Telltale Games

ragdoll556 · 01/12/2011, 06:11 pm

This concept might seem a little dark for Sam and Max, but was Max, on a subconscious level, feeling suicidal? It seems that Max felt disgusted with himself and his lifestyle and wanted it to end. But Max, being a postive lagomorph, repressed these feelings and never showed them to anyone(and seemed to be unaware of them himself).This Self-disgust was eventually personified as the Superego, who acted out Max's suicidal urges. But, like l said before, this idea seems a bit dark for such an upbeat series, and I'm probably overthinking it. Still, let me know what you guys think.

Gohaku · 01/12/2011, 06:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ragdoll556

This concept might seem a little dark for Sam and Max, but was Max, on a subconscious level, feeling suicidal? It seems that Max felt disgusted with himself and his lifestyle and wanted it to end. But Max, being a postive lagomorph, repressed these feelings and never showed them to anyone(and seemed to be unaware of them himself).This Self-disgust was eventually personified as the Superego, who acted out Max's suicidal urges. But, like l said before, this idea seems a bit dark for such an upbeat series, and I'm probably overthinking it. Still, let me know what you guys think.

That's precisely what the 3rd season is about...

But you just put it all in perspective. Also, the themes in this season are a bit darker, with death and nostalgia jokes all over the place. Not to mention 'Noir Sam's' appearance.
I personally think you've hit the nail on the head. I agree.

crfh · 01/12/2011, 08:46 pm

Max has an abnormal psychology, and maybe he sort of hates himself sometimes for being too ADD ridden to enjoy the finer things in life.

This suicidal impulse is normally expressed through his completely reckless behaviour, tho.

Max's superego was only able to take control because the rest of his mind went feral when he turned into Maxthulhu.

Sausy Gibbon · 01/12/2011, 09:17 pm

I think it's based on the Freudian theory of the id, ego and the superego. The id is the part of the mind that sends out instinctual desires and drive, the ego rationalises these desires and mediates between id and reality, the superego moralises, criticises and prohibits the drives, fantasies, feellings and actions. Max however only acts upon the instinct of the id, ignoring the superego, the superego becomes so depressed with being useless he tries to kill Max off. I think Purcell said that Max is a representation of pure id, so the superego I believe has become a semi dectacted part of Max' phsyce working to undermine his mind from with in.

DAISHI · 01/13/2011, 09:30 am

Partially agreed. The superego is not the final decision maker or the overall person's perception of themselves however. It has no more sway than Max's ID. The superego may be disgusted with the ID's behavior while the ID finds the superego ridiculous. They meet somewhere in the middle, in Max's ego. So maybe a part of him is self loathing, but another part doesn't particularly care.

Falanca · 01/13/2011, 10:51 am

I also think the pure id part of Max is actually his Maxzilla self. When Max turned into his id counterpart, his superego became completely independent from id (or more like both were torn apart). Ego generally is given birth by the common points of id and superego and now that both id and superego were independent from each other, there was nothing that would construct the ego part.

Max is close to id, but cannot be pure id since he's able to walk, talk, and even think rationally (or irrationally, even). I mean there are still some really basic stuff that superego takes some credit.

Player_2 · 01/13/2011, 03:56 pm

It occurred to me about a week ago that although we've been treating the Narrator like a separate entity who had this nefarious plot to destroy Max, he's really a part of his subconscious, not some other being. So that would imply that on some subconscious level, Max may have suicidal tendencies. Which realy disturbed me the first time I thought of it.

DAISHI · 01/14/2011, 07:06 am

I can feel my psychology degree going to work.

Fly · 01/14/2011, 02:08 pm

I thought of this, but I wasn't sure if it was 1) one of those 'wait, that plot point really means...' things that is unintentional or 2) one of those 'wait, that plot point really means...' things which is deliberate. Either way, a (n ignored) component of Max's psyche has given up on life and wants both itself and Max dead, and there's not really much of a way of un-darking that once you think of it. See also: Fridge Horror.

Not going to argue for a second that this was any of the writers's intentions... but at least having a part of his brain desperately longing for the sweet oblivion of death explains Max's night terrors.

...Other totally meaningless, stupid thoughts: If the Narrator is Max's Superego and Max himself is the Ego, does Max's Id normally hang around in Max's brain and watch TV or harrass the Narrator or write horrible fanfiction about Flint Paper or whatever? What does he manifest as?

Player_2 · 01/14/2011, 02:38 pm

I'd just like to take this opportunity to mention that I was the one to originally post "Fridge Horror" in Max's character sheet for TV Tropes.

Fly · 01/14/2011, 02:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Player_2

I'd just like to take this opportunity to mention that I was the one to originally post "Fridge Horror" in Max's character sheet for TV Tropes.

Creepy as this sounds, I actually guessed it was you - a lot of the stuff you post about reminds me of that description you gave in his character sheet.

Player_2 · 01/14/2011, 02:45 pm

I didn't want people thinking that I just ripped off TV Tropes when I was the one who posted it.

queen_of_the_lobsters · 01/14/2011, 08:12 pm

I do not believe that Max has repressed suicidal urges The Narrator, yes. Max, no. The Super-Ego is in fact a part of the human mind, in Freudian terms, but it is a part that is imprinted onto the mind by authority figures (I.e. Parents, teachers, tradition, and the law and it's enforcers). The Super-Ego is also created and used to control a person and check their id's drive. Since no person can create their own Super-Ego, at least not entirely, then the Super-Ego is treated more like a force controlling the person from without than from within.

Max has been shown to be at odds with his Super-Ego, very willingly fighting it's influence. He mentions having his conscience surgically removed and advising Sam not to listen to his morals. The Narrator abhors Max because he always ignored him, especially when he attempted to make him more high-brow. In this case, the conflict between the two is not a matter of Max supressing his suicidal thoughts so much as Yge Narrator unconsciously taking on Max's traits. Max's Super-Ego has grown so neglected and desperate for attention that it identified with its aggressor, the Id that Max consciously strives to satisfy.

Gohaku · 01/14/2011, 09:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by queen_of_the_lobsters

I do not believe that Max has repressed suicidal urges The Narrator, yes. Max, no. The Super-Ego is in fact a part of the human mind, in Freudian terms, but it is a part that is imprinted onto the mind by authority figures (I.e. Parents, teachers, tradition, and the law and it's enforcers). The Super-Ego is also created and used to control a person and check their id's drive. Since no person can create their own Super-Ego, at least not entirely, then the Super-Ego is treated more like a force controlling the person from without than from within.

Max has been shown to be at odds with his Super-Ego, very willingly fighting it's influence. He mentions having his conscience surgically removed and advising Sam not to listen to his morals. The Narrator abhors Max because he always ignored him, especially when he attempted to make him more high-brow. In this case, the conflict between the two is not a matter of Max supressing his suicidal thoughts so much as Yge Narrator unconsciously taking on Max's traits. Max's Super-Ego has grown so neglected and desperate for attention that it identified with its aggressor, the Id that Max consciously strives to satisfy.

The super ego is still a part Max's psyche, though. If max fully rejected and denied his super ego, then technically it shouldn't even be there. Max has had moments where he'd even question his own actions too...
I also argue that the super ego is created by oneself, simply because of the fact that one decides what to do, unconsciously or consciously.

Alas, I think we're now looking too much into it :/ But I like these kinds of conversations!

redm · 01/15/2011, 07:52 pm

how did we know that max didn't kill himself anticipating that a different version of himself would show up after the failed cloning attempt

Secret Fawful · 01/15/2011, 10:51 pm

coolsome · 01/16/2011, 01:00 am

Thats my new wall paper now

Secret Fawful · 01/16/2011, 01:30 am

I've printed it off 1000 times and made it the wallpaper in my house.

GeorgeC · 01/16/2011, 01:31 am

Was Sam suicidal too if he did the same thing before? You know when Max said he had to destroy a Giant Sam before going through the time machine again

All of this is really deep for such a game

redm · 01/16/2011, 09:58 pm

I wonder how max got the timecard he needed to show up at that spot

01/12/2011, 06:11 pm	#1
ragdoll556 Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 57	Max's psychological state This concept might seem a little dark for Sam and Max, but was Max, on a subconscious level, feeling suicidal? It seems that Max felt disgusted with himself and his lifestyle and wanted it to end. But Max, being a postive lagomorph, repressed these feelings and never showed them to anyone(and seemed to be unaware of them himself).This Self-disgust was eventually personified as the Superego, who acted out Max's suicidal urges. But, like l said before, this idea seems a bit dark for such an upbeat series, and I'm probably overthinking it. Still, let me know what you guys think.

01/12/2011, 08:46 pm	#3
crfh Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mexico Posts: 708	Max has an abnormal psychology, and maybe he sort of hates himself sometimes for being too ADD ridden to enjoy the finer things in life. This suicidal impulse is normally expressed through his completely reckless behaviour, tho. Max's superego was only able to take control because the rest of his mind went feral when he turned into Maxthulhu. __________________ Power Nap A guy who has to sleep in a world that never sleeps anymore. College Roomies from Hell!!! Mutants, tentacles, Satan, gun-toting girls.

01/13/2011, 10:51 am	#6
Falanca Hasn't Played TWDG Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,239	I also think the pure id part of Max is actually his Maxzilla self. When Max turned into his id counterpart, his superego became completely independent from id (or more like both were torn apart). Ego generally is given birth by the common points of id and superego and now that both id and superego were independent from each other, there was nothing that would construct the ego part. Max is close to id, but cannot be pure id since he's able to walk, talk, and even think rationally (or irrationally, even). I mean there are still some really basic stuff that superego takes some credit. Last edited by Falanca; 01/13/2011 at 10:56 am.

01/13/2011, 03:56 pm	#7
Player_2 Yes, I Am a Girl Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 453	It occurred to me about a week ago that although we've been treating the Narrator like a separate entity who had this nefarious plot to destroy Max, he's really a part of his subconscious, not some other being. So that would imply that on some subconscious level, Max may have suicidal tendencies. Which realy disturbed me the first time I thought of it. __________________ In Memoriam RIP: Real Max

01/14/2011, 02:38 pm	#10
Player_2 Yes, I Am a Girl Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 453	I'd just like to take this opportunity to mention that I was the one to originally post "Fridge Horror" in Max's character sheet for TV Tropes. __________________ In Memoriam RIP: Real Max

01/12/2011, 09:17 pm	#4
Sausy Gibbon Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: In a cave Posts: 687	I think it's based on the Freudian theory of the id, ego and the superego. The id is the part of the mind that sends out instinctual desires and drive, the ego rationalises these desires and mediates between id and reality, the superego moralises, criticises and prohibits the drives, fantasies, feellings and actions. Max however only acts upon the instinct of the id, ignoring the superego, the superego becomes so depressed with being useless he tries to kill Max off. I think Purcell said that Max is a representation of pure id, so the superego I believe has become a semi dectacted part of Max' phsyce working to undermine his mind from with in.

01/13/2011, 09:30 am	#5
DAISHI TELLTALE STEALTH NINJA Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 3,118	Partially agreed. The superego is not the final decision maker or the overall person's perception of themselves however. It has no more sway than Max's ID. The superego may be disgusted with the ID's behavior while the ID finds the superego ridiculous. They meet somewhere in the middle, in Max's ego. So maybe a part of him is self loathing, but another part doesn't particularly care.

01/14/2011, 07:06 am	#8
DAISHI TELLTALE STEALTH NINJA Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 3,118	I can feel my psychology degree going to work.

01/14/2011, 02:08 pm	#9
Fly Pretentious Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 80	I thought of this, but I wasn't sure if it was 1) one of those 'wait, that plot point really means...' things that is unintentional or 2) one of those 'wait, that plot point really means...' things which is deliberate. Either way, a (n ignored) component of Max's psyche has given up on life and wants both itself and Max dead, and there's not really much of a way of un-darking that once you think of it. See also: Fridge Horror. Not going to argue for a second that this was any of the writers's intentions... but at least having a part of his brain desperately longing for the sweet oblivion of death explains Max's night terrors. ...Other totally meaningless, stupid thoughts: If the Narrator is Max's Superego and Max himself is the Ego, does Max's Id normally hang around in Max's brain and watch TV or harrass the Narrator or write horrible fanfiction about Flint Paper or whatever? What does he manifest as?

01/14/2011, 02:45 pm	#12
Player_2 Yes, I Am a Girl Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 453	I didn't want people thinking that I just ripped off TV Tropes when I was the one who posted it. __________________ In Memoriam RIP: Real Max

01/14/2011, 08:12 pm	#13
queen_of_the_lobsters Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 351	I do not believe that Max has repressed suicidal urges The Narrator, yes. Max, no. The Super-Ego is in fact a part of the human mind, in Freudian terms, but it is a part that is imprinted onto the mind by authority figures (I.e. Parents, teachers, tradition, and the law and it's enforcers). The Super-Ego is also created and used to control a person and check their id's drive. Since no person can create their own Super-Ego, at least not entirely, then the Super-Ego is treated more like a force controlling the person from without than from within. Max has been shown to be at odds with his Super-Ego, very willingly fighting it's influence. He mentions having his conscience surgically removed and advising Sam not to listen to his morals. The Narrator abhors Max because he always ignored him, especially when he attempted to make him more high-brow. In this case, the conflict between the two is not a matter of Max supressing his suicidal thoughts so much as Yge Narrator unconsciously taking on Max's traits. Max's Super-Ego has grown so neglected and desperate for attention that it identified with its aggressor, the Id that Max consciously strives to satisfy.

01/15/2011, 07:52 pm	#15
redm Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 88	how did we know that max didn't kill himself anticipating that a different version of himself would show up after the failed cloning attempt

01/15/2011, 10:51 pm	#16
Secret Fawful Fearless Oathbreaker Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Stuck In This Pose Sexiness: Off The Charts! Posts: 5,225	__________________ You're the greatest. The greatest! - GuruGuru214 You'll go far in this life, Fawful. - That Guy In The Wheelchair Fawful, you sir, are made of win. - mgrant I love the Fawful! - Davies You're like a bad comedian. - monkey_05_06 ** you. - Giant Tope Why do you have to be such an hole? - Avistew You're a miserable little weasel who derives pleasure from being a *. - AllenB Grow up. - Mike Haley Now Playing: ~~Space Quest 0: Replicated~~ - ~~Space Quest I EGA: The Sarien Encounter~~ - ~~Space Quest I VGA: The Sarien Encounter~~ - Space Quest II EGA: Vohaul's Revenge** - Space Quest II VGA: Vohaul's Revenge - Space Quest III: The Pirates of Pestulon - Space Quest IV: Roger Wilco and the Time Rippers - Space Quest V: The Next Mutation - Space Quest VI: Roger Wilco in the Spinal Frontier - Space Quest: The Lost Chapter

01/16/2011, 01:30 am	#18
Secret Fawful Fearless Oathbreaker Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Stuck In This Pose Sexiness: Off The Charts! Posts: 5,225	I've printed it off 1000 times and made it the wallpaper in my house. __________________ You're the greatest. The greatest! - GuruGuru214 You'll go far in this life, Fawful. - That Guy In The Wheelchair Fawful, you sir, are made of win. - mgrant I love the Fawful! - Davies You're like a bad comedian. - monkey_05_06 ** you. - Giant Tope Why do you have to be such an hole? - Avistew You're a miserable little weasel who derives pleasure from being a *. - AllenB Grow up. - Mike Haley Now Playing: ~~Space Quest 0: Replicated~~ - ~~Space Quest I EGA: The Sarien Encounter~~ - ~~Space Quest I VGA: The Sarien Encounter~~ - Space Quest II EGA: Vohaul's Revenge** - Space Quest II VGA: Vohaul's Revenge - Space Quest III: The Pirates of Pestulon - Space Quest IV: Roger Wilco and the Time Rippers - Space Quest V: The Next Mutation - Space Quest VI: Roger Wilco in the Spinal Frontier - Space Quest: The Lost Chapter

01/16/2011, 01:31 am	#19
GeorgeC Thread killer! Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: England Posts: 487	Was Sam suicidal too if he did the same thing before? You know when Max said he had to destroy a Giant Sam before going through the time machine again All of this is really deep for such a game

01/16/2011, 09:58 pm	#20
redm Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 88	I wonder how max got the timecard he needed to show up at that spot

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