Telltale Games

apenpaap · 11/09/2010, 11:56 pm

Here's a hypothetical scenario:
Imagine I hypothetically went back into time and prevented someone I don't like from being born. Not by killing his parents or forcing them to get an abortion of course (because that would definitely be murder), and not even by preventing them from getting together. I would simply become a friend of his father in the past, and invite him for a sleepover or a party or something on the night the person whose birth I am trying to prevent was conceived in the original timeline. As such, he will be conceived the next day, or some completely other day. By then, the sperm cell that originally conceived him will be a lot older (as sperm cells only live about 5 days) and slower, or dead. So some other sperm cell will fertilize his mother's egg cell, and someone with different DNA (like a brother or sister of the original person) would be born, and the person I am trying to remove would never be born at all.
Would that be murder?

*Vainamoinen* · 11/10/2010, 12:17 am

By definition, no.

But if you'd like to talk about the moral implications of your action... that's quite another thing. It's a willful act with a plan based on knowledge of the (possible) future.

Harald B · 11/10/2010, 12:22 am

I'm leaning towards no. Look at it this way: by not going through with this plan, you're preventing this potential brother or sister from being born. If your scenario is murder, then you're murdering a dazzling amount of potential people every time you visit the past at all. It would be hardly any better than claiming that you should rape everyone because not doing so constitutes murdering the potential child.

taumel · 11/10/2010, 01:34 am

Beside of that it's physically impossible, this pretty much depends on the laws which would be in force and if travelling back in time would be common, i could imagine this beeing against the laws in several points, one of them beeing murder, you made your intention pretty obvious as well. Beside of this the results of this action could be even worse than what you've hoped for to correct.

Secret Fawful · 11/10/2010, 01:47 am

I would say yes but only if going back in time to prevent yourself from being born is tantamount to suicide.

LuigiHann · 11/10/2010, 01:47 am

I wouldn't say that this would be murder, because murder is a real word that means something specific, but I would say that if you were to deliberately act in the way you describe, with the specific intention of unwriting someone's existence, then it would be just as bad as murder for the same reasons that murder is bad.

Secret Fawful · 11/10/2010, 01:51 am

But doesn't killing someone without specific intent to count as manslaughter? I thought only killing for self-defense or as a soldier under orders(usually) counted as non-murder. So unless you're engaging in a time war (did I just say that?) or the undoing of the persons birth is somehow done with the intent to protect yourself, isn't it still manslaughter?

LuigiHann · 11/10/2010, 01:54 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

But doesn't killing someone without specific intent to count as manslaughter? I thought only killing for self-defense or as a soldier under orders(usually) counted as non-murder. So unless you're engaging in a time war (did I just say that?) or the undoing of the persons birth is somehow done with the intent to protect yourself, isn't it still manslaughter?

I'm just saying that, from a literal standpoint, preventing someone from ever existing is a different thing from killing

taumel · 11/10/2010, 02:00 am

But he already existed, otherwise apenpaap wouldn't have brought up the idea/motivation doing so.

LuigiHann · 11/10/2010, 02:07 am

And that's why it's just as bad as killing him

taumel · 11/10/2010, 02:13 am

It's not just like killing him, it is killing him. Instead of a knife or a gun he just takes the knowledge about the past and a time machine.

Ribs · 11/10/2010, 02:25 am

Yes, as you'd be guilty of TIME CRIME!

Secret Fawful · 11/10/2010, 02:37 am

Time murder is a tough crime to pull off. The hours are killer.

*GuruGuru214* · 11/10/2010, 04:01 am

...I'm sorry.

Secret Fawful · 11/10/2010, 04:09 am

Guru's sorry we can't hear him over the sound of how awesome he is.

jeeno0142 · 11/10/2010, 04:58 am

I think it would be a sort of murder. You knew that he existed, that he had a life with certain likes and dislikes, his own opinions and his own family. Everyone else may not remember him, but you will have to live with the guilt of having erased him. Also, if you stop him from being born, then you stop all his potential children from being born, and all their potential children from being born and so on and so on. It's not just a murder of sorts, but a mass murder of sorts.

doodo! · 11/10/2010, 06:05 am

What if some one went back in time and tired to prevent your birth? I think it would come very natural to you to call it murder.

Gil Grisom is the only awesome CSI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vainamoinen

By definition, no.

But if you'd like to talk about the moral implications of your action... that's quite another thing. It's a willful act with a plan based on knowledge of the (possible) future.

Yeah that^

Brainiac · 11/10/2010, 06:18 am

As I recall, Dr. Silberman in the first Terminator movie referred to the SkyNet plan to deal with John Connor as a "retroactive abortion." That's a whole other can of worms right there.

doodo! · 11/10/2010, 06:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brainiac

As I recall, Dr. Silberman in the first Terminator movie referred to the SkyNet plan to deal with John Connor as a "retroactive abortion." That's a whole other can of worms right there.

Yeah, you just opened the gates, this place will be locked tight as soon as it burns to the ground and admins have to prevent visitors from entering so that they don't fall through the crisp floors to the old basement.

Giant Tope · 11/10/2010, 11:10 am

It can only be called murder if going back in time to prevent a building being built is called demolition.

what's the point of this topic again?

11/09/2010, 11:56 pm	#1
apenpaap Mitey pirate Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 843	Is it murder to go back in time to prevent someone from being born? Here's a hypothetical scenario: Imagine I hypothetically went back into time and prevented someone I don't like from being born. Not by killing his parents or forcing them to get an abortion of course (because that would definitely be murder), and not even by preventing them from getting together. I would simply become a friend of his father in the past, and invite him for a sleepover or a party or something on the night the person whose birth I am trying to prevent was conceived in the original timeline. As such, he will be conceived the next day, or some completely other day. By then, the sperm cell that originally conceived him will be a lot older (as sperm cells only live about 5 days) and slower, or dead. So some other sperm cell will fertilize his mother's egg cell, and someone with different DNA (like a brother or sister of the original person) would be born, and the person I am trying to remove would never be born at all. Would that be murder?

11/10/2010, 12:17 am	#2
Vainamoinen Community Moderator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 6,834	By definition, no. But if you'd like to talk about the moral implications of your action... that's quite another thing. It's a willful act with a plan based on knowledge of the (possible) future. __________________ Moderators on the TTG forums are all volunteers from the community and still belong to the community. They are not employees of the company. The opinions expressed in their posts are those of individual fans and must not be confused with official company statements.

11/10/2010, 12:22 am	#3
Harald B Egregious Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,450	I'm leaning towards no. Look at it this way: by not going through with this plan, you're preventing this potential brother or sister from being born. If your scenario is murder, then you're murdering a dazzling amount of potential people every time you visit the past at all. It would be hardly any better than claiming that you should rape everyone because not doing so constitutes murdering the potential child. __________________ although we do still have a time machine, so I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility. Forgot what T.H.E.M. stands for? Need the lyrics to the War Song? Visit the Sam & Max wiki!

11/10/2010, 01:34 am	#4
taumel Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,654	Beside of that it's physically impossible, this pretty much depends on the laws which would be in force and if travelling back in time would be common, i could imagine this beeing against the laws in several points, one of them beeing murder, you made your intention pretty obvious as well. Beside of this the results of this action could be even worse than what you've hoped for to correct. Last edited by taumel; 11/10/2010 at 01:54 am.

11/10/2010, 01:47 am	#5
Secret Fawful Fearless Oathbreaker Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Stuck In This Pose Sexiness: Off The Charts! Posts: 5,225	I would say yes but only if going back in time to prevent yourself from being born is tantamount to suicide. __________________ You're the greatest. The greatest! - GuruGuru214 You'll go far in this life, Fawful. - That Guy In The Wheelchair Fawful, you sir, are made of win. - mgrant I love the Fawful! - Davies You're like a bad comedian. - monkey_05_06 ** you. - Giant Tope Why do you have to be such an hole? - Avistew You're a miserable little weasel who derives pleasure from being a *. - AllenB Grow up. - Mike Haley Now Playing: ~~Space Quest 0: Replicated~~ - ~~Space Quest I EGA: The Sarien Encounter~~ - ~~Space Quest I VGA: The Sarien Encounter~~ - Space Quest II EGA: Vohaul's Revenge** - Space Quest II VGA: Vohaul's Revenge - Space Quest III: The Pirates of Pestulon - Space Quest IV: Roger Wilco and the Time Rippers - Space Quest V: The Next Mutation - Space Quest VI: Roger Wilco in the Spinal Frontier - Space Quest: The Lost Chapter

11/10/2010, 01:47 am	#6
LuigiHann Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,686	I wouldn't say that this would be murder, because murder is a real word that means something specific, but I would say that if you were to deliberately act in the way you describe, with the specific intention of unwriting someone's existence, then it would be just as bad as murder for the same reasons that murder is bad. __________________ "I think it's the idea that counts, not the actual method. As long as you set out to cause a horrible death through insects eating the person, you're good." - apenpaap

11/10/2010, 01:51 am	#7
Secret Fawful Fearless Oathbreaker Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Stuck In This Pose Sexiness: Off The Charts! Posts: 5,225	But doesn't killing someone without specific intent to count as manslaughter? I thought only killing for self-defense or as a soldier under orders(usually) counted as non-murder. So unless you're engaging in a time war (did I just say that?) or the undoing of the persons birth is somehow done with the intent to protect yourself, isn't it still manslaughter? __________________ You're the greatest. The greatest! - GuruGuru214 You'll go far in this life, Fawful. - That Guy In The Wheelchair Fawful, you sir, are made of win. - mgrant I love the Fawful! - Davies You're like a bad comedian. - monkey_05_06 ** you. - Giant Tope Why do you have to be such an hole? - Avistew You're a miserable little weasel who derives pleasure from being a *. - AllenB Grow up. - Mike Haley Now Playing: ~~Space Quest 0: Replicated~~ - ~~Space Quest I EGA: The Sarien Encounter~~ - ~~Space Quest I VGA: The Sarien Encounter~~ - Space Quest II EGA: Vohaul's Revenge** - Space Quest II VGA: Vohaul's Revenge - Space Quest III: The Pirates of Pestulon - Space Quest IV: Roger Wilco and the Time Rippers - Space Quest V: The Next Mutation - Space Quest VI: Roger Wilco in the Spinal Frontier - Space Quest: The Lost Chapter

11/10/2010, 02:00 am	#9
taumel Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,654	But he already existed, otherwise apenpaap wouldn't have brought up the idea/motivation doing so.

11/10/2010, 02:07 am	#10
LuigiHann Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,686	And that's why it's just as bad as killing him __________________ "I think it's the idea that counts, not the actual method. As long as you set out to cause a horrible death through insects eating the person, you're good." - apenpaap

11/10/2010, 02:13 am	#11
taumel Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,654	It's not just like killing him, it is killing him. Instead of a knife or a gun he just takes the knowledge about the past and a time machine.

11/10/2010, 02:37 am	#13
Secret Fawful Fearless Oathbreaker Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Stuck In This Pose Sexiness: Off The Charts! Posts: 5,225	Time murder is a tough crime to pull off. The hours are killer. __________________ You're the greatest. The greatest! - GuruGuru214 You'll go far in this life, Fawful. - That Guy In The Wheelchair Fawful, you sir, are made of win. - mgrant I love the Fawful! - Davies You're like a bad comedian. - monkey_05_06 ** you. - Giant Tope Why do you have to be such an hole? - Avistew You're a miserable little weasel who derives pleasure from being a *. - AllenB Grow up. - Mike Haley Now Playing: ~~Space Quest 0: Replicated~~ - ~~Space Quest I EGA: The Sarien Encounter~~ - ~~Space Quest I VGA: The Sarien Encounter~~ - Space Quest II EGA: Vohaul's Revenge** - Space Quest II VGA: Vohaul's Revenge - Space Quest III: The Pirates of Pestulon - Space Quest IV: Roger Wilco and the Time Rippers - Space Quest V: The Next Mutation - Space Quest VI: Roger Wilco in the Spinal Frontier - Space Quest: The Lost Chapter

11/10/2010, 04:01 am	#14
GuruGuru214 Crazy Windmill Mod Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Kakariko Windmill Windmill Status: Going Around Posts: 6,377	...I'm sorry.

11/10/2010, 04:09 am	#15
Secret Fawful Fearless Oathbreaker Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Stuck In This Pose Sexiness: Off The Charts! Posts: 5,225	Guru's sorry we can't hear him over the sound of how awesome he is. __________________ You're the greatest. The greatest! - GuruGuru214 You'll go far in this life, Fawful. - That Guy In The Wheelchair Fawful, you sir, are made of win. - mgrant I love the Fawful! - Davies You're like a bad comedian. - monkey_05_06 ** you. - Giant Tope Why do you have to be such an hole? - Avistew You're a miserable little weasel who derives pleasure from being a *. - AllenB Grow up. - Mike Haley Now Playing: ~~Space Quest 0: Replicated~~ - ~~Space Quest I EGA: The Sarien Encounter~~ - ~~Space Quest I VGA: The Sarien Encounter~~ - Space Quest II EGA: Vohaul's Revenge** - Space Quest II VGA: Vohaul's Revenge - Space Quest III: The Pirates of Pestulon - Space Quest IV: Roger Wilco and the Time Rippers - Space Quest V: The Next Mutation - Space Quest VI: Roger Wilco in the Spinal Frontier - Space Quest: The Lost Chapter

11/10/2010, 04:58 am	#16
jeeno0142 Love is for the Living. Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Liverpool, England Posts: 1,122	I think it would be a sort of murder. You knew that he existed, that he had a life with certain likes and dislikes, his own opinions and his own family. Everyone else may not remember him, but you will have to live with the guilt of having erased him. Also, if you stop him from being born, then you stop all his potential children from being born, and all their potential children from being born and so on and so on. It's not just a murder of sorts, but a mass murder of sorts.

11/10/2010, 06:18 am	#18
Brainiac Game Guru Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Somewhere in Ohio... Posts: 408	Terminator As I recall, Dr. Silberman in the first Terminator movie referred to the SkyNet plan to deal with John Connor as a "retroactive abortion." That's a whole other can of worms right there. __________________ There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR! Official Member of the VGL Street Team

11/10/2010, 11:10 am	#20
Giant Tope bashful little whaleshark Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Portland Posts: 2,178	It can only be called murder if going back in time to prevent a building being built is called demolition. what's the point of this topic again? __________________ I am a dinosaur. BUT! i am hiding.

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