Console-exclusive bonuses: an open letter

[SHODANFreeman]

Originally Posted by Pantagruel's Friend

That's actually not quite true. Chuck does represent Telltale, even if he doesn't intend to at times. I see nothing wrong with his post in this thread, though.

Just pretend that every informal post made by every TTG staffer is followed by "This does not represent the official views of TTG or its affiliates etc.", that's what I do and it works great.

[Zonino]

Originally Posted by Pale Man

Just pretend that every informal post made by every TTG staffer is followed by "This does not represent the official views of TTG or its affiliates etc.", that's what I do and it works great.

It's great that the TTG people can come to the forums and hang out with us "lesser mortals", but it does make people go slightly crazy. Anyone who's seen the World of Warcraft forums knows what I mean. The community managers, or "blues" since they post with a blue font, can't even make personal comments without it being scrutinized and mis-quoted by at least 20 different people.

Only one or 2 of them on the American forums are actual game designers, the rest of them are forum moderators, but they all get the blame for everything.

[Hassat Hunter]

Originally Posted by Zonino

Oh god I just saw the tags at the bottom of the page. TTG ate my baby is awesome.

It's been around for a while... once even leading to a discussion about how to best bred babies for consumption...

[Rather Dashing]

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

It's been around for a while... once even leading to a discussion about how to best bred babies for consumption...

Well, baby eating-related tags have been around for a while. "TTG ate my baby" specifically only shows up on this thread(since clicking a tag will bring up every thread tagged with it).

[Hassat Hunter]

Yes... the other one was "telltale eats babies"...

And here's the madness Nikasaur innitiated:
http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/...=15370&page=17

[Jake]

For us it comes down to a balance between complete transparency and the joy of surprising people with something extra, unexpected, and good. With the Penal Zone launch we clearly landed too far away from the "transparency" side with a few of the initiatives, some of the communication was confusing, and it pissed people off because they perceived the "extra stuff nobody was expecting in the first place" as them being "ripped off."

I guess the lesson learned here could be "Don't surprise people, and don't include any 'extra stuff' with your game, lest the people who are getting different 'extra stuff,' or are getting 'just' what they paid for originally, get pissed off about it," because it seems like that's what every "fan" on the internet's first reaction is: to be outraged that we're providing extra content beyond what was originally advertised. Free DVDs, extra psychic powers, hats for Team Fortress, discounts, entire additional platforms to release the game on, etc. How dare we. Telltale is becoming evil!

Fortunately for everyone, we like making awesome surprising stuff too much to stick to that suggestion (or that insinuation) too tightly. Therefore, the real takeaway is to try, in the future, to get the balance right between transparency and surprise, so the surprises don't backfire and throw people into rages they regret when they calm down, or when we either "fix it" or reveal that they weren't left out in the cold after all. It's just as disappointing/frustrating for us as it is for you guys when something we think will be a fun super cool surprise fills our forum with people accusing us of being jerks!

I don't quite know how to do that -- I think the TF2 thing would have been way less fun (for the people who weren't outraged, outraged! by it) if we had announced that a month and a half ago, for instance. It would have been slightly boring in fact. But it would have made fewer people start writhing around on the ground in pain.

[Irishmile]

I think the people who are genuinely angry are a pretty small minority so carry on as you where TTG.

[puzzlebox]

Yes, please continue doing the things that make you awesome and unique.

*clap your hands if you believe in telltale*

[Jake]

Originally Posted by Irishmile

I think the people who are genuinely angry are a pretty small minority so carry on as you where TTG.

No there is a definite issue here, I just don't think the issue is exactly what people say it is (and, agreed, I don't think it's as big an issue as people try to make it out to be). When people are upset you have to look at it as them telling you a problem (even if they think they are providing you with a solution and are screaming that solution at you in all caps). Obviously some of the surprise content didn't sit well with people, so we need to figure out how to do that in a way that does sit better. The solutions provided have been "give everyone everything [sometimes technically impossible]" or "tell us everything first [making there be no surprise and therefore no effectiveness as a promotional tool, or as a way to get even existing customers re-excited as launch gets closer]" or, as I said, the inevitable throw-up-your-hands takeaway we could take as a developer, "I guess just don't do these anymore [the worst, but easiest, solution if this is the behavior it triggers]."

None of those, however, are good solutions, and they would treat the symptom, not the cause. So we'll take this back into our cave and hopefully with our next launch, do equally cool stuff, but tweaked slightly to be seen from a different angle that doesn't bounce off people in a way that ticks them off.

Of course, this is the Internet, so some people will always be pissed off, and that has to be taken into account, but hey.

For instance, I agree with ATMachine that its odd that nothing was said about the NutriSpecs for PC at all even while PS3 players are using them. If our plan all along had been "don't give PC users nutrispecs," we could have at least answered for that, had our reasons, and taken our lumps. Instead, we had something that we thought was far cooler than the PS3 unlock system for PC users, but we went wholly silent on it, and also failed to actually put up the content teasing that it would exist until well after people had already played through their PS3 copies multiple times with the unlock. That's sloppy, and something we could easily fix in the future.

[Crrash]

Originally Posted by Jake

For instance, I agree with ATMachine that its odd that nothing was said about the NutriSpecs for PC at all even while PS3 players are using them. If our plan all along had been "don't give PC users nutrispecs," we could have at least answered for that, had our reasons, and taken our lumps. Instead, we had something that we thought was far cooler than the PS3 unlock system for PC users, but we went wholly silent on it, and also failed to actually put up the content teasing that it would exist until well after people had already played through their PS3 copies multiple times with the unlock. That's sloppy, and something we could easily fix in the future.

cool.


to me that was the issue. Surprises are cool and welcome, but it doesn't work if you continue keeping it secret for most platforms when it was already revealed on one.
But yeah, you got it. so, cool. and i'm looking forward to how it will be handled for the pc version and generally in the future.

thank you for clearing it all up btw.

[Avistew]

I've been avoiding the Sam and Max forums because, well, I can't play it ( waaaaaa ) but as I find the idea of not being able to take part in the forums almost worse than not playing, I've been reading more and more threads that look like they won't be too spoilerish.

I just want to say that you guys are awesome and I love you very, very much. And I totally hear you on trying to keep things a surprise.
I don't know what you can do that will make things better, but I want to give the whole company a big hug because you rock and fill my days with happiness and bouncy, fluffy rainbows.

[LuigiHann]

I'm personally in favor of equal but non-identical bonuses for different platforms, when they make sense. For instance:

Link in the Gamecube version of Soul Calibur 2, with other semi-relevant characters for the other consoles: Cool

Yoda and Darth Vader exclusive to different versions of Soul Calibur 4: Not cool

See, in the first case it made some sense, Link was a lot of fun to play as, and since it wouldn't be possible to license Nintendo's character for use on other consoles, they sought out other cool exclusives for the other consoles.

The Star Wars character thing doesn't make sense at all, since there's no reason why they couldn't appear in the same version (and of course later they were sold as DLC, so for an extra five dollars you could unlock the other character, real classy).

Another cool example was the free DLC in Guitar Hero 3, where PS3 got the God of War theme, and Xbox 360 got the Halo theme. It's a shame that Wii wasn't really supporting DLC at that time, as something from F-Zero or Metroid would have been really awesome there, but overlooking that, it's a rather balanced cross-promotion that makes sense in the context.

So yeah, not sure if anything quite that specific would ever apply to Telltale, but I mean if the TF2 items had been exclusive to Steam, that would have been fine by me, since TF2 is Valve's game. I would appreciate a similar but not necessarily identical bonus for Telltale purchasers (unlocking Sam's suit as a bonus costume for Guybrush in TMI, yes!) but the TTG store version already has a lot of bonuses that Steam doesn't get, so I wouldn't have been offended either way.

[Bloody Eugene]

When I read post like that one of Jake, I think Telltale is one of the best out company there.
The honesty and humilty that he puts in his work is beautiful.

They work so hard trying to make us happy, and if they don't succed it their primary goal is failed. Few companies work like that - think about derivative games, or games with shallow content, ecc.
So I truly believe that every surprise that fails make them unhappy.

Let's face it, sometimes we overreact to things. Instead of being happy of a surprise, we suddenly go anger and ask "where's my stack?" if it's not for our platform.
Let's calm down boys.

I think that now we have to understand how Telltale work. They are almost unique (or rare at least) to have such a direct relationship with players. And they are kind with us.

Jake, please keep in mind that people who write here and complains may not know you and how you work. Players are often treated "not so well" by major game companies: IE "Mass Effect II" for PC is cheaper than PS3; "Assassin's creed II" got extra content for PC that other version doesn't have; "Fifa 2010" had an older 3d engine than the console version; and I can count infinite disparities cases between versions and behaviours in respect of the customers. And because we aren't used to that kindness, we are always fearing that you do the same - try to steal as much money as possible.

But you don't.
You are loyal.

People will understand that, just keep working as you do. Keep in mind that you work in a new manner (episodic, digital delivery, ecc.) and people is new to this, and you are setting the way for the new Videogame Era.
And that people is frightened because it's all too shiny here to be true.

We, as players, have to understand that Telltale respect us and everything they do is intended to please us and that they hate disparities. So if they fail, we can *kindly* tell them our problem - with the same kindness they use with us.

And we have to understand that we can trust Telltale and their choices, and sometimes to be less childish.
Because TT respect us.

[Avistew]

Dammit Eugene, now my post pales in comparison to yours.

I was trying so hard to express how I felt, but sometimes...

*sighs*

[Strong Max]

Originally Posted by Jake

No there is a definite issue here, I just don't think the issue is exactly what people say it is (and, agreed, I don't think it's as big an issue as people try to make it out to be). When people are upset you have to look at it as them telling you a problem (even if they think they are providing you with a solution and are screaming that solution at you in all caps). Obviously some of the surprise content didn't sit well with people, so we need to figure out how to do that in a way that does sit better. The solutions provided have been "give everyone everything [sometimes technically impossible]" or "tell us everything first [making there be no surprise and therefore no effectiveness as a promotional tool, or as a way to get even existing customers re-excited as launch gets closer]" or, as I said, the inevitable throw-up-your-hands takeaway we could take as a developer, "I guess just don't do these anymore [the worst, but easiest, solution if this is the behavior it triggers]."

None of those, however, are good solutions, and they would treat the symptom, not the cause. So we'll take this back into our cave and hopefully with our next launch, do equally cool stuff, but tweaked slightly to be seen from a different angle that doesn't bounce off people in a way that ticks them off.

Of course, this is the Internet, so some people will always be pissed off, and that has to be taken into account, but hey.

For instance, I agree with ATMachine that its odd that nothing was said about the NutriSpecs for PC at all even while PS3 players are using them. If our plan all along had been "don't give PC users nutrispecs," we could have at least answered for that, had our reasons, and taken our lumps. Instead, we had something that we thought was far cooler than the PS3 unlock system for PC users, but we went wholly silent on it, and also failed to actually put up the content teasing that it would exist until well after people had already played through their PS3 copies multiple times with the unlock. That's sloppy, and something we could easily fix in the future.

We love you Jake.

[Bloody Eugene]

Originally Posted by avistew

Dammit Eugene, now my post pales in comparison to yours.

I was trying so hard to express how I felt, but sometimes...

*sighs*

Our posts are exactly the same: a HUGE hug to all Telltale team that, although work hard to make us happy, sometimes gets almost childishly criticized.

[Avistew]

Okay, let's all have a group hug.

*group hugs*

[Secret Fawful]

Originally Posted by Jake

I guess the lesson learned here could be "Don't surprise people, and don't include any 'extra stuff' with your game, lest the people who are getting different 'extra stuff,' or are getting 'just' what they paid for originally, get pissed off about it," because it seems like that's what every "fan" on the internet's first reaction is: to be outraged that we're providing extra content beyond what was originally advertised. Free DVDs, extra psychic powers, hats for Team Fortress, discounts, entire additional platforms to release the game on, etc. How dare we. Telltale is becoming evil!

Look this is basically my view on it. However, if you started doing awesome stuff like this and then stopped because a couple guys were being a little bitch about it, then to hell with you. There now you know you'll have one customer bitching at you from now on if you do stop doing these awesome things, so take that into consideration as well. Otherwise, keep in mind that plenty of people know you're a good company who takes its customers into consideration, and you aren't universally hated the way people make you look in topics like this.

There's a point where people need to learn how to be content, and look at what they already have instead of bitching because they don't have everything else as well. There have always been exclusives from the beginning of time, and people getting things others couldn't have. Well you know what, instead of CONTINUALLY BITCHING about what you haven't got, take a step back and take a look at what you do have, and if you can't be content now, you never will be.

From the beginning that I've seen this company you've always done what you could to make people happy. That's wonderful, and you wouldn't do that if you were an "evil company". If these so called "loyal customers" knew this company at all, then they would know that and they wouldn't be so quick to change their opinion every damn day, so to hell with them too, the bloody hypocrites. Oh and one more thing to those "loyal customers". Don't your asses get sore at all from crapping bricks so much?

[Avistew]

I'm starting to think that maybe "evil companies" are just nice companies that got fed up with the growing amount of bitching every time they tried to be nice, as they got more and more customers and therefore more and more rage complainers, and who just aren't trying to be nice anymore.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by avistew

I'm starting to think that maybe "evil companies" are just nice companies that got fed up with the growing amount of bitching every time they tried to be nice, as they got more and more customers and therefore more and more rage complainers, and who just aren't trying to be nice anymore.

No, most of them are probably evil.