]

I see you are a man who likes to have the last word. I will not be drawn into such a game.

...


(Yep.)

[Katsuro]

Best thing about it:
We still discuss it. And as long such topics will get discussed its a good thing. No matter who has which opinion.

Also I am the one with the last word. Suck it up

[Icedhope]

Originally Posted by Katsuro

Best thing about it:
We still discuss it. And as long such topics will get discussed its a good thing. No matter who has which opinion.
Also I am the one with the last word. Suck it up

Sorry Katsuro, I am now the one with the last words.

[Falanca]

Icedhope is right.

[DoctorCello]

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. Are we seriously having a discussion on whether Brutal Legend is misogynist or not?

...el-oh-el. Lemme preface this by saying I'm a lady woman.

Firstly, the game isn't completely devoid of attractive men (ladies and gents, I present to you Lars Halford). But let's say there isn't. There's just sexy ladies and unsexy men. So what? Anyone who's played Brutal Legend knows that all of the female characters are strong warrior types who don't play the role of the damsel-in-distress. I know the teaser trailer features Eddie being surrounded by a harem of ladies, but you don't actually get a harem in the game (not to my knowledge anyway; to be honest I just go to the part with the swamp). Ophelia, Lita, and Rima are total badasses that shouldn't be so unfairly judged just because they're easy on the eyes.

Actually, you know what? Just read this article. It pretty much summarizes what I'm trying to say.

[Falanca]

Originally Posted by DoctorCello

I'm a lady woman.

I've been taught that double negative makes a solid positive, so that means you're a man?

Originally Posted by DoctorCello

Firstly, the game isn't completely devoid of attractive men (ladies and gents, I present to you Lars Halford). But let's say there isn't. There's just sexy ladies and unsexy men. So what? Anyone who's played Brutal Legend knows that all of the female characters are strong warrior types who don't play the role of the damsel-in-distress. I know the teaser trailer features Eddie being surrounded by a harem of ladies, but you don't actually get a harem in the game (not to my knowledge anyway; to be honest I just go to the part with the swamp). Ophelia, Lita, and Rima are total badasses that shouldn't be so unfairly judged just because they're easy on the eyes.

Correct.

I'm still not sure why having a harem is a bad thing, though.

[Secret Fawful]

Originally Posted by Falanca

Icedhope is right.

Indeed he is. And indeed you are.

Also harems aren't bad; it depends on the culture and if the man has the responsibility and kindness to treat the women with respect as the beautiful creatures that they are.