:: [Spoilers] Chapter 4: Trial & Execution ::

[yoshiwam]

Originally Posted by Miaharpy

true... But when you think it, there was this one part in Revenge that wasn't funny when Guybrush was talking to Lechuck (after Lechuck's limbs been ripped off).

The end of Revenge wasn't funny or cool in any way indeed, loads of people agree to that, CMI totally made amends for that too and resumed the trusted monkey island atmosphere. But you know that the end of MI2 is off, so you caught my drift.

Originally Posted by Miaharpy

I think Telltale was just adding more of an actual story. Still keeping humor in it, but making it emotional too.

that's what the discussion is all about ^^;;

[Miaharpy]

Originally Posted by yoshiwam

The end of Revenge wasn't funny or cool in any way indeed, loads of people agree to that, CMI totally made amends for that too and resumed the trusted monkey island atmosphere. But you know that the end of MI2 is off, so you caught my drift.


that's what the discussion is all about ^^;;

Well, you were making it sound like it was a problem to make it more story-like. If you asked me, all that happened in the 4th chapter almost made me think it was a movie and when I play it, I want to know what happens more.

I like angst and suspense you see ^^

[Capotasto]

Originally Posted by yoshiwam

hey everybody!

I've skimmed through some reviews, opinions and first impressions of people on this site concerning the fourth chapter of Tales. Mostly people are very content with the revelations the fourth chapter brought forth, which is an awesome job, TellTale!

With that said, I'd still like to share some issues that bother me, concerning the Trial & Execution of Guybrush Threepwood. To be quite honest and blunt, I was a little disappointed with some fundamental aspects of this chapter.

Inventory
Every piece of inventory seemed like a very random piece of rubbish ^^;; why not come up with everyday items like scissors, cutlery, bubblegum, cork, needles, mallet, chisel, cheese (most of CMI's items, except for the sudden random-spam inside the snake) and use these in a smart, clever and logical puzzle. What's with the leg-shaped lamp, the glass eyeball with superpowers, 6 different warm liquids, envelopped voodoo-summons. They seem like a very cheap way to integrate inventory in puzzle set-ups (less is more, basic items make puzzle more clever). And really, Tales really has an overkill on coupons, maps and the usage of the hook for lockpicking purposes.

Stan
Another issue is Stan. Stan is by far my all time favorite character from the Monkey Island series! I was secretly hoping he'd turn up as a lawyer in court with his awesome retorical arm-spamming and sexy voice and eyebrow movements that'd make you buy anything he'd sell! ("Welcome to the mutual of Staan ~~"). Alas, with his voice actor and goofy and chubby appearance, I experienced his character as very annoying and unlikeable. With the original Stan from MI2 and CMI, I felt bad for him when I locked him in a coffin or gave him a sad face with the death certificate just to solve a puzzle (which is superfunny and comically charming), but now he just didn't do it for me, I couldn't care less what happened to Stan.

Drama
That simply didn't add up.. It seems very inconsistent to my previous Monkey Island experiences. And I did -not- like angry guybrush. I wonder how this all will unfold in the series finale.

DeSinge
It seems like the Monkey Island series is developping a new stereotype. Just like Ozzie from EMI, DeSinge is a dislikeable ausländer that seeks control of a supernatural (superlative) superpower but gets smashed violently like a bug in the process (grinded to pulp like ozzie/shredded to bits like DeSinge). This isn't necessarily a bad thing. I don't know what to make of it actually.

I'm not trying to complain towards TellTale with this post! In fact, they've certainly provided several truely epic and memorable Monkey Island moments throughout the chapters! (voodoo lady tarot, face-off challenge, awesome characters like DeSinge, Morgan, Bugeye and Anemone). Also this chapter had some thrills in store for me :3 The interior of the courtroom and the SCUMM-feel at Club 41 were breathtaking!! I'm also very excited to see what will happen in chapter 5!

I just wanted to share my thoughts on chapter 4 with all you monkey-fans on the forum! I'm really curious to what you're opinions are to the points mentioned above! So please react ^^

Much love to TellTale and fans <3
yoshiwam ~

I gotta disagree for the most part. My view is that each episode becomes more cunning and entertaining as the story progresses, I can only stand in awe as I wonder what glees the final episode will give us. Well, here's my response to your post friend.

Inventory
While I agree that there's a bit of an overkill on paper in my inventory, I've no distaste for carrying, for example, the 6 different liquids. Having said this, I wouldn't mind carrying a few more ordinary items as you suggest. It all depends on how they're used, and how they're acquired.
I disagree with you on the hook. Every time we get to use that thing for lockpicking, or any other purpose, it brings a smile to my face. I -like- the hook and it's uses. It was kept fresh for me by Guybrush's little monologue before he uses it the final time on the chest.
7/10 I'd say. Nothing here was wrong, and a lot was right.

Stan
Well I can see why you were disappointed with Stan. His arm flailing seemed to have been toned down a few notches since the last time I saw the gent, but the fundamentals of his character were still there. The wheeling, the dealing, the merchandising!
I particularly enjoyed the characters references to past games, and more so the reference to the map D'oro bought from him, I never expected that easter egg to prove useful!
Overall: 50:50

Drama
This one I really can't agree with you on. I'll highlight a few examples of things I'd like to see more of.
First and foremost, what I want LOTS more of, is fights. Telltale has really nailed creating dramatic instances such as the fight between Morgan and Elaine. I didn't want that battle to end. However I was disappointed that they only had two things they could do.
I also loved the way you could compliment Morgan. She's quickly risen to be one of my favorite characters, which brings me to my next illustration of good drama.
Morgan's death. This caused me genuine upset in reality. As soon as I saw her corpse I felt real pain. If Guybrush had responded any other way I'd have felt angry or annoyed at his character. I wanted bloody revenge on De Singe... And I needed Guybrush to want it too.
The plot is becoming better every episode.
9/10 (Go on... Top it)

DeSinge
Personally, I never liked De Singe. Whiney, irritating, and pathetic... I didn't enjoy his presence in chapter one. But... As the episodes continue he developed a more evil persona which helped me see him as the villain. Despite this, it wasn't until Morgan's death that I actually respected him as a villain, and changed from wanting to push him off the island so I can get on with my quest, to wanting him dead as part of it. Just in time to scrape a decent score.
5/10

We agree that telltale has created a bloody good game so far. If they can see this through to the end, then I'm going to impregnate my girlfriend just so my kids will be old enough to play it before all the software becomes incompatible with whatever nightmare microsoft unleashes on us.

Later gents.

[yoshiwam]

Along with Germans and Danish people, a Dutchee like me knows "angst" like no other :3
You've made your point, Miaharpy, I'm just less appeciative towards the unseen character traids that we came across because of the dramatic complexity.

[Miaharpy]

*Sweatdrops at Capotasto's post* It was bad enough to read all of the first post.... *Sighes* It's really a person's point of view of the game. If you ask me, the Telltale team did a pretty good job on the 4th chapter.... Not as buggy as the 2nd chapter was lol

[Ignatius]

For me too, the drama scenes were out of place. And not because i think it cant go with MI, in fact i would loved good, and most important, accurate drama scenes.

My problem is that they were not original at all.
In humor you got good jokes and bad jokes, and in drama you got good drama and bad drama.
This had lots of common places.

To make it short, for me, the "emotional" scenes felt like bubbles that werent at all blended with the game. And it has nothing to do with drama itself, but with the way it is brought. When it comes to dead, its always solemn gestures and big words, and i thought MI was beyond that.

Silence, face expresions, and maybe good tiny drops of acid-sad humor, could have done wonders.

[LordSky]

Even if Morgan betrayed Guybrush at the end of Ch3, I think no one wanted her dead. A pox maybe, but not killed.

[Pretender]

guybrush and morgan will see each other in the underworld or something and in the end I expect them both to be alive again..

[Fronzel]

Something just struck me as kind of odd about Stan. Wasn't he awfully friendly? Even though he remembers all the horrible things Guybrush has done to him, he seems to like the guy.

In the original two games, he was a very phony person. Pretended to like you but forgot about you as soon as you were out of sight, and constantly tried to cheat you.

Odd change, that. What's the deal?

Originally Posted by yoshiwam

The end of Revenge wasn't funny or cool in any way indeed, loads of people agree to that, CMI totally made amends for that too and resumed the trusted monkey island atmosphere.

You think there's continuity between the tones of SMI and CMI? You're not paying enough attention.

SMI is sometimes called "a serious pirate story with jokes". Stan and Guybrush are the only characters that really stand out, along with a few oddities like a vending machine and ear-swab key. The rest is straight.

CMI, on the other hand, is very silly from start to finish. The cartoon art-style is apt.

This is quite regardless of which games you or anyone else liked better than others. CMI is a large departure from the earlier games.

[Diduz]

Originally Posted by VickyL

Oh it's not the death. I expected Guybrush, from the title, of course. Morgan's was fine from a story-telling point of view. And there was little else that could be done about Desinge, seeing as he's a villain. But an attempt to make it darker by killing off a bunch of characters cheapens the whole experience. Any one would have been fine by itself.

You know what made the whole Monkey Island series original for me?
The final fight between Guybrush and LeChuck at the end of Monkey 2.
Really.
I've always thought that, and I was disappointed to see the series going down in a laugh-out-loud style in MI3 and MI4. Tales is trying to recapture that zany (and weird) mix of drama/gothic and comedy.
You may say the MI2 ending is just a tiny part of the first two episodes canon, but it's so original, strong and surprising that IMHO characterizes the whole MI experience. I don't remember Monkey Island for being a Pirates of the Caribbean parody, I liked the series because its strange and ambiguous atmosphere.
Tales is disturbing and schizophrenic again, and I LOVE Telltale for bringing back that spin.

BTW, I wasn't that surprised by Guybrush's death (as you said, you could read it in the title, after all), but Morgan's death is perfectly executed.
I don't think they're cheap, because - given that Guybrush is so important in the series - I bet the whole "idea" of death will be a bit shattered.

[yoshiwam]

Originally Posted by Fonzel

You think there's continuity between the tones of SMI and CMI? You're not paying enough attention.

I was referring to the whole new reality brought forth at the -end- of MI2, where LeChuck is just a man-in-a-suit (and GT recognizes him as his creepy brother Chuckie). CMI made ammends for this by going to the piratey Puerto Pollo. And as for the background style: The manor on Phatt Island was cartoony too, so was the drunk on the small island near Phatt and the chef running around the house on Booty (just a few examples), CMI's style was ofcourse more exaggerated, but imo not extremely inconsisten with the previous episode.

[Terr002]

This episode made me cry. Twice. In the 'Titanic'-manner of crying, the good one.

At first I had the feeling this episode wouldn't be as great as Ep3, but afterwards I realized I thought this was the best epicsode so far. I guess I love cut-scenes. Especially dramatic ones.

[Miaharpy]

It seems people just don't like drama in a good game.... I don't know why, it makes a good story. (Not you Yoshiwam, you're okay ^_^. You're good too Terr002) I understand if it was 'unexpected' but stuff like that is great (writing fanfics and stories, I know a good drama when I see one)

Morgan dying is really unexpected, but heck, everything that happens in Monkey Island is suppose to be unexpected. (Like Guybrush wearing a dress in Revenge!) They are most likely going to bring her back.

[Kroms]

Originally Posted by yoshiwam

This is not the only chapter with drama ofcourse, it was built up from the end of chapter 1, and it was bound to climax. It doesn't feel like Monkey Island I know

I think what you mean is, "It isn't Monkeys 1-3." You know it's the same people doing the games, right? They know what they're doing.

Change isn't bad.

The deaths weren't cheap at all, either. Morgan's was unexpected, sad because of Guybrush's reaction and respectful silence. The Marquis' was amazing because it slowly builds-up to it. He actually falls down, hurt, reaches for the Juice of Life, the music slowly but surely builds-up, and he falls to die one of the darkest deaths in any video game I have ever seen.

The one with Guybrush is special for two reasons. One, LeChuck's words.

"-- in unholy matrimony."
"Unholy what?"
"Unholy this!"

It's the exact same phrase used at the beginning, which was funny then, sad now. Sort of like seeing Charlie Chaplin slip on a banana peel, fall into a hole at the beginning of the movie, and then find him dead from that injury at the end.

But Elaine elevates the scene. She's distraught over Guybrush's death. That scene is a stomp-on-the-head reminder as to why she was so lovable in the first place. And the "You fight like a dairy farmer" exchange at the end was...distressingly sad, to put it mildly.

Originally Posted by Frenzel

SMI is sometimes called "a serious pirate story with jokes". Stan and Guybrush are the only characters that really stand out, along with a few oddities like a vending machine and ear-swab key. The rest is straight.

CMI, on the other hand, is very silly from start to finish. The cartoon art-style is apt.

This is quite regardless of which games you or anyone else liked better than others. CMI is a large departure from the earlier games.

What on earth? SMI was joke after joke. The Shopkeeper, Carla the Swordmaster, the cannibals...At what point did you think the Melee Island t-shirt was an actual treasure? Guybrush flying out of a cannon, that wasn't serious, was it? The entire fight insult swordfighting thing?

And CMI was not "very silly". It had a cartoony look, sure, and some cartoony elements. But reuniting undead lovers to steal the diamond ring off of a undead corpse is not something you'll find in Scooby Doo.

You know, I'm getting tired of so many people saying SMI-MI2 were "for reals," and CMI sucking because Ron Gilbert had not been involved. It's a bit of an insult to the makers, thinking that SMI was supposed to be a through-and-through serious story.

[yoshiwam]

Originally Posted by Kroms

"-- in unholy matrimony."
"Unholy what?"
"Unholy this!"

- Now that kicked mega-monkey butt!! I quoted that in several threads here already :3
- I referred to Morgan's death as drama-laden, not as cheap, at all

It's just superweird seeing guybrush in such serious distress. It's a whole new direction in the Monkey Island franchize. I love the drama in the King's Quest series, Zelda and LBA for instance, that's why I buy the stuffs, but I play monkey island to:

Originally Posted by meself..

Solve puzzles whilst laughing off my fundament

preferably without flooding my eyes by dramatic scenes. ^o^;;;

[Miaharpy]

Originally Posted by yoshiwam

- Now that kicked mega-monkey butt!! I quoted that in several threads here already :3
- I referred to Morgan's death as drama-laden, not as cheap, at all

It's just superweird seeing guybrush in such serious distress. It's a whole new direction in the Monkey Island franchize. I love the drama in the King's Quest series, Zelda and LBA for instance, that's why I buy the stuffs, but I play monkey island to:

preferably without flooding my eyes by dramatic scenes. ^o^;;;

Yeah, I understand about Guybrush being all distressed. And it must've surprised almost everyone. And to tell you the truth, I like it. I think after playing chapter 4, you learn a little bit more about Guybrush's personality like how he acts when he's upset.

[Kroms]

Originally Posted by yoshiwam

- Now that kicked mega-monkey butt!! I quoted that in several threads here already :3
- I referred to Morgan's death as drama-laden, not as cheap, at all

It's just superweird seeing guybrush in such serious distress. It's a whole new direction in the Monkey Island franchize. I love the drama in the King's Quest series, Zelda and LBA for instance, that's why I buy the stuffs, but I play monkey island to:

preferably without flooding my eyes by dramatic scenes. ^o^;;;

But a serious emotional reaction is something that makes the laughs all the more endearing. It makes the story more memorable. If you're scared for them, and they come to harm, it's that much more sad; and if they come out OK, you feel that much happier.

Sam and Max Season Two had that. You actually felt worried for the characters. Same with Grim Fandango.

Wheras Strong Bad, it's just...you know, walk in, laugh a bit, go on "an epic quest" to find the dragon-that-is-your-arcade-game, laugh a lot. (And in my case, laugh so much you get a headache.) You feel no real emotional involvement (apart from thinking "Man this guy is funny") because I don't think Homestar, lovable as he is, will come to harm.

I think the best kinds of stories are ones that balance out the tragic with the comic, as life so often does. Tales did that. It's why In Bruges is such a good movie.

Trust me, try accepting it and you'll wonder why it isn't done more often.

I'll quote myself from earlier, whilst talking about Spinner Cay.

To go with that for a second, a lot of this game rides on Guybrush as a character. He's really struggling in this one, not least because he has to treat LeChuck as a friend and then work with him. Their back-and-forth relationship even extends to a neat puzzle that gives you an opportunity to make a little fun of LeChuck.

[Mataku]

Originally Posted by Miaharpy

true... But when you think it, there was this one part in Revenge that wasn't funny when Guybrush was talking to Lechuck (after Lechuck's limbs been ripped off). I think Telltale was just adding more of an actual story. Still keeping humor in it, but making it emotional too. You shouldn't get upset at the game just because of what you just played in the latest chapter.

Well, first off, I really don't get why people find that part in MI2 to be not funny. The whole segment is a huge Star Wars parody, and had some ironic dark humor lines for you to choose from.
As for telltale, I think people are confusing between atmosphericall darkness, which was the sort of darkness that you had in the first games (Cemetery in MI2 including reviving Rapp, which had some of the funniest convo trees ever, and blood island in CMI). In tales, they went into an emotional darkness, which is very different, and makes the game feel heavy, because after a death of a character, can you really laugh at anything Guybrush says and not have it feel out of place? it feels like a giant weight on the game's shoulders. Can you honestly tell me that you felt emotionally drained after reviving Rapp or being in blood island?

[yoshiwam]

Originally Posted by Kroms

But a serious emotional reaction is something that makes the laughs all the more endearing. It makes the story more memorable. If you're scared for them, and they come to harm, it's that much more sad; and if they come out OK, you feel that much happier.

Sam and Max Season Two had that. You actually felt worried for the characters. Same with Grim Fandango.

That's a good point you made there. Grim Fandango was breathtaking (the amazing sort of rollercoaster breathtaking), especially because the sadness the death of Lola brought forth and the revenge you took afterwards (all dressed in Death's robe).

A difference is that GT was more like a little (naïve) child compared to Mannie Calavera, especially in the first monkey island and CMI, but since Tales Guybrush certainly has grown up I think.

I hope that TellTale will make chapter five just as memorable (and without a doubt, they will!!) as they've taken Monkey Island in this direction.

I do wonder what Dominic Armato's opinion is on the emotional dialogue!

[Gryffalio]

Originally Posted by yoshiwam

I do wonder what Dominic Armato's opinion is on the emotional dialogue!

I got the vibe on the Dominic Armato Q&A thread before ch.1 that his opinion on any Monkey-Island dialogue whatsoever, even if it meant he had to just be the janitor with one line, was glowing!