The "whatever's on your mind" thread

[Comrade Pants]

Originally Posted by Alcoremortis

The misery would be greater if the child went unsupported. She might have to go on wellfare and I believe we have both agreed in a separate conversation that having people hanging on wellfare is a bad deal all around.

We do agree there. However, you're talking about the mother, father AND child being miserable instead of just the mother and child. Is it right? No. But the mother chose to keep the kid so it's on her.

[Chyron8472]

I have a mild headache, atm.

[RetroVortex]

WHO WANTS SOME MUSIC!

(seriously who wants some music? I bought a game music bundle and paid the extra $5 for a giftable code)

[Chyron8472]

me.

[RetroVortex]

I have given the gift of music!

Time to return to the batcave!

[Giant Tope]

Originally Posted by Davies

@Comrade Pants - It seems to me that it's a case of 'you versus the rest of the forum'. I suspect that you would feel differently if you were a woman.

I am a woman and I agree with him to an extent. I don't like being painted as being a victim's class that HONORABLE MEN should white knight around.

A man has absolutely no legal right to a pregnant woman's fate. Even if he wanted to bring the pregnancy to term, she can still get an abortion without his consent. This is good. No one should choose what someone else should do with their bodies and their lives.

This is great that we have come to a point in history where women can have this choice!

On the flip side, however, a man, no matter what he personally feels, is legally forced to raise a child depending on the mother's decision based simply on genetics. He has no right to say that he does not want the child or not.

This is not good. It's pro choice. But only for the woman.

That's incredibly fucked up and incredibly anti-choice.

While we managed to liberate women in a lot of ways, the rights of men have been largely ignored and antiquated because they were considered "privileged" and not needed of change. Not to say that there is no more sexism towards women, but we have gotten to the point that in certain areas, women do actually have more rights than men both on a legal and cultural level. And it really does disturb me that people outright ignore the fact that men get hurt by these old ways and when one speaks up about it, they're told that they should be emotionless robots and just deal with it. If a woman has the same kind of issue, it's considered an issue worth campaigning about.

If a woman wants to have a child, she should bear a child with an individual who would actually WANT to have children. She shouldn't have a child KNOWING that it would be with a guy who is either not ready to have children or does not want to have children then cry when the baby is raised without a father.

And again, those who say *FART FART PEOPLE SHOULD ONLY HAVE SEX IF THEY CAN FACE THE REALITY OF BEING PARENTS FART FART*, you're just frankly a simpleton and I have no words for you.

Many would call the father irresponsible and needing to pay for his consequences. I don't exactly see it that way.

In the end, he was irresponsible for not using protection when he did not have a child, but she was irresponsible for bearing the child and forcing someone, who will likely resent the child and vice versa, to pay for it because she wasn't ready herself.

"But Bri!" you may ask "How do you suggesting on changing it so that this wouldn't happen?" It's the same answer I give for how to lower abortion rates: More open discussions about sexual education for the nation. Teen pregnancy rates are the lowest they've been since the 1950's. This is good. There will always be situations that this happens. It's never easy. I'm sorry, but that shouldn't give the government a legal right to meddle into the lives of others.


On another note! I got my first semi serious knife wound today! I don't need stitches, but it'll likely scar up something awful.

[Comrade Pants]

Well said, Topiary. Well said.

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by Comrade Pants

Be that as it may, they both made a shitty choice by having sex unprotected but it was her shitty choice to keep the baby that she knows she hasn't the means to pay for. Why is it right to spread the misery around?

Why do you consider it a shitty choice for someone to make a decision to keep their baby based on a mother's unconditional love for her child or a person's general appreciation for the value of an individual human life? Certainly, a lack of financial stability can cause stress in one's life, but it's a small price to pay compared to the love a parent has for their child.

If you asked Mortis's dad's cousin whether she ever regretted having her child, I could bet you real money that her answer would be "not a day in my life." Obviously you have no concept that there is more to the decision to keep a baby than cold, unfeeling logic. If you had a friend who was financially struggling after having a baby, and you told said person "you should have killed it," I wouldn't be at all surprised if you were knocked flat on your ass for saying it.


EDIT: For the record, I am on the fence concerning the issue of abortion (except partial-birth abortion which I oppose; or otherwise in the cases of rape and/or danger to the life of the mother). I can see the arguments for and against the issue, but I don't think the answer is clear cut, thus it should be explored on a case-by-case basis. Further, though abortion may be morally wrong, for society to consider it criminal is a totally different issue with which I disagree.

[coolsome]

The news has announced that Whitney Houston has just passed away.

[Comrade Pants]

It's a stupid decision because she can't care for the baby without burdening those around her and she's dumping a child on an already overburdened, overpopulated planet. That's why it's a shitty choice. The idea that abortion is wrong before the second trimester (when the brain isn't even active) should be discarded.

EDIT: Wow! Whitney Houston is dead? That's so shocking. I never expected that.

[Giant Tope]

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

mother's unconditional love

Please don't throw these words around as if they always stick together. I don't doubt that your wife is a loving mother. I wouldn't doubt that your mother was a loving mother. I wouldn't even doubt that most the mothers you know were very loving. That said, mothers are not automatically unconditionally loving creatures. My great grandmother on my mother's side abandoned my grandfather because a fortune teller told her to without much remorse.

After my experience with Job Corps, meeting hundreds of young adults from unfortunate situations, I can tell you that not all mothers are loving people to their children. In fact, my roommate's mother called my roommate not by name, but by "fucking bitch" "little bastard" "worthless speck" and so on. She would openly allow her later married husband to be a peeping tom while she showered and emotionally and physically battered her until she finally ran away. She had to change her name in order to hide from her mother.

This string of words is also often thrown around in child custody cases and keeps children from their fathers who are often viewed as "inferior" as parents. This really pisses me off.

So, again, don't throw these words around like peanut butter and jelly.

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

If you asked Mortis's dad's cousin whether she ever regretted having her child, I could bet you real money that her answer would be "not a day in my life." Obviously you have no concept that there is more to the decision to keep a baby than cold, unfeeling logic. If you had a friend who was financially struggling after having a baby, and you told said person "you should have killed it," I wouldn't be at all surprised if you were knocked flat on your ass for saying it.

Lots of putting words in other people's mouths here, bro.

No one is saying that "oh man, they should have kill the babby hurr durr". It's more like they should think more about the responsibilities of raising a human being. If one can't find the means necessary without leaching the unwilling, they really REALLY ought to consider adoption and the pregnancy shouldn't have ever happened in the first place.

Many women realize that they can't capably raise their child and have to come to the very difficult decision of abortion. People who shame women who do this don't realize how difficult the decision often is. Even people who are pro choice don't realize how difficult it may be. I can say that if I had an unwanted pregnancy I'd probably get an abortion, but I really don't know how I would handle the situation if I actually was in it. In that respect, I do all I can to be safe. However, telling a woman that she is a murderer for coming to this incredibly difficult decision is being a simple-minded asshole, if you ask me.

[Comrade Pants]

Once again, Tope is spot on.

[RetroVortex]

Its true. Women don't always take to children.
Hell, in nature, females can reject their young at pretty much anytime. Most of the time they don't, (at least, not until they can fend for themselves), but its not exactly unheard of.

[Chyron8472]

and again, I'm saying that the issue of abortion is not clear cut.

I'm not saying every mother is loving. I'm saying that a mother can form an undeniable, irrational emotional bond with her child that supercedes logic or concern for the future burdening of others, and it is cold and unfeeling to expect such a woman to treat her child as though it is liability of which she should dispose.

[Giant Tope]

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

'm not saying every mother is loving. I'm saying that a mother can form an undeniable, irrational emotional bond with her child that supercedes logic or concern for the future burdening of others, and it is cold and unfeeling to expect such a woman to treat her child as though it is liability of which she should dispose.

I remember back when people were discussing adoption and such here, I did a bit of research into the matter. I found that the mothers who came to the difficult decision to give their child to adoptive parents often had a better chance to succeed in their careers and their biological children were found to be happier in this situation. Nowadays, it is not uncommon for a biological mother to keep in contact with their children and many find this a suitable option that satiates the need to be in their lives without completely ruining all the other aspects of their own lives.

*shrug*

I'm not saying that it's an easy decision to make, nor is it the only decision they should make, but it is often a wiser one for the sake of both mother and child.

also wow we're really talking about abortion

[supmandude85]

[Giant Tope]

yes pretty much

[RetroVortex]

WOW! The indie music bundle is EXACTLY the sort of music I like.

I already have the Machinarium and Shatter soundtracks, but the other stuff I do not.

Love the chiptune theme of this one. I love chiptunes.

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by Giant Tope

I'm not saying that it's an easy decision to make, nor is it the only decision they should make, but it is often a wiser one for the sake of both mother and child.

From a logical and completely objective point of view, perhaps.

My point, however, is that a parent's decision to keep their child is not necessarily motivated by logic or objectivity, nor should it always be, nor should someone else look down on a parent for making such a decision. In my opinion, for someone to say that a parent not wanting to give up their child is unreasonably selfish and burdensome to society is indicative more of said someone's own issues than it is of the parent in question.

[Giant Tope]

I am constantly saddened by hearing from people who were raised by parents that were clearly not yet or ever ready for them. The saddest thing is that these kids often follow suit of their parents.

I'm talking about: "So what if I'm 16? I can be just a good a' momma as any one else. My mom did it, I can do it too." Proceeding to talk about how they'd teach their children how to shop lift food like their parents did to them as a solution for food costs. I've found that this sort of attitude is stupid common in less fortunate neighborhoods.

If the parent is being a burden to anyone, it's to their child and their children's children.