Worst puzzle in TMI? (Plus some rambling)

[Kroms]

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

anyway, getting back to what you said about Ron saying the trip to MI in SoMI being part of the Secret itself... let's see. The name of the ship is the Sea Monkey, it was once crewed by monkeys and Herman Toothrot (seperately), Guybrush's crew are a bunch of lazy bums, and getting to the island requires a voodoo spell which accepts random substitutions from the original recipe (ie. Jolly Roger flag instead of an actual skull which had been pressed). how does any of that involve the Secret?

I don't remember exactly, but I think it was something like about the mysterious way in which Guybrush arrives at Monkey Island. I don't know. I'm too tired to listen to the podcast again.

[Hassat Hunter]

Originally Posted by Kroms

It's adventure gaming's equivalent of making a comic book about a superhero who gets sued for damaging the city during his antics.

They've made a movie out of that, you know. And it's pretty good.

As for puzzles. I think my own definition is that they BLOCK the progression of the story. Hence... "puzzle". Once you solve them, the story continues on. If you don't solve them... sorry, no more story for you.
Seeing it like that I really don't mind Nipperkin's little tests.
The puzzle in itself isn't "bad". The Slim of the Senses however I think is, that's why it got my vote of worst puzzle in the game.
Luckily there aren't any absolutely horrible ones around this time (yes, EMI, I am looking at you!).

[Kroms]

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

They've made a movie out of that, you know. And it's pretty good.

Oh yeah? What's it called?

As for puzzles. I think my own definition is that they BLOCK the progression of the story. Hence... "puzzle". Once you solve them, the story continues on. If you don't solve them... sorry, no more story for you.

Oh man, no.

A good puzzle feeds the story, and the story feeds the puzzle. That's why there's always a three or five trial puzzle structure: you don't want to be stuck trying to figure out how to get the guard dog away from the house. You need to be able to do other things that move everything forward. The non-linearity and background interactivity of games like Monkey Island is a workaround.

It'd be completely unfair to bring the entire game to a halt because the player hadn't figured out how to get the key from the dog's stomach. There always has to be progress. Most sucky adventure games have that problem of giving you completely obtuse puzzles that contribute nothing but bad pacing.

More to the point: If you needed a certain object in the second act that could only be picked up in act one, you better give the player a reason to pick up the object. The game can't continue if the player does not have that object, but it has to explain why. You need the ring in Curse; to make sure you take it, the ring is used at the end of chapter one as part of a puzzle solution. You later need the nickels; you can't escape the hold without first picking up the ring, and you can't pick up the ring without the nickels. These are all puzzles that relate to the story. You don't pick up the ring and then not wonder if it's part of the puzzle solution...

A puzzle isn't an obstacle. A puzzle is a tool. You can even use it to reveal character. For example, I'm sure Ben Throttle solves things differently than Bernard Bernoulli does. You can even use it for character development. Let's say Guybrush was trying to atone for what he's done; he's attempting to go back to the land of the dead and bring back Morgan. He has had it with puzzles: it's been a crappy day, and monkeys-on-water-pumps aren't sweetening things up. After finally solving a very difficult puzzle and getting ready to save Morgan, the puzzle twists on itself to form a new puzzle. Guybrush sighs, on the brink of defeat, and then says that he'll do it anyways - for Morgan. If done well, that'd be a good character moment, and it happens because the puzzle fed the story.

This is just really basic stuff. God, can you imagine how unbelievably boring Monkey Island would be if all you did was solve puzzles that had nothing to do with the story? On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd peg it as a -5.

[GuruGuru214]

Originally Posted by Kroms

Oh yeah? What's it called?

The Incredibles.

[Hassat Hunter]

Originally Posted by Kroms

Oh yeah? What's it called?

The Incredibles.

It'd be completely unfair to bring the entire game to a halt because the player hadn't figured out how to get the key from the dog's stomach.

I am going to list a few games that actually do this, you might have heard of them:
SMI, LCR, CMI, EMI, ToMI, Sam&Max (Hit the Road, both TTG seasons), Indiana Jones and the fate of Atlantis, Day of the Tentacle, Syberia, A Vampyre Tale, Full Throttle, Wallace&Gromit, Gabriel Knight (all), Ankh (both), Jack Kane, The Longest Journey... should I go on?
Pretty much all adventures. It's a wee little bit of a trademark of the kind actually.

More to the point: If you needed a certain object in the second act that could only be picked up in act one, you better give the player a reason to pick up the object.

Not related to what I am trying to say. Having the game halt because the gamer doesn't solve a puzzle is common. ALL THE TIME. Having the game halt because of bad game design... that's just unforgivable in this day and age. And (bugs aside) all above don't do that AFAIK.

These are all puzzles that relate to the story. You don't pick up the ring and then not wonder if it's part of the puzzle solution...

Picking up the ring and the nickles are puzzles? I don't quite see it that way. Having to USE the ring on the glass is a puzzle, that's true.
And until you do that, the story doesn't continue... does it now?
Pretty much everything one picks up in adventures (Longest Journey and some misc. items excluded) has to be used in a puzzle sometimes later on. Some items multiple times.
Whenever the item is given doesn't change when it's being used (see: Skeleton Arm, CMI).

A puzzle isn't an obstacle.

Nope. Until you cut the glass, no escape (story advancement). A single or collection of puzzles may eventually resolve in story progression, but until any are solved, no progression for you.
Maybe you call not being allowed to give cheese to a vulcano until you use tools on tofu "story progression" but I call it a puzzle, and until you solve it, no lava, used for yet another puzzle, before your story can progress etc.
ToMI is a little different in that regard compared to the old MI's that more storyprogression happens with less puzzlefrequency to aquire such a progression, but the principle stays the same.

After finally solving a very difficult puzzle and getting ready to save Morgan, the puzzle twists on itself to form a new puzzle. Guybrush sighs, on the brink of defeat, and then says that he'll do it anyways - for Morgan. If done well, that'd be a good character moment, and it happens because the puzzle fed the story.

As I see it. Puzzle... story progressed after solving... another puzzle came up blocking you... solve it! Until you finish the initial puzzle no Guybrush progression at all. Puzzles actually block progression. That's the very definition of "puzzle".

God, can you imagine how unbelievably boring Monkey Island would be if all you did was solve puzzles that had nothing to do with the story?

ToMI did pretty good with Lair of the Leviathan (pretty much 1/2 of it was unrelated to the story).

[apenpaap]

Didn't he get sued for accidentally hurting the guy he was saving's neck, though?

[Kroms]

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

The Incredibles.

Oh, that's not what I meant. I Googled a bit and came-up with Hancock, though.

I am going to list a few games that actually do this, you might have heard of them:
SMI, LCR, CMI, ToMI, Sam&Max (Hit the Road, both TTG seasons)... Day of the Tentacle

Name me one puzzle in those games that halts the entire game. One. (I excluded the others because I either don't remember them well, or haven't played them.)

You completely misinterpreted everything else I said, though. You seem to think that you have to concentrate on one puzzle for the game to move forward, when the non-linearity of the good games allowed you to do other things - related to story - whilst not being stuck in the same place.

But

Picking up the ring and the nickles are puzzles? I don't quite see it that way. Having to USE the ring on the glass is a puzzle, that's true.
And until you do that, the story doesn't continue... does it now?

Picking up the ring is part of the puzzle. The story doesn't technically continue, but that lasts for about five minutes - besides, the game hasn't been brought to a halt. You have a very clear objective: get out. LeChuck is dead. Stuff's over. All Threepwood has to do is get out. There's only one way out.

More importantly, though, is that everything you do in that ship is what causes CMI to happen. A short, "locked room" puzzle that sets-up the story isn't exactly a halt.

[Hassat Hunter]

Originally Posted by Kroms

Oh, that's not what I meant. I Googled a bit and came-up with Hancock, though.

Superhero gets sued for saving somebody that doesn't want to be saved, property damage during an apprehension etc. and has to quite being "super" and lead a normal life, which he can't cope.
How exactly is that not what you mentioned?

Name me one puzzle in those games that halts the entire game. One.

SMI: Okay, can't really remember this one.
LCR: Don't realize the meaning of the song? Sorry kiddo, no proceeding in the game (well, unless you use easy mode)
CMI: Don't realise that you have to have a banjo fight? Sorry, no crew of 3, no sailing to Blood Island.
Hit the Road: Can't find out how to disguish as Bigfoot? No proceeding in the game for you.
Season 1, Episode 5: Don't figure out how to get into your office in cyberspace? No way for you to finish the game.
Season 2, Episode 4: Don't go back in time to fix a leak, no flyer for you, no game proceeding for you...
Day of the Tentacle: Oh man, the amount of times I had to seek up a walkthrough for this one. Okay; 2 words: Hamster, and... freezer.

You seem to think that you have to concentrate on one puzzle for the game to move forward, when the non-linearity of the good games allowed you to do other things - related to story - whilst not being stuck in the same place.

However eventually you HAD to solve that puzzle to proceed. And if you still couldn't solve it, well, you're stuck. Your argument would be true if every puzzle in each game had multiple solutions, but in 98% of the cases, there is just a single solution. Don't get it, don't go on... side-tracking wont help then.

For example the Nipperkin situation you critize, it's the only puzzle in ToMI I had to use a walkthrough. Got the treasure and the fight, got stuck on the ship. And I couldn't proceed until I solved it. No more sidetracking available. Turned out that I had to climb the anchor *again* to set fire to some grease (I would have never thought of that).

The story doesn't technically continue, but that lasts for about five minutes

That's because there are a whole 2 screens. Things tend to get more complicated if 100 screens, 40 items, 3 characters over 3 timelines and stuff get involved (Think: Day of the Tentacle). And you bet you are stuck if not solving EVERY single puzzle in the game.

LeChuck is dead.

He was still very much alive (well... eh... sort off). He only "died" because Guybrush sunk his ship after getting out.

There's only one way out.

And that's my exact point. There is always only 1 way forward (masked with a puzzle). Don't solve it... no continuation of game, or storyline.

More importantly, though, is that everything you do in that ship is what causes CMI to happen.

I can say the same about Tales. Except replace ship with "ships".

[Avistew]

Originally Posted by Kroms

For example, I'm sure Ben Throttle solves things differently than Bernard Bernoulli does.

Originally Posted by Tim Schafer

"As far as the main characters go, it's like this: Let's say Ben and Bernard both walk up to a door. It's locked. The only tool they have to help them get through the door is a ham and cheese sandwich on white (bread). Bernard would inspect the keyhole and see that the key was still in the lock, sticking out the other side. He'd lubricate the floor with mayonnaise from his sandwich, and slide a piece of bread under the door. Then he'd take out the toothpick and use it to push the key back out the hole so it would drop on to the bread and then pull the bread back under (the door), and open the lock with the key. Ben would eat the sandwich and kick down the door."

(I'm supposed to type something that isn't quoted or I can't post)

[Remolay]

Seriously, LeChucks Revenge has Walt the dog, Where you actually have to get the KEY from the dog! If you can't figure out that you have to use the plank with the bone and give the bone to the dog you are out

[Kroms]

Originally Posted by Remolay

Seriously, LeChucks Revenge has Walt the dog, Where you actually have to get the KEY from the dog! If you can't figure out that you have to use the plank with the bone and give the bone to the dog you are out

That's a "locked room" puzzle. Those are usually so easy. They're important to the story (or semi-important, as Phatt's jail was), but because of their non-linearty are mostly designed to be quick affairs. They don't really affect pacing.

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

Superhero gets sued for saving somebody that doesn't want to be saved, property damage during an apprehension etc. and has to quite being "super" and lead a normal life, which he can't cope.
How exactly is that not what you mentioned?

Oh man, I'd totally forgotten about that part. You're right. Never mind.

Though I wish I saw a movie that concentrated on that more. I like The Incredibles, but it falls back on the by-now tiring "Pixar story".

SMI: Okay, can't really remember this one.
LCR: Don't realize the meaning of the song? Sorry kiddo, no proceeding in the game (well, unless you use easy mode)
CMI: Don't realise that you have to have a banjo fight? Sorry, no crew of 3, no sailing to Blood Island.
Hit the Road: Can't find out how to disguish as Bigfoot? No proceeding in the game for you.
Season 1, Episode 5: Don't figure out how to get into your office in cyberspace? No way for you to finish the game.
Season 2, Episode 4: Don't go back in time to fix a leak, no flyer for you, no game proceeding for you...
Day of the Tentacle: Oh man, the amount of times I had to seek up a walkthrough for this one. Okay; 2 words: Hamster, and... freezer.

Most of these puzzles are story-related, though. I'm not talking about their difficulty - maybe actually bringing the game to a halt because of story-related puzzles isn't a bad thing. My entire point is that you can't baffle the player completely over something that isn't completely intertwined with the story. ("Reality 2.0" gets a pass because that was the first somewhat difficult puzzle in Sam and Max).

As such, Nipperkin isn't completely integrated into the story. The story flows, tastes and feels the same without him. I'm just saying that his puzzles should have been part of something else, maybe related to the Narwhal, the pox and DeSinge.

For example the Nipperkin situation you critize, it's the only puzzle in ToMI I had to use a walkthrough. Got the treasure and the fight, got stuck on the ship. And I couldn't proceed until I solved it. No more sidetracking available. Turned out that I had to climb the anchor *again* to set fire to some grease (I would have never thought of that).

No, you just have to run up the plank, and then climb the anchor. Guybrush slides-down the plank, smearing it and the dock with grease, which lights Winslow's coal.

I think you can visit DeSinge at that point, by the way.

That's because there are a whole 2 screens. Things tend to get more complicated if 100 screens, 40 items, 3 characters over 3 timelines and stuff get involved (Think: Day of the Tentacle). And you bet you are stuck if not solving EVERY single puzzle in the game.

And that's my exact point. There is always only 1 way forward (masked with a puzzle). Don't solve it... no continuation of game, or storyline.

The five minutes refers to the part with the treasure hold. There's plenty to do in the room with Wally. I love that part. It teaches you every mechanic in the game, is easy, and makes sure you use everything you pick-up.

Yet, it's all story-related (with the exception of Murray, who's there to keep you company). When there is nothing to do, they give you a ridiculously easy puzzle to work - and one that directly relates to the story. You're in a locked room, but escape quickly. SMI's under-water puzzle was similar, MI2's phatt jail, and TMI04's barfight.

I can say the same about Tales. Except replace ship with "ships".

What's your point? I didn't say Tales didn't do the exact thing. Tales does it even funnier, since the whole thing could've been avoided had Guybrush not been showing-off.

[Hassat Hunter]

Originally Posted by Kroms

No, you just have to run up the plank, and then climb the anchor. Guybrush slides-down the plank, smearing it and the dock with grease, which lights Winslow's coal.

Yeah... I know now.

I think you can visit DeSinge at that point, by the way.

No

What's your point?

No point, just an observation...