Are Telltale listening to the complaints about the difficulty-level of their games?

[jp-30]

As has been said, Telltale need to attract a new audience with these games in order to survive. If that means starting the series fairly easy to hook and 'train' new players, so be it. Most games have an easier 'training' level or two at the start. As that isn't an option in a game as short as Sam & Max, then one could expect the difficulty to increase in each subsequent episode.

Just look at the difficulty level in Out From Boneville (BONE 1) compared to the Graet Cow Race (BONE 2).

I have every confidence the difficulty and wackiness will increase as the season progresses.

[numble]

My argument is not talking about thinking about a solution a bit--take a look at Old Man Murray's theory for the death of adventure games or listen to the Broadcast Gamer podcast, where they discuss Culture Shock and adventure games in general--it may be just a random podcast to you or me, but Telltale deemed them important enough to give them a copy of the game in advance.

I'm discussing puzzles akin to the "use paper cup with golf ball retriever and make a bungee rope with twine (after a whole bunch of puzzles to get the twine) so that you can bungee jump with it to retrieve a piece of tar." Or the puzzle described in Old Man Murray's article. They require a lot more than "thinking about solutions for a little bit." You need hours to figure out something like that, some people even have to leave the game for a couple of days before trying to figure it out. In today's games, and today's world of gamers--is it really that surprising that people actually are turned off if they're required to spend 2 hours to get pass the equivalent of a locked door? And nearly every adventure game puzzle basically boils down to finding a key (solution) to open a locked door (puzzle).

[Tobias]

Give a man a fish and he has food for the day, teach a man to fish and he has food for a lifetime. If a student doesn't keep up in school, he gets to go to special classes (play an easier game, if you will) you do not force the rest of the class to sit through lectures about stuff they already know.

Not everyone can read, so lets all make picture-books, then they will appeal to everyone, right? Wrong, the people who can read will find these books unappealing. Which is why it is absolutely ridiculous to dumb down (if you pardon the expression) games to make them more accessible, alot of people will find this ungratifying and disappointing.

I saw many puzzle opportunities in Culture Shock that were pretty much handed to the player on a silver platter, I will not go into all of the due to spoilers but the creation of the helmet has already been mentioned and it's a good example of what made me disappointed.

[0renji]

But books and classes are not a new idea - they are not just starting up, they do not rely on new players (readers, students) to be successful. If ALL books were Shakespeare-ish length and language (if we take that as the equivalent to HtR), hardly anyone would bother reading. MOST people in the civilised world CAN read; MOST people in the world DON'T play adventure games.

"A lot of people"? I'm just not sure how many adventure gamers there ARE any more. But I might be wrong! I don't really check statistics!

Although now that I think about it, I'm probably underestimating how smart most people are. Even they would probably get that antenna puzzle straight away. Hmmm... I wouldn't know unless I tested the game on a few non-gamers.

[Tobias]

I'm not saying all games should be hardcore, there are easier games out there and that's fine. But barely getting any puzzles from a genre built around puzzles is not fine, adventure games were created because some developers felt that games could be alot more sophisticated than what was currently available, that was the appeal of adventure games.

If you remove that part you're essentially killing what made us interested in the genre in the first place. Creating an option for people to play the game with a tuned down difficulty is a good option, and if people are offended by the fact that they're not "smart enough" for the full version, well tough luck. But don't ruin the experience for people who are expecting more.

There are games out there that I'm no good at, I've never quite been able to wrap my head around complicated war strategy games, too much to keep track of at once. But I don't expect the developers to ruin those games for the people who do enjoy them just so I can have a click-to-win button. I much prefer the tranquil experience of solving good puzzles in an adventure game, there's something extremely satisfying about finally figuring out a puzzle that you have been stuck on for a while - I never got that out of Culture Shock.

[Hero1]

If they take their time increasing the difficulty I'm afraid they are gonna lose a lot of fans...

Telltale said themselves before Sam & Max came out they are targeting the seasoned adventure gamer.. This isn't Bone.. You think the 30, 000 people that signed that petition to save freelance police are gonna struggle to figure out culture shock.. 30, 000 X a $9 is 270, 000 an episode.. you dont want to lose your core audience to appease a few casual gamers who may only stick around for an episode or two..

[numble]

The high cost of developing games means that games have to be successful. But writing a book is another story.

There are 30 people listed as Telltale staff, it would cost a million dollars a year just to pay them the average salary in America, and probably 2-3 million+ to pay them the going rate in the computer games industry. Add in costs for computers and bandwidth, office space, advertising, music creators, voice actors and everything else associated with game production, and its going to be a hefty production cost.

As I said before, if adventure games were extremely profitable, Lucasarts and Sierra would still be making them left and right.

I do not fault Telltale for altering the adventure-game formula to try to reach a larger pool of customers.

[briankory]

Oh ....ok..I need to stop being such an ass hole . Telltale its perfect the way it is.

[jp-30]

Originally Posted by Tobias

If you remove that part you're essentially killing what made us interested in the genre in the first place.

I'm here for the story, the jokes, the writing, the environments... the fun. I'm not here to be able to sit in smug satifaction that I used maple syrup on cat hair to make a fake moustache to disguise myself as somebody who doesn't have a moustache (for example).

I will admit that for some the puzzles ARE the enjoyment. For me though, they're just the mechanism by which to progress the story and set up the jokes.

Don't get me wrong, I love figuring out puzzles too, but they're certainly not the top reason why I like adventure games as a genre.

[Hero1]

Originally Posted by numble

I do not fault Telltale for altering the adventure-game formula to try to reach a larger pool of customers.

Why cant you reach the same pool of customers with a harder game? I think its a dangerous thing to dumb things down with a property like Sam & Max..

[Hero1]

Originally Posted by jp-30

I'm here for the story, the jokes, the writing, the environments... the fun. I'm not here to be able to sit in smug satifaction that I used maple syrup on cat hair to make a fake moustache to disguise myself as somebody who doesn't have a moustache (for example).

Whenever the difficulty question is raised someone brings up this point which I think is unfair. No one is asking for ridiculous puzzles when they say they want it harder. If the only item in a room is a piece of cheese, and you have to use the cheese to solve the puzzle, that's just not even a challenge. Dave Grossman is an excellent game designer, all the solutions in culture shock made perfect sense, it was just too easy to get there. Puzzles are not the be all and end all of adventure games, but they are an important ingredient. You need all working, humour/story/puzzles etc to make a great game.

[numble]

I expect it to be harder; I don't expect it to reach the insane levels of difficulty we've seen in the past however--Heather Logas--one of Telltale's game designers--is quoted in an article at mixnmojo.com saying that she is not a fan of puzzles being too illogical:

"Personally, even though they can be tricky and require a lot of tuning, I like designing the mini-games/puzzles because it's fun and sometimes just as much a puzzle to design it as to play it. I think the hardest for me is the traditional adventure game inventory based puzzles. I am very resistant to puzzles that just don't make any logical sense to the player, so it is sometimes really hard to figure out a puzzle that makes sense and isn't completely ridiculous. It takes a lot of work, a lot of brain-storming, and a lot of bouncing ideas off other people in the office. And then you have to hope that the gamers' brains will work like your brain and the brains of the people you've bounced it off of. Occasionally we'll come up with something that isn't completely satisfying but in order to get the game done we just have to leave it."

[jp-30]

Don't forget perspective. Back in 1993 we didn't have the internet to run to as soon as we got stuck. We had to give the game to our friends play the game with our friends to have a new perspective on puzzles where we were stuck. You could write to a gaming magazine for a hint, but that'd take 2 or 3 months to get back to you anyway.

We're also 13 years more experienced in game playing (and in life) now, so maybe the internet, and us getting older is partially a factor in the new game's relative ease.

[jp-30]

Originally Posted by Hero1

Whenever the difficulty question is raised someone brings up this point which I think is unfair. No one is asking for ridiculous puzzles when they say they want it harder. If the only item in a room is a piece of cheese, and you have to use the cheese to solve the puzzle, that's just not even a challenge. Dave Grossman is an excellent game designer, all the solutions in culture shock made perfect sense, it was just too easy to get there. Puzzles are not the be all and end all of adventure games, but they are an important ingredient. You need all working, humour/story/puzzles etc to make a great game.

My quote was a direct response to the assertation that "we're only here for the puzzles" which, for many, is absolutely untrue.

[Hero1]

Hey I agree, you dont wanna get caught up in 1 thing like the puzzles, and ignore the fact that culture shock was a great game. The animation, music, writing, voices, characters etc etc was all excellent. I just get a little worried when people say that the difficulty was perfect, cause from my perspective, and reading a lot of the reviews that was the only sticking point from this being a 10 out of 10 game.

[Tobias]

Originally Posted by jp-30

Back in 1993 we didn't have the internet

Sure we did.

But frankly, I do not see what internet has to do with the difficulty of this game. I'm not one of those people who run off to read a walkthrough as soon as I'm stuck, that's cheating.

I wouldn't be here complaining about the lack of puzzles if I actually got stuck somewhere.

[Yandros]

The curse of monkey island and monkey island 2 had two modes: Easy and Hard. Why can't we just have that again?

[jp-30]

Originally Posted by Tobias

Sure we did.

It may have existed, but it wasn't available in everyone's house. And even then, outside of Usenet, there weren't many places to get game walkthroughs.

Originally Posted by Tobias

But frankly, I do not see what internet has to do with the difficulty of this game. I'm not one of those people who run off to read a walkthrough as soon as I'm stuck, that's cheating.

You might not be one to run off, but there are plenty here who do.

I understand you thought the puzzles weren't hard enough. I could have done with a few extended ones (elsewhere I've suggested finding ammo for the tear grenade launcher, finding a key for the office closet etc) too.

But I totally understand and agree with the logic behind making the first episode on the easy side to attract a new audience - because without a new audience to tap into (or resurrecting an audience that hasn't played an adventure in 10 years), Telltale is going to struggle.

[Hero1]

why would they struggle ressurecting an audience? Thats where I think people underestimate Sam & Max. LucasArts sure did, look at the response to freelance police's cancellation. People grew up with hit the road, they love that game, its part of their childhood, they still play it to this day. I think its the funniest game ever made and its definitely considered a classic. Tapping into the existing hit the road fans, and just giving them an awareness that a sequel is out now is a good tactic. Oh well I better go do something constructive now I think i'm repeating myself

[Tobias]

Originally Posted by jp-30

It may have existed, but it wasn't available in everyone's house. And even then, outside of Usenet, there weren't many places to get game walkthroughs.

BBSes were still going strong back then.

Originally Posted by jp-30

But I totally understand and agree with the logic behind making the first episode on the easy side to attract a new audience

I'm all for attracting new players to the genre, I just don't see why you have to scare off the old fans in the process.

I've already suggested how they can make the game appeal to both veterans and novices, it's a little more work but it should be worth it if it ends up selling to a bigger audience. Right now I see lots of people passing up on the game because they've overheard it was too easy mumbling something about how they might get it once all six episodes are released - and that can't be good for business.